Luke Cage (no spoilers!)

[TheLeviathan]

Yup, Nick is right on. I think it was around episode 8 that I noticed the dip.

[nicksaviking]

At least Rosario Dawson had a bigger role. Thumbs up there.

[snepp]

It was a bit up and down, but when I finished the last episode tonight I wanted more.

[jimmer]

 

It was a bit up and down, but when I finished the last episode tonight I wanted more.

I had today off and was home alone.  I should have finished it.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Ten episodes in and I see what you all mean about the second half of the series.

 

Cottonmouth >>>>>>>>>>>> Diamondback

 

Meh on Diamondback. He's completely flat.

 

Cottonmouth is great. Love the character.

[TheLeviathan]

 

It was a bit up and down, but when I finished the last episode tonight I wanted more.

 

I think Luke will be a far more enjoyable character as part of the larger ensemble.  His personality will be a nice contrast with Jessica Jones and Daredevil.  Had they found a way to keep Cottonmouth the antagonist the entire series this may have turned out better overall IMO.

 

But I'm looking forward to seeing who he might bump into back at Sea Gate, lots of possibilities there.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I think Luke will be a far more enjoyable character as part of the larger ensemble.  His personality will be a nice contrast with Jessica Jones and Daredevil.  Had they found a way to keep Cottonmouth the antagonist the entire series this may have turned out better overall IMO.

 

But I'm looking forward to seeing who he might bump into back at Sea Gate, lots of possibilities there.

Yeah, Cottonmouth was a great foil to Luke. I don't understand why they felt the need to move on from that kind of street-level conflict, which put Harlem at the front and center of the series.

 

I also agree that Seagate has some pretty cool potential in the future. I like almost all of the decisions made by the showrunners except for Diamondback. My indifference toward him is half character, half actor. He's crazy in a pretty mundane and illogical way, which isn't helped by the actor's portrayal, which is too heavy on schlocky intensity. Everything seems off and a bit forced with his story.

 

On the other hand, Cottonmouth had a complex and believable backstory and the actor absolutely nailed the character with little touches such as random, uncontrolled bursts of laughter. The audience wanted to like Cottonmouth and that feeling was reinforced with his sympathetic backstory of manipulation. On the other hand, Diamondback is completely unrelatable. I don't feel any connection with the character, all I find myself thinking is how much I'd rather see Cottonmouth whenever Diamondback is on-screen.

 

It sucks to see a show launch with such a solid concept and then drop it just as the story and characters feel like they're really getting rolling, doubly so if the replacement is meh.

 

Oh, and I think Shades deserves a shout-out for developing into a compelling character, even if he's only there to spur other characters into action. He's the anti-Diamondback; a templated character that is propped up by the actor's consistent performance and general likability.

[Brock Beauchamp]

While typing that, I kinda put my finger on what I dislike about Diamondback.

 

He feels like a badly templated character from a 90s Image comic or the Dolph Lundgren Punisher movie. He's a guy we've seen before without a significant twist to make him interesting, portrayed by an actor who isn't doing that template any favors.

 

It's simplistic, boring, and something we've seen 100 times in the past without any differentiating features to set him apart from the pack.

[TheLeviathan]

What made Fisk a great antagonist was that he wanted the same thing as Daredevil, they were two sides of the same coin.  He was also well acted, intense, and believable.

 

Killgrave had all of the same things.  No matter how vile those two guys were, they never strayed from being relatable and engaging.

 

Diamondback was like a Sci-Fi movie villain.  Or that's what he felt like.  Trying to generate emotional buy in by being over the top and ridiculous.  The second Cottonmouth died, the potential for the series to be great died with him.

[Craig Arko]

I wasn't too keen on Diamondback either, although the character is being set up for a powered return.

 

I thought the actual villain in the end was Black Mariah; she's so subtlety played by Alfre Woodard she almost disappears into the setting.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I thought the actual villain in the end was Black Mariah; she's so subtlety played by Alfre Woodard she almost disappears into the setting.

She's good on her own but was great alongside Cottonmouth. I do not understand why that dynamic was broken halfway through the season.

 

Even if she ended the season on top with Cottonmouth out of the picture, how they got there would have been engrossing storytelling. I mean, the way they dropped the molestation bombshell on us was fantastic, unfortunately they ended that story approximately eight seconds later.

 

Baffling. The most intense part of the story happened in literally 20 seconds and then was over.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Diamondback was like a Sci-Fi movie villain.  Or that's what he felt like.  Trying to generate emotional buy in by being over the top and ridiculous.  The second Cottonmouth died, the potential for the series to be great died with him.

Yeah, exactly. He's Ledger's Joker - a completely unbelievable character when you get right down to it - without the surprise, acting, lunacy, and dialogue to pull off that trick. The Joker introduced himself with the pencil trick and the audience was all on board after that point. The character didn't even have to be great, it just had to not screw it up after that scene. And the filmmakers ran with it.

 

And without all that stuff, that character becomes run-of-the-mill entertainment fodder. It's the same problem suffered by Apocalypse in the latest X-Men movie. Bad guy is angry, bad guy does bad stuff, decides the world must end because reasons, more things happen, no one cares.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Yeah, exactly. He's Ledger's Joker - a completely unbelievable character when you get right down to it - without the surprise, acting, lunacy, and dialogue to pull off that trick. The Joker introduced himself with the pencil trick and the audience was all on board after that point. The character didn't even have to be great, it just had to not screw it up after that scene. And the filmmakers ran with it.

 

And without all that stuff, that character becomes run-of-the-mill entertainment fodder. It's the same problem suffered by Apocalypse in the latest X-Men movie. Bad guy is angry, bad guy does bad stuff, decides the world must end because reasons, more things happen, no one cares.

 

Plus, Joker worked because he wasn't trying to be anything other than a lunatic with no cares given for who he pissed off. 

 

We were supposed to believe Diamondback was some kind of revered, established mobster who ran a syndicate of organized crime.  

 

That whack job?  No way.  And as much as I liked Shades as a character, every time I saw him interact with Diamondback made much of his earlier dialogue and behavior seem totally inexplicable.

 

Black Mariah was great, but she wasn't the centerpiece of the final arc.  The crazy guy from last Saturday's Sci-fi movie was that guy.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

And as much as I liked Shades as a character, every time I saw him interact with Diamondback made much of his earlier dialogue and behavior seem totally inexplicable.

Yeah, Shades' early statements about Diamondback make very little sense after the character is introduced. You're expecting some nefarious, powerful, intelligent multi-national mob boss and instead you get the crazy guy with no pants who's screaming at the mailbox outside your apartment.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Yeah, Shades' early statements about Diamondback make very little sense after the character is introduced. You're expecting some nefarious, powerful, intelligent multi-national mob boss and instead you get the crazy guy with no pants who's screaming at the mailbox outside your apartment.

 

Who Shades goes from being a clearly loyal right hand man when not in his presence, to constantly questioning him in his presence.  Makes no...damn...sense.

[Mike Sixel]

I admit I am losing interest in comic book series, as it becomes clear there really is no chance they are really ever hurt......(which, admittedly, outside of a few shows, no protagonists ever get really hurt).....but most protagonists aren't put in danger every minute, and aren't about fighting all the time....

 

I can handle that in a movie, especially if the heroes face some emotional issues or something....like parts of civil war, but I don't think I can do it in a series. Heck, at least the Dr dies sometimes before coming back.

[jimmer]

 

I admit I am losing interest in comic book series, as it becomes clear there really is no chance they are really ever hurt......(which, admittedly, outside of a few shows, no protagonists ever get really hurt).....but most protagonists aren't put in danger every minute, and aren't about fighting all the time....

 

I can handle that in a movie, especially if the heroes face some emotional issues or something....like parts of civil war, but I don't think I can do it in a series. Heck, at least the Dr dies sometimes before coming back.

Daredevil got hurt a lot in his series...almost died a few times in season one.

[TheLeviathan]

And Jessica Jones was mentally ravaged.

 

Luke Cage and the Hulk have the same problem for me that Superman does.  At some point you stop being interesting because of the goofy lengths writers have to go to make the invulnerable become vulnerable.  

[nicksaviking]

 

I admit I am losing interest in comic book series, as it becomes clear there really is no chance they are really ever hurt......(which, admittedly, outside of a few shows, no protagonists ever get really hurt).....but most protagonists aren't put in danger every minute, and aren't about fighting all the time....

 

I can handle that in a movie, especially if the heroes face some emotional issues or something....like parts of civil war, but I don't think I can do it in a series. Heck, at least the Dr dies sometimes before coming back.

 

In the films, I'd guess they already have plans to start killing off an Avenger or two, likely those with the most prohibitive salaries. But I hear you. While the comic book shows are pretty modern in many ways, the main characters who you know will pull through are kind of a throw back to past shows, many of them poorly written.

 

Now if they had the guts to kill one of them off in The Defenders, my level of interest may go up again.

 

As for the fighting, while I'd be interested in a more introspective comic book show, I'd bet they'd lose a pretty large part of their audience. I'd guess having at minimum one action sequence a show is going to be standard going forward.

[Mike Sixel]

My point on the fighting was....if they can't get hurt in a fight, I'm losing interest. I mean, one of the things I liked about person of interest was....people die.

[TheLeviathan]

I think people look for their own thing in comic books and heroes.  Lots of people love Superman.  Tarantino even told us in Kill Bill why Superman is the best of them.

 

Personally, I like vulnerability in all respects.  The magic, alien laced bullets are a fine thing for a comic that has been running for 30 years to tell as a storyline.  For that to be 5 episodes in to a character's first season is troubling.  That's trying way too hard and way too fast to build a sense of real danger. 

 

IMO, it wasn't necessary and really hurt the plot.  

[ericchri]

 

I think people look for their own thing in comic books and heroes.  Lots of people love Superman.  Tarantino even told us in Kill Bill why Superman is the best of them.

 

Personally, I like vulnerability in all respects.  The magic, alien laced bullets are a fine thing for a comic that has been running for 30 years to tell as a storyline.  For that to be 5 episodes in to a character's first season is troubling.  That's trying way too hard and way too fast to build a sense of real danger. 

 

IMO, it wasn't necessary and really hurt the plot.  

 

At one point Mariah literally tossed out options like, "Does he breathe?  Drown him."  And Cottonmouth responds to that by basically going, "Nah, I've got it covered" cause he wants to spend a gajillion dollars on the super-bullet thing to take out Cage.  Worst moment in the show for me.  And then he doesn't even get the chance and Diamondback is the one using the bullets.

 

I liked the feel of the show, the actors were almost all really good (except as previously noted Diamondback), and it was still a relatively interesting story, but they just dropped the ball hard in working up a way to deal with the whole invulnerability thing.

[biggentleben]

 

In the films, I'd guess they already have plans to start killing off an Avenger or two, likely those with the most prohibitive salaries. But I hear you. While the comic book shows are pretty modern in many ways, the main characters who you know will pull through are kind of a throw back to past shows, many of them poorly written.

 

Now if they had the guts to kill one of them off in The Defenders, my level of interest may go up again.

 

As for the fighting, while I'd be interested in a more introspective comic book show, I'd bet they'd lose a pretty large part of their audience. I'd guess having at minimum one action sequence a show is going to be standard going forward.

 

One thing I will give shows like Flash and Arrow is that while they don't kill off the main guy (and obviously that wouldn't work so well), they do have the guts to kill off big time characters in the show.

[Brock Beauchamp]

One thing I will give shows like Flash and Arrow is that while they don't kill off the main guy (and obviously that wouldn't work so well), they do have the guts to kill off big time characters in the show.

But to be fair, the Arrowverse has close to ten seasons under its belt. The Netflix universe has four, three of them introductory seasons.

[biggentleben]

 

But to be fair, the Arrowverse has close to ten seasons under its belt. The Netflix universe has four, three of them introductory seasons.

 

Oh, absolutely. I'm not ripping on Netflix stuff as I see they're still in infancy and establishing those characters. Killing off a major character has nearly no impact in season one, but that same character surviving three or four seasons with the focus of the series and suddenly being lost is a significant thing for the audience to grasp and for the show to process. Heck, Arrow is referencing the loss of a major character in every episode so far this season.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Heck, Arrow is referencing the loss of a major character in every episode so far this season.

Is it? I may have to catch up, then. I drifted off in season three, picked up later again and made it to season four, then stopped again. The fact that everyone on the planet had been to that same island and everyone Ollie knows became a superhero was too much for me to bear after awhile.