Royals Yordano Ventura

[tobi0040]

If you're inclined to post "buy low, sell high," this is exactly the kind of buy low opportunity you are talking about.

Kind of surprising too.

 

More people seemed to be okay with us taking a flier on Aroldis Chapman, who fired a gun near his girlfriend to intimidate her. I file the offense of throwing at batters slightly less severe.

[Thrylos]

 

Although I doubt the Royals trade him and likely not to us.

 

No way.  Can you imagine how many Royals' hitters he would be throwing at if they trade him within the division?

 

If the Royals take Plouffe (they lost their third baseman) and one of Nolasco/Hughes/E Santana, I will be fine with it.

 

As far as being an "idiot", "headcase" etc. for throwing at opposing batters, I have 2 words to say:

Jack Morris.

 

Cannot criticize a pitcher for throwing at batters and like Jack Morris at the same time.  The Twins need a bit more of that, IMHO...

[Thrylos]

 

Kind of surprising too.

More people seemed to be okay with us taking a flier on Aroldis Chapman, who fired a gun near his girlfriend to intimidate her. I file the offense of throwing at batters slightly less severe.

 

Exactly.  Add to those people, the people who were crying rivers in defense of Neil Allen and his DUI

[bluechipper]

 

Kind of surprising too.

More people seemed to be okay with us taking a flier on Aroldis Chapman, who fired a gun near his girlfriend to intimidate her. I file the offense of throwing at batters slightly less severe.

I think the fact that Chapman has some of the best stuff of all time has something to do with it too, and he could be had for basically nothing in a trade.

 

By the way, I wasn't one that was really in favor of trying to get him.

[tobi0040]

I think the fact that Chapman has some of the best stuff of all time has something to do with it too, and he could be had for basically nothing in a trade.

 

By the way, I wasn't one that was really in favor of trying to get him.

Ventura as a closer likely has good stuff too. Not a lefty so a nod to Chapman.

 

But Ventura has a much more favorable contract and again, abusing women should be ridiculed a lot more than throwing at batters. If temper and immaturity are red flags to Ventura, they have to be at least equal red flags to Chapman.

[Hrbowski]

 

Ventura as a closer likely has good stuff too. Not a lefty so a nod to Chapman.

But Ventura has a much more favorable contract and again, abusing women should be ridiculed a lot more than throwing at batters. If temper and immaturity are red flags to Ventura, they have to be at least equal red flags to Chapman.

They are, and scouts have had concerns about Chapman's makeup before he ever signed with the Reds.

[gunnarthor]

I think there's a sizeable difference between an immature guy like Ventura and athletes who have done real harm to others.  I find Ventura to be somewhat fun to watch from 500 miles away.  He's exciting, got good stuff and is liable to start a baseball brawl.  That's entertaining.  

 

Now, compare that to people like Chapman or Adrian Peterson.  Those are the kind of guys I don't want on a team I'm rooting for.  

[ashbury]

Out Of The Park baseball game has an amusing feature that tries to assign personalities to the players. Their idea is to have clubhouse cancers, strong leaders, etc., which might affect your team's performance. The game for 2016 describes Ventura thus: "Doesn't really stand out; he's just one of the guys." Pretty middle of the road in all the dimensions they show. Hm.

 

By contrast, they are willing to call out Papelbon: "has a good work ethic, but he is often regarded as a selfish player, and has trouble keeping up" (referring to supposed low intelligence with that last part). LOL. Bryce Harper works hard as anyone but has a me-first attitude.

 

BTW they characterize Buxton as never showing a lack of effort but also having a me-first attitude, whereas Sano they list as "captain material, never afraid to take risks". Mauer they show as highly respected by his teammates. The only Twin I think they really zing is Mastroianni, "he often shows a lack of effort". I wonder where they get some of this stuff. LOL again.

 

Anyway it's all just for fun, I guess. A crazy little datapoint at best, as regards the real world, if somehow they have sources within the teams, which I doubt. But they've whiffed on Ventura.

[ashbury]

Who or what is Deebo?

I dunno. Who or what is Google?

[Pardon My Dinger]

 

I dunno. Who or what is Google?

Pffffft. Nobody googles anymore, old man. 

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

I think there's a sizeable difference between an immature guy like Ventura and athletes who have done real harm to others.  I find Ventura to be somewhat fun to watch from 500 miles away.  He's exciting, got good stuff and is liable to start a baseball brawl.  That's entertaining.  

 

Now, compare that to people like Chapman or Adrian Peterson.  Those are the kind of guys I don't want on a team I'm rooting for.  

 

While there is certainly a large difference (please note this before anyone responds) between Chapman,Peterson, and other clowns and these guys, let's not dismiss Ventura and Machado's behavior.  They too are trying to do real harm.

 

The only difference between what Ventura and Machado are doing and assault (Or some other arrestable offense) is that it happened in the middle of a baseball field and not a bar. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

If you're inclined to post "buy low, sell high," this is exactly the kind of buy low opportunity you are talking about.

 

Are all buy-lows created equally?  Personally, I prefer the "underachiever who was formally high regarded" over the "this guy is a freaking whack job/criminal".

[Guest]

It's easier and cheaper to hire a counselor to help someone mature than it is to increase fastball speed. The Royals have had success sprinkling pixie dust on veterans. If the Royals will take Nolasco and his contract, the Twins should do the deal in a heartbeat. Recognize that the Twins could lose this deal: Ricky has a 1.2 fWar this year, vs. a 0.1 fWar for Ventura. If Plouffe is thrown in, the Twins should get additional value in return, although you could make the argument that taking Ricky's contract is giving additional value.

[TheLeviathan]

If your idea of adding Ventura involves handing them Nolasco as part of the deal, you are playing a video game with the setting on "For Grandmas"

[gunnarthor]

 

While there is certainly a large difference (please note this before anyone responds) between Chapman,Peterson, and other clowns and these guys, let's not dismiss Ventura and Machado's behavior.  They too are trying to do real harm.

 

The only difference between what Ventura and Machado are doing and assault (Or some other arrestable offense) is that it happened in the middle of a baseball field and not a bar. 

We've had our differences on this and I continue to be baffled by you constantly comparing things on a baseball field to either normal work atmosphere or a normal social setting, like a bar.  It's so far off the mark that we just end up arguing the silliest things.  So, instead, I'll just post a few thoughts from others that I sort of agree with

 

From Jayson Stark: "Joe Maddon is a big fan of the game policing itself. So he had no problem with Manny Machado charging the mound on Yordano Ventura -- and said he'd have no issue if one of his players felt a need to do that. "I've always told my players, `You've got two options (after you get drilled): Go to first or go to the mound.'" And if it meant having one of his best players suspended? "It was absolutely warranted. So why would I not want him to do that? We were in a pretty good fight with Boston (with the 2008 Rays). We had guys suspended for a whole month. And we went to the World Series.""  So, either Maddon is a sensible dude or he has a lizard brain and enjoys watching criminal activities.

 

From Deadspin's Barry Petchsky (and I think his line of thinking is probably accurate for most of us:  "It’s been a good year for basebrawls, and I’m still wrestling with why I enjoy them so much at the same time I’d like to see staged fighting disappear from hockey. There are a few reasons, I think. Their rarity; the fact that they occur out of genuine anger as opposed to mere frustration, or an attempt to change a game’s momentum; what we know about the toll hockey already takes on its players’ health, something that seems to fall especially hard on enforcers. All I know is a good baseball fight is something special, and this was a good baseball fight."

[TheLeviathan]

 

We've had our differences on this and I continue to be baffled by you constantly comparing things on a baseball field to either normal work atmosphere or a normal social setting, like a bar.  It's so far off the mark that we just end up arguing the silliest things.  So, instead, I'll just post a few thoughts from others that I sort of agree with

 

If you pick up a whiskey bottle and hurl it at someone in the bar and they call the police - will you be arrested?  The answer is yes.  You said they weren't "trying to harm someone"  - which is patently false.  They were.  The only difference with their behavior is the locale in which it happened.  If this happened outside a bar the police would be called and people would be arrested for disorderly conduct.  

 

That's just a fact, sorry it doesn't jive with your desire to feel both morally justified while at the same time chanting "we want blood" from the stands. But you are, in fact, applauding violence and harm against other humans for your entertainment.  It'd be easier if you just accepted that rather than trying to hold some moral high ground that is of your own invention.

[Dman]

 

We've had our differences on this and I continue to be baffled by you constantly comparing things on a baseball field to either normal work atmosphere or a normal social setting, like a bar.  It's so far off the mark that we just end up arguing the silliest things.  So, instead, I'll just post a few thoughts from others that I sort of agree with

 

From Jayson Stark: "Joe Maddon is a big fan of the game policing itself. So he had no problem with Manny Machado charging the mound on Yordano Ventura -- and said he'd have no issue if one of his players felt a need to do that. "I've always told my players, `You've got two options (after you get drilled): Go to first or go to the mound.'" And if it meant having one of his best players suspended? "It was absolutely warranted. So why would I not want him to do that? We were in a pretty good fight with Boston (with the 2008 Rays). We had guys suspended for a whole month. And we went to the World Series.""  So, either Maddon is a sensible dude or he has a lizard brain and enjoys watching criminal activities.

 

From Deadspin's Barry Petchsky (and I think his line of thinking is probably accurate for most of us:  "It’s been a good year for basebrawls, and I’m still wrestling with why I enjoy them so much at the same time I’d like to see staged fighting disappear from hockey. There are a few reasons, I think. Their rarity; the fact that they occur out of genuine anger as opposed to mere frustration, or an attempt to change a game’s momentum; what we know about the toll hockey already takes on its players’ health, something that seems to fall especially hard on enforcers. All I know is a good baseball fight is something special, and this was a good baseball fight."

 

the game policing itself is a farce.  It is illogical. It why all games have to have rules.  Yes I am willing to call Joe Maddon an idiot if he really believes that.

[TheLeviathan]

 

the game policing itself is a farce.  It is illogical. It why all games have to have rules.  Yes I am willing to call Joe Maddon an idiot if he really believes that.

 

Even smart people can have some really dumb#*^ ideas sometimes.

[gunnarthor]

 

the game policing itself is a farce.  It is illogical. It why all games have to have rules.  Yes I am willing to call Joe Maddon an idiot if he really believes that.

All games police themselves.  This isn't just baseball.  Baseball just romanticizes it.  But every sport has rules for respecting your opponent and nearly every scuffle/fight/brawl in any of these sports is b/c someone disrespected someone else.  That's certainly not unique to baseball.  

[gunnarthor]

 

If you pick up a whiskey bottle and hurl it at someone in the bar and they call the police - will you be arrested?  

Again, these are just wildly silly comparisons.

 

If a snake had shoes, would he wear them?  I mean, it's nonsense.  

 

The better comparison is to compare actions that your workplace would find tolerable and compare that to other social settings that wouldn't.  That doesn't mean that one setting is right and the other isn't.  

[TheLeviathan]

 

That doesn't mean that one setting is right and the other isn't.  

 

I don't know of any setting in which violence and attempt to physically harm others is tolerated as part of the workplace environment than sports.  And only a few sports allow it as an "extra" thing like baseball and hockey.

 

But you're right, it's a snake with shoes to compare hurling an object with intent to harm someone with....hurling an object with intent to harm someone.  How dare I compare those two clearly (huh?) different (um, no, not even remotely) actions.

[big dog]

Well, I never go in to a bar expecting that someone might throw a whiskey bottle at me.  That's one difference.  And I like it that way.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Well, I never go in to a bar expecting that someone might throw a whiskey bottle at me.  That's one difference.  And I like it that way.

 

Because we enforce rules to make sure it doesn't happen.  I imagine most baseball players would prefer not to have to worry about it too.  In fact, Donaldson just said as much publicly a month or so ago.

[Dman]

 

All games police themselves.  This isn't just baseball.  Baseball just romanticizes it.  But every sport has rules for respecting your opponent and nearly every scuffle/fight/brawl in any of these sports is b/c someone disrespected someone else.  That's certainly not unique to baseball.  

 

But where does the policing end.  Does Manny get to bring his baseball bat out and repeatedly pummel the pitcher with it?  After all he is only protecting himself.  Self policing just brings on escalation.  How about just creating a policy where if the league feels a pitcher is throwing at guys they say sorry you are out of the league.  Problem solved.  There is no reason for self policing it is a bad idea and all sports are trying to root it out with suspensions and better rules for player safety.

 

If self policing is such a grand idea then get rid of the umpires and let the players decide whats a ball or strike or who is safe or out?  It's not a good idea that s why you have impartial judges and now instant replay to decide things.  When players decide things it ends up in a fight so get rid of the players that cause it and it will go away.  No need for self policing then.

 

If you follow the rules of the game you don't need any self policing.  Self policing is a lie to enable players to get away with physically hurting their opponents for hurting their feelings.  If players do this they should be suspended and ultimately booted from the game.  Then it will magically stop and the game will be better for it.

[gunnarthor]

 

 

If you follow the rules of the game you don't need any self policing.  Self policing is a lie to enable players to get away with physically hurting their opponents for hurting their feelings.  If players do this they should be suspended and ultimately booted from the game.  Then it will magically stop and the game will be better for it.

That's silly.  Every single sport - frankly, every workplace - has unwritten rules about proper behavior.  I suspect you say stuff on the internet that you wouldn't dare say to a co-worker because the setting is different.  You know which people in your office you can cuss around without concern and which co-workers would consider it harassment.  Every workplace. 

 

Why do we expect pro players to be calmer?  Some idiot on the internet insults you and, even after letting it stew for 10 minutes, you post something in return knowing full well that if you said it to his face, he'd deck you.  And vice versa.  Expecting professional athletes, who are way more competitive than us to not respond to someone disrespecting them is naive.  That's why there are rules, unwritten as they are, on how to respond.  As Maddon said, you can go to first or go to the mound.  You don't get to bring your bat.  It makes sense, in its own way.  And every sport deals with it in its own way. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

 You know which people in your office you can cuss around without concern and which co-workers would consider it harassment.  Every workplace. 

 

And my point is that no workplace I have ever worked in was the option of being punched or harmed for any of the things you listed a real thing.  Or a way of policing conduct.  If that were to have happened at any of those workplaces (and any, really, outside of sports) the offender would have been fired and potentially sued or held criminally responsible.  

 

The only reason they still happen in sports is the misguided machismo that a punch in the face, a baseball in the ribs, a dirty elbow, a check from behind, or any other form of violence somehow teaches a lesson.  It doesn't.  It just results in violence.  

 

You're welcome, by the way, to be entertained by that.  I enjoy MMA and boxing, I played and loved football.  I just don't wrap myself in some false notion of what I'm entertained by.  And I don't cheer for it to happen for BS reasons.

[gunnarthor]

 

 

I don't know of any setting in which violence and attempt to physically harm others is tolerated as part of the workplace environment than sports.  And only a few sports allow it as an "extra" thing like baseball and hockey.

 

But you're right, it's a snake with shoes to compare hurling an object with intent to harm someone with....hurling an object with intent to harm someone.  How dare I compare those two clearly (huh?) different (um, no, not even remotely) actions.

Every sport allows "extra" things - not just hockey and baseball.  In football, its on every play - its so common we don't even notice it anymore.  Captain Motterlyn (I absolutely misspelled that) suplexs Drew Brees into the ground and gets an unnecessary roughing penalty and we all complain about the call.  Saints players openly intend to knock the QB out the game and we all go, sure.  In basketball, players hit each other with "accidental" elbows to send messages.  Even in horse racing, jockeys hit each other with their whips.

 

Your complaint that you can do violence in sports but not a bar is silly.  You can't tackle a guy in a bar.  You can't spike the whiskey bottle in a bar.  You can't swear or cuss out someone else in a bar.  You can't swing a bat in a bar.  You keep comparing the social norms of one setting (sports) and complain that they don't work in another setting (work place or a bar).  You can't compare them. They are too different.  There's crap I can't do in America that I could do in Europe - it's useless to make those kind of comparisons. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Your complaint that you can do violence in sports but not a bar is silly.  You can't tackle a guy in a bar.  You can't spike the whiskey bottle in a bar.  You can't swear or cuss out someone else in a bar.  You can't swing a bat in a bar.  You keep comparing the social norms of one setting (sports) and complain that they don't work in another setting (work place or a bar).  You can't compare them. They are too different.  There's crap I can't do in America that I could do in Europe - it's useless to make those kind of comparisons. 

 

Yes, you can swear at someone in a bar, I'm not sure what bars you've been in.  Swinging a bat is also allowed, just don't hit anyone with it.  You can't tackle people, but tackling is a systemically allowed part of a game.  Throwing baseballs at people for staring at their homerun is not.  

 

I'll say that again, this is a point you seem unwilling to contemplate.  Tackling is allowed in football.  It's part of what makes the game football.  There is nothing about baseball that requires you to throw at people or slide into their knees.  It is not part of what makes it baseball.  That's what people like to believe to justify what they like (BLOOD!), but it's not true.

[gunnarthor]

 

Yes, you can swear at someone in a bar, I'm not sure what bars you've been in.  Swinging a bat is also allowed, just don't hit anyone with it.  You can't tackle people, but tackling is a systemically allowed part of a game.  Throwing baseballs at people for staring at their homerun is not.  

 

I'll say that again, this is a point you seem unwilling to contemplate.  Tackling is allowed in football.  It's part of what makes the game football.  There is nothing about baseball that requires you to throw at people or slide into their knees.  It is not part of what makes it baseball.  That's what people like to believe to justify what they like (BLOOD!), but it's not true.

 Sure, tackling is allowed in football.  And in baseball, throwing at a hitter is allowed.  Pitchers do it all the time to claim the inside of the plate.  Intentionally hitting someone is against the rules, just like tackling someone after the whistle is against the rules.  Both happen (and, in fairness, sometimes the motives aren't evil intent - a pitcher just might want the other team to not be comfortable.  A player might not have heard the whistle).  And in both, players deal with it in the manner that is acceptable in their setting.

 

Also, as a side note, this must be the fourth thread of mine that you've derailed into this argument.  At a certain point, it's trolling.  Maybe sit some of these out, ok?

[TheLeviathan]

 

 Sure, tackling is allowed in football.  And in baseball, throwing at a hitter is allowed.  

 

No it is not, it results in a penalty of the batter getting to go to first and the league punishes it with suspensions and fines.

 

So no, this is false.