Article: Cabrera vs. Trout: The MVP Debate for the Ages

[Thrylos]

Unless the Angels and the Tigers make the postseason, neither should be the MVP. MVP is about value to the team (i.e. helped the team go some place; unlike Cy Young, which is a best pitcher award.) Because the Angels and the Tiggers would have missed the post-season with them or without them. So, it might be between Cano and Beltre, depending on who makes the post-season.

 

That's my take. Maybe baseball needs a best player award like the Cy Young (Call it the Babe Ruth or the Barry Bonds Award ) and then we can have that discussion...

[biggentleben]

6 of 10 of the last Triple Crown winners DID NOT win the MVP

 

In the last 30 years, there have been 13 10.0 WAR+ players (Trout will be the 14th), only 5 won the MVP

[Mike Sixel]

Why is RBI part of the "triple crown", but not runs scored or stolen bases? This is a center fielder that might be the best defensive player in baseball, and is surely the best base runner. All I am saying is that three statistics do not show the full story. I find it highly ironic that the triple crown is a stat, made up of three other stats, and people that mock stats ate using it to "prove"something as inarguable.

 

Because the offensive triple crown is all done with the bat. It is the things that the Batter can directly control.

 

????

 

RBI is largely dependent on the number of baserunners on when you come up to bat. Heck, you get an RBI for hitting a routine fly to the OF if there is a fast guy on 3rd. Want evidence of that, check out Delmon Young's stats that "good" year he had here....it was about the fact that Mauer and others were on base when he came up to bat.

[jm3319]

[quote

Because the offensive triple crown is all done with the bat. It is the things that the Batter can directly control.

 

 

The person ahead of me beat me to it, but please explain how the batter can control how many people are on base for him. In theory, a leadoff guy could hit like 50 triples in a season, a bunch of doubles and 30 homers, and have very low RBI to show for it.

 

RBI is just not a good reflection of a hitter. the real triple crown should be batting average (a measure of how well the batter can hit the dang ball, but I'm open to arguments against average)/ OBP/ SLG

 

avg/OBP/SLG...you win these 3 with a good number of "traditional stats" like homers mixed in and you deserve to win.

 

My vote goes to Trout. He does more for his team than Cabrera. You can win games with the bat, but you can also win them with the glove and legs, too.

[beckmt]

I believe Cabrera deserves the reward. He has performed all year and the Tigers are better for it. Whether he wins the Triple Crown or not, he has had a remarkable season. Trout has been very good and if he performs at this level, he will win in the future.

[PseudoSABR]

I think the argument that Cabrera winning the Triple Crown appeals to the BBWA more than Mike Trout's incredulous rookie season grasps at ghosts. Mike Trout's rookie season has all the mythos that baseball writers crave (somewhere Rick Rielly is suddenly interested in baseball). Mike Trout is Mikey Mantle and Willie Mays. The guy has the incredible ease of Mantle and the absurd athleticism of Mays, and he's playing at their prime in his rookie year. Trout's highlight-worthy hops, the Halos' hole when they call him up, his humble personality--only add to his statline. As much as writers like old-stand-bys like RBIs, writers like to dream, and they can dream on Trout until someone slaps them in the face.

 

There's as much old-school and mystic in Trout as there is Cabrera's potential triple crown. We don't need sabermetrics to tell us that; we have our ****ing eyes.

[SweetOne69]

While it is true that the batter has no control over who or how many runners are on base when he comes up to bat, he does have direct control over driving the runners in when he does come up to bat. FYI, Cabrera only has 6 SF this year, so 127 of his RBIs were the result of a hit.

 

For Runs Scored you are relying on someone else to assist you in scoring unless you hit a HR (or steal home).

[SweetOne69]

One thing that I think is going against Trout is that his offense has really tailed off that last month. He was hitting .345 on August 23rd. His BA has dropped 20pts over the last 28 games. Whereas Cabrera is improving as the season goes on.

[Brock Beauchamp]

While it is true that the batter has no control over who or how many runners are on base when he comes up to bat, he does have direct control over driving the runners in when he does come up to bat. FYI, Cabrera only has 6 SF this year, so 127 of his RBIs were the result of a hit.

 

For Runs Scored you are relying on someone else to assist you in scoring unless you hit a HR (or steal home).

 

Not that it really matters but there are other ways to drive in a run other than getting a hit, such as taking a walk with the bases loaded or hitting into a fielder's choice.

[Curt]

It is a close call either way and both have had amazing seasons. The next week may still make a difference. Trout is a Phenom, to use a bit of Stengelese, and Cabrera is a monster. There is no MVP stat and there isn't really any particular criteria. Just 28 guys all using their own biases to identify and evaluate candidates. Some voters are surely dolts and some may be geniuses. Best player? How do you evaluate that? Most valuable? Can we even define it? If I were voting today it would be Cabrera. But I acknowledge I'm probably closer to dolt than genius. I've also been brainwashed from an early age to look at BA, HR and RBI. No amount of re-programming can reverse that totally.

[JB_Iowa]

Will someone who knows how to look this up more quickly than I do please post how many hitters have led their league in Batting Average & Home Runs in the same season since 1967?

 

To me the RBIs tend to go along with the other two stats -- and depend a lot on the quality of teammates but I just wondered if there are hitters in the last 45 years who missed the Triple Crown just because of RBIs?

[Willihammer]

Will someone who knows how to look this up more quickly than I do please post how many hitters have led their league in Batting Average & Home Runs in the same season since 1967?

 

zero

[ashbury]

WAR, What is it good for?

 

Absolutely nothing. Say it again, y'all.

[biggentleben]

WAR, What is it good for?

 

Absolutely nothing. Say it again, y'all.

 

Thorough, well thought, deeply intriguing, and underlined argument. Nice work.

[JB_Iowa]

Will someone who knows how to look this up more quickly than I do please post how many hitters have led their league in Batting Average & Home Runs in the same season since 1967?

 

zero

 

Thanks. I know it's not definitive -- and not the only reason for thinking Miggy should be the MVP -- but it does look like that combination of high average and HR's has become somewhat magical.

[ashbury]

I find being an obnoxious jackass to be much preferable over an objective "nerd."

 

You've convinced me.

 

POTD nominee

 

I was going to post something similar then remembered the part about being banninated for slamming others on this board. Otherwise I would have won your coveted award.

[ashbury]

WAR, What is it good for?

 

Absolutely nothing. Say it again, y'all.

 

Thorough, well thought, deeply intriguing, and underlined argument. Nice work.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=Absolutely+nothing.+Say+it+again%2C+y%27all.

 

In case that was needed.

[biggentleben]

WAR, What is it good for?

 

Absolutely nothing. Say it again, y'all.

 

Thorough, well thought, deeply intriguing, and underlined argument. Nice work.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=Absolutely+nothing.+Say+it+again%2C+y%27all.

 

In case that was needed.

 

Oh, I knew the reference quite well.

[biggentleben]

Will someone who knows how to look this up more quickly than I do please post how many hitters have led their league in Batting Average & Home Runs in the same season since 1967?

 

zero

 

Thanks. I know it's not definitive -- and not the only reason for thinking Miggy should be the MVP -- but it does look like that combination of high average and HR's has become somewhat magical.

 

Not exactly. In the last 20 years, 27 times a player has led his league in either BA or HR and finished in the top 10 of the other stat:

 

Matt Kemp 2011 - 3rd BA, 1st HR

Miguel Cabrera 2011 - 1st BA, 10th HR

Josh Hamilton 2010 - 1st BA, 5th HR

Carlos Gonzalez 2010 - 1st BA, 4th HR

Albert Pujols 2010 - 6th BA, 1st HR

Albert Pujols 2009 - 3rd BA, 1st HR

Magglio Ordonez 2007 - 1st BA, 7th HR

Matt Holliday 2007 - 1st BA, 4th HR

Ryan Howard 2006 - 9th BA, 1st HR

Alex Rodriguez 2005 - 2nd BA, 1st HR

Derrek Lee 2005 - 1st BA, 2nd HR

Barry Bonds 2004 - 1st BA, 2nd HR

Adrian Beltre 2004 - 4th BA, 1st HR

Albert Pujols 2003 - 1st BA, 4th HR

Barry Bonds 2002 - 1st BA, 4th HR

Manny Ramirez 2002 - 1st BA, 9th HR

Barry Bonds 2001 - 7th BA, 1st HR

Alex Rodriguez 2001 - 7th BA, 1st HR

Larry Walker 2001 - 1st BA, 9th HR

Larry Walker 1999 - 1st BA, 10th HR

Larry Walker 1997 - 2nd BA, 1st HR

Frank Thomas 1997 - 1st BA, 7th HR

Dante Bichette 1995 - 3rd BA, 1st HR

Albert Belle 1995 - 8th BA, 1st HR

Ken Griffey, Jr. 1994 - 9th BA, 1st HR

Barry Bonds 1993 - 4th BA, 1st HR

Gary Sheffield 1992 - 1st Ba, 3rd HR