Is it time to eject pitchers for HBP?

[wsnydes]

1 minute ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Pitchers could have easily avoided this situation by, you know, not cheating constantly and egregiously.

The 2021 version of baseball is the worst I've experienced since I began watching close to 40 years ago. A large reason it's so bad is because pitchers have used illegal substances to gain an even larger advantage over batters than they already had in the modern game.

I don't have much sympathy for their bitching and moaning right now. It's their own damned fault they're in this position (MLB also gets their fair share of blame for allowing it to become this bad and widespread but I've numbed myself to the fact MLB is feckless  when it comes to the quality of the game).

I don't really have much sympathy either.  They made the bed, so to speak.

I do think something needs to be done about controlling managers calling for checks though.  I can see that getting out of hand quickly.  As a fan, I don't need to see Scherzer inspected three times.  That's ridiculous without obvious visual violations.  But, I digress.  Different topic for a different thread.

[LVTwinsfan]

MLB seems to come down harder on pitchers, who have not proven themselves as being the only cheaters in the game. How long did they allow steroids before they overreacted and now the banned substances list is a ridiculously hypocritical reaction to a problem they allowed for years. And what about the Astros? Their response to that situation was weak. P

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 minute ago, wsnydes said:

I do think something needs to be done about controlling managers calling for checks though.  I can see that getting out of hand quickly.  As a fan, I don't need to see Scherzer inspected three times.  That's ridiculous without obvious visual violations.  But, I digress.  Different topic for a different thread.

If umpires are doing inspections every inning, there's no real reason to allow managers to call for... an... inspection.

[LVTwinsfan]

For years they’ve been trying to “improve” the game by trying to get more offense. I’m sorry but pitchers need to be allowed to pitch inside, and yes batters will get hit. Why not eject a hitter for his long follow through that hits the catcher, usually in the head? You want a fool proof solution to all this. Get rid of pitchers and just play tee  ball. I disagree with these constant inspections, there has to be a better way. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

2 minutes ago, LVTwinsfan said:

I disagree with these constant inspections, there has to be a better way. 

I don't mind the inspections for now as a "STOP CHEATING TODAY" response.

But it's a pretty terrible long term solution and should not extend past the 2021 season.

[LVTwinsfan]

44 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

 

But it's a pretty terrible long term solution and should not extend past the 2021 season.

I agree, and my guess is it won’t. I don’t think MLB will be happy though until they find a way to force pitchers to throw hittable  pitches, I’m surprised they haven’t banned the shift yet.

[LVTwinsfan]

Scherzer can’t be that good. He must be cheating. And the umpire actually rubbing his forehead to see if he has a foreign substance. That’s inappropriate and shouldn’t be allowed, good thing they didn’t suspect he had a foreign substance on his junk 

[LVTwinsfan]

I guess my biggest issue with the inspections is the public spectacle they have made of this. I’m already tired of sports writers telling pitchers to grow up. They’re being treated like criminals. Do all pitchers cheat? I doubt it.  They need to find a better way in a hurry or their plan to make the game “better” is going to backfire in a big way. As far as I’m concerned it already has.

[FritzDahmus]

Because a possible injury is involved......the punishment should reflect that. A free trip to 1st is not enough....some of the time.

Most of the time the umpires will not know the extent of the injury incurred by the batter [if any].....so all punishments should be the same....for each HBP that occurs. As a prevention and giving some balance or justice.

In other sports, if a player commits an offense that is there to prevent injuries....the penalty can be quite severe. It should be that way in baseball as well. This is something that is changing in sports. Concussions, PTSD, etc....

How is it right....that a pitcher who throws inside and hits a batters back foot....gets the same penalty as the pitcher that had an inside fastball get away from them....and caused a concussion to a batter. Silly.....very silly. Needs to be addressed. 

But it won't be - because the Yankees, Mets, and Dodgers don't want it to be addressed.

[LVTwinsfan]

12 minutes ago, FritzDahmus said:

Because a possible injury is involved......the punishment should reflect that. A free trip to 1st is not enough....some of the time.

Most of the time the umpires will not know the extent of the injury incurred by the batter [if any].....so all punishments should be the same....for each HBP that occurs. As a prevention and giving some balance or justice.

In other sports, if a player commits an offense that is there to prevent injuries....the penalty can be quite severe. It should be that way in baseball as well. This is something that is changing in sports. Concussions, PTSD, etc....

How is it right....that a pitcher who throws inside and hits a batters back foot....gets the same penalty as the pitcher that had an inside fastball get away from them....and caused a concussion to a batter. Silly.....very silly. Needs to be addressed. 

But it won't be - because the Yankees, Mets, and Dodgers don't want it to be addressed.

Really? What about a line drive that’s hits a pitcher, shouldn’t the batter be punished because there’s an injury involved, or when a batters follow through hits the catcher? It’s all part of the game, players will get injured

[Brock Beauchamp]

3 minutes ago, LVTwinsfan said:

Really? What about a line drive that’s hits a pitcher, shouldn’t the batter be punished because there’s an injury involved, or when a batters follow through hits the catcher? It’s all part of the game, players will get injured

Come on, you know the pitcher has far more control over the ball than a hitter does. It’s a bad comparison.

BTW, out of curiosity I looked up deGrom’s HBP numbers. They’re basically non-existent and he’s the hardest throwing, best pitcher in baseball. Just one data point to show “easy” or “natural” velocity isn’t linked to wildness. deGrom is the best pitcher on the planet and topped out at 7 HBP in a season in 2018 (none so far in 2021). 

[LVTwinsfan]

23 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Come on, you know the pitcher has far more control over the ball than a hitter does. It’s a bad comparison.

BTW, out of curiosity I looked up deGrom’s HBP numbers. They’re basically non-existent and he’s the hardest throwing, best pitcher in baseball. Just one data point to show “easy” or “natural” velocity isn’t linked to wildness. deGrom is the best pitcher on the planet and topped out at 7 HBP in a season in 2018 (none so far in 2021). 

Ok, what about a batter who reaches out over the plate because he thinks the pitch is going to be away, but instead it’s inside. We’re talking inches here. So far of all the ways for a player to get injured in the game, the pitcher is the only one who gets any kind of penalty, the batter gets awarded 1st base. Throwing at a hitter intentionally  should be dealt with severely, that I can agree with, but unless it’s intentional you have to call it an accident and let it go. This is the most anti pitcher thread I’ve ever seen

[Brock Beauchamp]

36 minutes ago, LVTwinsfan said:

Ok, what about a batter who reaches out over the plate because he thinks the pitch is going to be away, but instead it’s inside. We’re talking inches here. So far of all the ways for a player to get injured in the game, the pitcher is the only one who gets any kind of penalty, the batter gets awarded 1st base. Throwing at a hitter intentionally  should be dealt with severely, that I can agree with, but unless it’s intentional you have to call it an accident and let it go. This is the most anti pitcher thread I’ve ever seen

As I said earlier, then make the batters stand off the plate more than is currently enforced and increase the punishment for HBP. This doesn't have to be a one-sided solution.

[LVTwinsfan]

15 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

As I said earlier, then make the batters stand off the plate more than is currently enforced and increase the punishment for HBP. This doesn't have to be a one-sided solution.

Well you’re in the minority here, I took the pole, 50% of the respondents say no increased penalties for pitchers, and I’m guessing mostly Twins fans, so it’s too bad for Buxton but that’s how it goes

[Brock Beauchamp]

9 minutes ago, LVTwinsfan said:

Well you’re in the minority here, I took the pole, 50% of the respondents say no increased penalties for pitchers, and I’m guessing mostly Twins fans, so it’s too bad for Buxton but that’s how it goes

Right now the poll is split exactly down the middle between no change and increased penalties so I’m not sure how I’m in the minority. 

[LVTwinsfan]

2 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Right now the poll is split exactly down the middle between no change and increased penalties so I’m not sure how I’m in the minority. 

Whatever other option you would choose besides not increasing the penalty would be a minority opinion, unless you claim all the other options.. The second most popular was eject the pitcher after 2 HBP’s, around 28%. That’s a minority

[LVTwinsfan]

It’s all for nothing really anyway. No amount of rule changes will keep Buxton from getting hurt. Not counting last season, Buxton averages around 80 games a season, he’s an aggressive player, with a bit of bad luck. He gets hurt too much

[LVTwinsfan]

Umpires have total discretion to eject a pitcher if he hits a batter and deems it intentional. That’s a pretty strict rule given the fact that “intentional” is not always clear. I think we’re good here. I don’t see how more rules will make the game better. This whole pitcher inspections is a clown show.

[Brock Beauchamp]

57 minutes ago, LVTwinsfan said:

Whatever other option you would choose besides not increasing the penalty would be a minority opinion, unless you claim all the other options.. The second most popular was eject the pitcher after 2 HBP’s, around 28%. That’s a minority

If we're going to be pedantic about it, I'm fine with any of the change options, I merely prefer two of them over the third. So I'm technically in the majority now (the no change option just went under 50%).

*pushes glasses up nose*

[LVTwinsfan]

Money talks, how about fines? Have a panel review the video and decide on the punishment, if any with a fine or suspension if the case warrants it. I’m against players just being thrown out of games, then managers get involved and they get thrown out. Umpires have too much power and many of them love to show it off. 

[LVTwinsfan]

5 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

If we're going to be pedantic about it, I'm fine with any of the change options, I merely prefer two of them over the third. So I'm technically in the majority now (the no change option just went under 50%).

*pushes glasses up nose*

No punishment is still the most popular option, but whatever

[Brock Beauchamp]

3 minutes ago, LVTwinsfan said:

Money talks, how about fines? Have a panel review the video and decide on the punishment, if any with a fine or suspension if the case warrants it. I’m against players just being thrown out of games, then managers get involved and they get thrown out. Umpires have too much power and many of them love to show it off. 

The problem with fines is that the MLBPA gets their say when money becomes involved, which throws a wrench into the works and makes useful change almost impossible to achieve. Like so many aspects of today's world, the MLBPA and MLB often seem to oppose each other because they can, not because they should.

[LVTwinsfan]

2 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

The problem with fines is that the MLBPA gets their say when money becomes involved, which throws a wrench into the works and makes useful change almost impossible to achieve. Like so many aspects of today's world, the MLBPA and MLB often seem to oppose each other because they can, not because they should.

Well the players should have some say, they are the ones being hit afterall

[LVTwinsfan]

18 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

If we're going to be pedantic about it, I'm fine with any of the change options, I merely prefer two of them over the third. So I'm technically in the majority now (the no change option just went under 50%).

*pushes glasses up nose*

It’s kind of a flawed poll anyway. You still have almost 50% of Twins fans, just a few days after Buxton gets put on the IL after being hit by a pitch, saying no change. (hands you a lens wipe)

[Dodecahedron]

5 hours ago, LVTwinsfan said:

MLB seems to come down harder on pitchers, who have not proven themselves as being the only cheaters in the game. How long did they allow steroids before they overreacted and now the banned substances list is a ridiculously hypocritical reaction to a problem they allowed for years. And what about the Astros? Their response to that situation was weak. P

Selig was terrible as commissioner.  Manfred isn't awesome, but there have been more changes year-to-year with Manfred than there ever was with Selig.  I disagree with many of Manfred's changes, heck almost all of them, but he is at least trying.

To me, Selig is all about steroids, unbalanced scheduling, lost seasons from strikes, revenue and attendance drops, moving teams between leagues, etc.  He was what the owners wanted in a commissioner at the time -- a guy who did nothing and who turned a blind eye.  Manfred is almost the polar opposite and I'm surprised the owners are following along.

[LVTwinsfan]

30 minutes ago, Dodecahedron said:

Selig was terrible as commissioner.  Manfred isn't awesome, but there have been more changes year-to-year with Manfred than there ever was with Selig.  I disagree with many of Manfred's changes, heck almost all of them, but he is at least trying.

To me, Selig is all about steroids, unbalanced scheduling, lost seasons from strikes, revenue and attendance drops, moving teams between leagues, etc.  He was what the owners wanted in a commissioner at the time -- a guy who did nothing and who turned a blind eye.  Manfred is almost the polar opposite and I'm surprised the owners are following along.

If you want to address pitchers cheating that’s fine. But to hassle pitchers throughout the game is not the way to do it. And to allow opposing managers to ask umpires to make even more checks shouldn’t even be allowed. Personally I think they should band together and strike over this. This ridiculous spectacle is not good for the game and not what fans come to see. If  Manfred can’t see that then he should just resign. Figure out a plan in the off season and implement it but this is the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen. If this is Manfred trying, I would rather he do nothing. There’s going to be plenty of pushback and ejections over this and it’s going to get worse, not better. Pitchers should not cheat, neither should the Astros but what did they do to the players, absolutely nothing. This is all just wrong on so many levels. How many pitchers are going to drop their pants on the mound before they realize they made a mistake here.

 

[Dodecahedron]

19 minutes ago, LVTwinsfan said:

If you want to address pitchers cheating that’s fine. But to hassle pitchers throughout the game is not the way to do it. And to allow opposing managers to ask umpires to make even more checks shouldn’t even be allowed. Personally I think they should band together and strike over this. This ridiculous spectacle is not good for the game and not what fans come to see. If  Manfred can’t see that then he should just resign. Figure out a plan in the off season and implement it but this is the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen. If this is Manfred trying, I would rather he do nothing. There’s going to be plenty of pushback and ejections over this and it’s going to get worse, not better. Pitchers should not cheat, neither should the Astros but what did they do to the players, absolutely nothing. This is all just wrong on so many levels. How many pitchers are going to drop their pants on the mound before they realize they made a mistake here.

 

Manfred can't see a lot of things.  On this issue, baseball decided on a zero tolerance policy for foreign substances and the league is sticking to that*.  Part of this is theater for the sake of PR, which means doing multiple checks with the fans watching.

Baseball's rules are clear, so any "pushback" won't go very far.  One could argue, and probably should argue, that the problem isn't that umpires are checking now, but that they neglected to check for a very long time.  Moral things have a way of catching up to ya, and when they do, it can feel like the pendulum swung too far.

*Oof.

[LVTwinsfan]

11 minutes ago, Dodecahedron said:

Manfred can't see a lot of things.  On this issue, baseball decided on a zero tolerance policy for foreign substances and the league is sticking to that*.  Part of this is theater for the sake of PR, which means doing multiple checks with the fans watching.

Baseball's rules are clear, so any "pushback" won't go very far.  One could argue, and probably should argue, that the problem isn't that umpires are checking now, but that they neglected to check for a very long time.  Moral things have a way of catching up to ya, and when they do, it can feel like the pendulum swung too far.

*Oof.

I don’t need a lesson on morality, but maybe those that think they are taking the moral high ground do. This is a joke

[TheLeviathan]

15 hours ago, LVTwinsfan said:

If you want to address pitchers cheating that’s fine. But to hassle pitchers throughout the game is not the way to do it. And to allow opposing managers to ask umpires to make even more checks shouldn’t even be allowed. Personally I think they should band together and strike over this. This ridiculous spectacle is not good for the game and not what fans come to see. If  Manfred can’t see that then he should just resign. Figure out a plan in the off season and implement it but this is the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen. If this is Manfred trying, I would rather he do nothing. There’s going to be plenty of pushback and ejections over this and it’s going to get worse, not better. Pitchers should not cheat, neither should the Astros but what did they do to the players, absolutely nothing. This is all just wrong on so many levels. How many pitchers are going to drop their pants on the mound before they realize they made a mistake here.

 

If pitchers don't want to be hassled they should have been complying with the rules for the last few years.  Instead they brazenly spit all over them and now find it appropriate to whine that the league is enforcing fair play.

I don't get the manager challenges, just check every half inning when nothing is going on anyway.  No one is harmed by that unless they're cheating. 

What's not good for the game is consistently turning a blind eye to blatant cheating...  Especially when that cheating is having a demonstrably negative effect on the game between the lines.

[LVTwinsfan]

1 minute ago, TheLeviathan said:

If pitchers don't want to be hassled they should have been complying with the rules for the last few years.  Instead they brazenly spit all over them and now find it appropriate to whine that the league is enforcing fair play.

What's not good for the game is consistently turning a blind eye to blatant cheating because someone might get butt-hurt about it.  Especially when that cheating is having a demonstrably negative effect on the game between the lines.

Not all pitchers are cheating. I’m not defending those that do. If a store has a shoplifting problem they cannot search all their customers upon leaving the store to correct it. They have to work harder than that. Baseball has been lazy about this forever and they are being lazy now. Guilty until proven innocent is wrong in any situation.