Go get Verlander

[howieramone2]

 

I think Chief's point is that every year, we read that the Twins don't have enough assets to trade, but just wait until next year! Then we read that the costs for those players was just too high (either in assets or money or both), but wait until next year! Same with payroll flexibility, we need to keep it to sign players, but then when they don't sign players it is because they need money to sign players next year.....

 

So, is there ever actually a year?

 

Indeed, I think this is the third year in a row I've asked this question now....

The Twins have all kinds of assets in the farm system at this very moment. No need to ask the question again.

[old nurse]

 

I'm talking about what people post, which is literally the same reason the Twins just can't get better, other than "draft better", "develop better", nothing in what people here are posting is changing, even with the new FO. 

 

So far, though, the new FO passed on fixing the SP at either the deadline or the off season.

One off season, one mid season to make trades. Instant gratification or bust

[Mike Sixel]

 

The Twins have all kinds of assets in the farm system at this very moment. No need to ask the question again.

 

that's not what people are literally saying just a page or two up in this thread....

[howieramone2]

 

that's not what people are literally saying just a page or two up in this thread....

Why would I care what other people say? You asked, I answered. No need to ask the same question next year. In fact I would have given the same answer last off season. I have approximately 25 members on my ignore list. You'd be surprised how much better information I receive, since I don't see half the posts.

[old nurse]

 

that's not what people are literally saying just a page or two up in this thread....

The draft class of 2017 was not eligible to be traded. They have had a half season in. Many of the better assets are in the low minors. Mid season trades generally involve AA players, not the lower minors  Romero was likely their only pitcher of the high upside in anyone's book as Gonsalves doesn't have enough ticks on his fastball to be considered front of rotation. Pitching for pitching is the general flavor of trades.  Power starters tend to also be preferred. That is what makes Kaprellian attractive over what the Twins could offer, statistics and injuries aside. The power starters in the Twins system seem to be all relievers. They aimed high and missed.

[drjim]

 

You don't think they had enough prospects to get Gray or Quintana? when will they? We are in year 4 or 5 of the rebuild.....Houston did, in the same amount of time. Same with the Cubs.

 

I think Houston and Chicago did a better job on the rebuild than the Twins. That is why Terry Ryan was fired.

 

I don't think they had enough for Quintana, I think they could have squeezed out Gray if they really emptied the system. Do you dispute this? Is this a controversial take?

 

I hope the new front office does a better job of talent acquisition, that is one of the reasons they were hired. I can't tell you exactly when the next date will occur that they will have a really good prospect now that Sano and Buxton aren't going to be traded, hopefully next summer with Royce Lewis.

[drjim]

 

I missed the middle of this argument.  No the Twins probably can't go out and get the top 3 FA's.  But they do have the means to get one.  Will it reduce their profit based on last year's revenue?  Yes, but there is a give and take. If the Twins got Verlander for 3/$75M.  He would make the rotation better and help the Twins win more games.  More wins and better players mean more fans and more fans mean more money.  

 

I don't get the argument against getting a top of the line starting pitcher.  

 

No one is *against* getting a top of the line pitcher.

[old nurse]

The questions for the off season should be these two when it comes to trades. One is which teams are going to go into full rebuild mode and what can they sell.  Two, which traditional sellers, like Oakland and Miami, have something to sell. 

[drjim]

 

I think Chief's point is that every year, we read that the Twins don't have enough assets to trade, but just wait until next year! Then we read that the costs for those players was just too high (either in assets or money or both), but wait until next year! Same with payroll flexibility, we need to keep it to sign players, but then when they don't sign players it is because they need money to sign players next year.....

 

So, is there ever actually a year?

 

Indeed, I think this is the third year in a row I've asked this question now....

 

But they also haven't been in the position they are right now since 2010. That should probably enter the equation.

 

Why in the world would they trade prospects for established major leaguers when they are mired in 90ish loss seasons, that would be terrible asset management. Their problem was they weren't aggressive enough in acquiring young assets, not too hesitant to trade them away.

 

It sucks they fell, but the Twins right now are the equivalent of where the Astros were in 2015 and Cubs in 2014. Neither were especially aggressive in trading their young assets until the next season. Twins should follow that model.

[drjim]

 

I'm talking about what people post, which is literally the same reason the Twins just can't get better, other than "draft better", "develop better", nothing in what people here are posting is changing, even with the new FO. 

 

So far, though, the new FO passed on fixing the SP at either the deadline or the off season.

 

The front office can't trade for other SPs if they don't have good enough prospects. That would seem pretty obvious, right?

[Mike Sixel]

 

But they also haven't been in the position they are right now since 2010. That should probably enter the equation.

 

Why in the world would they trade prospects for established major leaguers when they are mired in 90ish loss seasons, that would be terrible asset management. Their problem was they weren't aggressive enough in acquiring young assets, not too hesitant to trade them away.

 

It sucks they fell, but the Twins right now are the equivalent of where the Astros were in 2015 and Cubs in 2014. Neither were especially aggressive in trading their young assets until the next season. Twins should follow that model.

 

that's fair, and we agree on the overall talent acquisition issues. The difference is that the Cubs and Astros wasted less years of their young players, as they all hit at the same time somehow (luck was part of it). Imagine if the Astros had taken Bryant and not Appel.....

 

[drjim]

 

The Twins have all kinds of assets in the farm system at this very moment. No need to ask the question again.

 

They don't have enough to acquire the types of good, controllable pitchers that are being suggested in this thread. To keep saying otherwise doesn't make it true.

[Mike Sixel]

 

The front office can't trade for other SPs if they don't have good enough prospects. That would seem pretty obvious, right?

 

We don't agree they don't have enough assets. That's clear.

[howieramone2]

For those keeping score at home, TR drafted starting pitching in 2013, at 1,2,4, and 5. The 2013 draft is maturing well and has a chance to be as strong as our 2012 draft. The new regime in 2017, took starting pitching at 3,4, and 5, and then followed that up by picking up 4 arms at the trade deadline. I certainly agree we need to make a mega-trade this off season for a 2/3 starting pitcher, but let's not pretend they haven't been moving in the right direction for quite some time.

[drjim]

 

that's fair, and we agree on the overall talent acquisition issues. The difference is that the Cubs and Astros wasted less years of their young players, as they all hit at the same time somehow (luck was part of it). Imagine if the Astros had taken Bryant and not Appel.....

 

The Twins haven't wasted their young players at all, they all basically emerged this year and now they have a very solid 4 year window before they hit the free agency window.

 

It is actually a somewhat similar cycle, just took a little longer for the Twins, and they don't quite have the same prospect inventory to back it up, but I think that shifts a little this year.

[howieramone2]

 

They don't have enough to acquire the types of good, controllable pitchers that are being suggested in this thread. To keep saying otherwise doesn't make it true.

Yes they do and they did last off season also. They could easily package Gonsalves, Stewart, Gordon, Romero, etc.

[Mike Sixel]

 

The Twins haven't wasted their young players at all, they all basically emerged this year and now they have a very solid 4 year window before they hit the free agency window.

 

It is actually a somewhat similar cycle, just took a little longer for the Twins, and they don't quite have the same prospect inventory to back it up, but I think that shifts a little this year.

 

Rosario and Sano have more MLB years under their belts than the Astros players did before the Astros were good, IIRC, but I could be wrong on that. Also, the Twins old players are FA soon, whereas the Astros old players (that are good) were more recently acquired. 

 

I just hope we don't see a stop back next year....

[drjim]

 

We don't agree they don't have enough assets. That's clear.

 

They would if they trade someone on the major league roster, but their minor league system does lack the high end guys.

 

Sickels came out yesterday with his early grades, they got no A-/A guys (except maybe Lewis who is not going anywhere), that is who is landing controllable starting pitching.

[drjim]

 

Yes they do and they did last off season also. They could easily package Gonsalves, Stewart, Gordon, Romero, etc.

 

That is not beating the packages that landed the guys being discussed here.

[drjim]

 

Rosario and Sano have more MLB years under their belts than the Astros players did before the Astros were good, IIRC, but I could be wrong on that. Also, the Twins old players are FA soon, whereas the Astros old players (that are good) were more recently acquired. 

 

I just hope we don't see a stop back next year....

 

Less years than Altuve for sure, similar to Springer, Correa and Bergman emerged a little quicker, McCullers is similar to Berrios. And much more of the roster is more veteran guys. What is actually interesting about the Astros is much more of their roster is from free agent signings, or trades for veterans on short deals. Their young core is no bigger, and ultimately might not even end up better, than what the Twins are emerging with right now.

 

Sano/Rosario/Buxton are all now 2+, Kepler/Polanco/Berrios all 1+.

[Mike Sixel]

 

They would if they trade someone on the major league roster, but their minor league system does lack the high end guys.

 

Sickels came out yesterday with his early grades, they got no A-/A guys (except maybe Lewis who is not going anywhere), that is who is landing controllable starting pitching.

 

that's not good, given their draft position lately....and the money they've spend on IFA, since they had more to spend than most other teams.

[howieramone2]

 

That is not beating the packages that landed the guys being discussed here.

That package will get us a youngish 2/3 starting pitcher, and there are any number that will be acceptable to me. I don't need the most expensive thing on the menu.

[drjim]

 

that's not good, given their draft position lately....and the money they've spend on IFA, since they had more to spend than most other teams.

 

I suppose there is a place to continually lament the failures of the previous front office over and over again. But there is also a place to move on.

[Loosey]

 

No one is *against* getting a top of the line pitcher.

You are right, but there are plenty making excuses for not getting one.

[howieramone2]

Our draft position due to poor results has yielded us Buxton, Stewart, Gordon, Jay, and Lewis. The last 4 still have bright futures. How do you figure they had more to spend on IFA than most teams? This is the first year of the hard cap, and it's not even close to being over. Few teams have had as good of results as we've had in IFA.

 

 

[drjim]

 

You are right, but there are plenty making excuses for not getting one.

 

And there is also a lot of suspension of reality in the discussion of how the Twins could go about getting one.

[prouster]

It seems to me that there's a lot of straw-manning going on. I think the general argument against a Verlander-type trade is that the prospect cost outweighs the benefit, and that such a move, while it might have some immediate impact, would actually hurt long term sustainability. No one is arguing that the Twins shouldn't make moves, just that they need to make the right moves, which aren't always the splashy ones.

 

As far as Verlander is specifically concerned, I think there are plenty of reasons why he was never a viable option. Listing those reasons would be redundant.

[Mike Sixel]

 

It seems to me that there's a lot of straw-manning going on. I think the general argument against a Verlander-type trade is that the prospect cost outweighs the benefit, and that such a move, while it might have some immediate impact, would actually hurt long term sustainability. No one is arguing that the Twins shouldn't make moves, just that they need to make the right moves, which aren't always the splashy ones.

As far as Verlander is specifically concerned, I think there are plenty of reasons why he was never a viable option. Listing those reasons would be redundant.

 

What are the right moves? 

 

Quintana and Gray, for example, had multiple cheap years left?

 

And, what is it about Verlander that is wrong, other than maybe timing by a year if you don't think the Twins were all that good last year?

[Squirrel]

Of course not. But you can't make a trade if you don't have as good of prospects.

Well, I don’t agree that the Twins didn’t have the prospects to acquire pitching help. While this is a topic on Verlander, I’ll say I don’t think Verlander was a possibility because of Verlander, not because we didn’t have enough to get him. And perhaps a little bit of Detroit not really wanting to trade within division, but that’s a whole lot less likely than Verlander not wanting to come here, IMO. But I think we had the prospects for it, but who knows, maybe they would have held out for someone we didn’t want to let go of. That said, I think we had the prospects to add RP help like the Yankees did. That would have made a huge difference. I’m more disappointed in that than all this Verlander stuff. And I would have liked Quintana on our team. Verlander just wasn’t going to be a doable deal in my opinion, but another piece or two? I’d like to know what was going on with the FO discussions there as I think we had enough pieces there without depleting our resources. And maybe we still wouldn’t have won it all, but maybe it would have gotten us a bit further. But now we’ll never know and it’s onto next year. I’ll be looking for something this off season ...

[drjim]

 

Well, I don’t agree that the Twins didn’t have the prospects to acquire pitching help. While this is a topic on Verlander, I’ll say I don’t think Verlander was a possibility because of Verlander, not because we didn’t have enough to get him. And perhaps a little bit of Detroit not really wanting to trade within division, but that’s a whole lot less likely than Verlander not wanting to come here, IMO. But I think we had the prospects for it, but who knows, maybe they would have held out for someone we didn’t want to let go of. That said, I think we had the prospects to add RP help like the Yankees did. That would have made a huge difference. I’m more disappointed in that than all this Verlander stuff. And I would have liked Quintana on our team. Verlander just wasn’t going to be a doable deal in my opinion, but another piece or two? I’d like to know what was going on with the FO discussions there as I think we had enough pieces there without depleting our resources. And maybe we still wouldn’t have won it all, but maybe it would have gotten us a bit further. But now we’ll never know and it’s onto next year. I’ll be looking for something this off season ...

 

For me, I was focusing on Verlander, Quintana and Gray when talking about a lack of prospects. Verlander didn't want to come here, they didn't have the prospect inventory to get Quintana, and Gray was gettable, but that really would have cleaned out the system. I don't think that type of all in move at that point for a player of Gray's ability/risk going forward would have been a wise move - but it was doable.

 

They'll have another shot at a similar type pitcher over the next couple of seasons, or they can perhaps get one this offseason by dangling Rosario/Kepler/Polanco.