GOT season six (spoilers galore)

[Mike Sixel]

It's common in fantasy lore that dragons are nigh invulnerable. Firing an arrow at a dragon is akin to spitting on a tank.

 

If Martin is using common fantasy tropes - and it appears he is - even the Greek fire catapults probably wouldn't hurt a dragon (and you can't really aim those things so the fleet was basically helpless against the dragons, even though they were hovering).

They hurt it when it was younger, but yes, that is a trope. I just hope there is some doubt, someplace, and the last two years aren't a predictable tying up.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

They hurt it when it was younger, but yes, that is a trope. I just hope there is some doubt, someplace, and the last two years aren't a predictable tying up.

That is also consistent with fantasy tropes. Dragon scales become increasingly dense throughout the dragon's life. An ancient dragon is basically invincible in most fantasy stories. Anything smaller than a massive wheel-mounted ballista will bounce off their scales (even swords).

 

In case you can't tell, I had this same debate with myself during the dragon scene.

[Mike Sixel]

Ha. Yes, I was sitting there trying to figure out how the white walkers could possibly hurt the dragons. I mean, the masters knew there were dragons, and just quit. And, I know all the tropes, Brock......maybe a white walker warg.....

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

For me the tension came in just how much of Jon's forces were going to get slaughtered before the Vale arrived.  They dragged it out for a long time.  Plus - this show has only given us cruelty for so long I was resisting the urge my brain was giving me to expect the worst the entire time. 

Yes to both of these. I figured Jon would survive - and that the Vale would save him - but given the show's brutal history and disappointment, I felt myself wavering on that certainty throughout the battle.

 

It was a good example of taking a bad story element - the depressing, relentless nature of earlier seasons - and turning it into a positive later in the story. Without that brutality of earlier seasons, the battle would have lacked any kind of intrigue... But I just couldn't get those horrible moments out of my mind.

 

It appears the story is doing the same thing for its female characters. By making them a combination of inept and/or feckless, we slowly began to dislike them all... Only to see most of them redeemed over the past several episodes. Also, the use of female brutality earlier in the series makes the likelihood of women trusting each other to share power more likely and less contrived.

 

Not that I'm excusing past mistakes, just saying "when given lemons, make lemonade".

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Ha. Yes, I was sitting there trying to figure out how the white walkers could possibly hurt the dragons. I mean, the masters knew there were dragons, and just quit. And, I know all the tropes, Brock......maybe a white walker warg.....

The dragons would trounce the zombie walker things but the actual white walkers... Well, I don't think we've seen everything in their bag of tricks quite yet. I think we'll see some power-leveling from beyond the wall once the south sorts itself out a bit.

 

After all, the name of the series is "A Song of Ice and Fire". We've now seen the fire in action, I suspect the ice will have similar wow factor down the road.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Ha. Yes, I was sitting there trying to figure out how the white walkers could possibly hurt the dragons. I mean, the masters knew there were dragons, and just quit. And, I know all the tropes, Brock......maybe a white walker warg.....

 

The Targs took over Westeros basically on the ability for Dragons to wipe out entire armies (field of fire) and castles (Harrenhal, from back in the Tywin/Arya scenes).  They basically only died off when the Targs had a series of civil wars and struggled to continue breeding them until they went extinct.

[Mike Sixel]

The Targs took over Westeros basically on the ability for Dragons to wipe out entire armies (field of fire) and castles (Harrenhal, from back in the Tywin/Arya scenes). They basically only died off when the Targs had a series of civil wars and struggled to continue breeding them until they went extinct.

Yup. Sounds boring....and I love fantasy.

[gunnarthor]

 

The Targs took over Westeros basically on the ability for Dragons to wipe out entire armies (field of fire) and castles (Harrenhal, from back in the Tywin/Arya scenes).  They basically only died off when the Targs had a series of civil wars and struggled to continue breeding them until they went extinct.

Yeah, I think the only big dragon killed in battle by men (as opposed to other dragons) got a ballista shot in the eyeball in Dorne.  The boats in Mareen certainly didn't have those.  

[Willihammer]

Did Ghost bite the dust already? Maybe I fogot. He didn't show up in the battle, I expected him to bail out Jon in a near death engagement but he never showed.

[jimmer]

Ghost and Nymeria are the only two direwolves that are still alive.

[Willihammer]

Thanks. Curious that he missed the battle then.

 

In the books Nymeria creates and leads a super-pack. Maybe there is a connection there.

[jimmer]

 

Thanks. Curious that he missed the battle then.

In the books Nymeria creates and leads a super-pack. Maybe there is a connection there.

He would have been slaughtered in that mangled group of bodies.  I also believe, though not sure, that he was left at castle black. Not sure I remember him leaving with Jon when he left the castle.

 

Edit, after reading up, the director said it was between the Giant and Ghost for screen time and he chose the giant.   So I guess he is with Jon, just wasn't in the battle (which, again, I think is a good thing.  He would have been toast)

[Brock Beauchamp]

Refresh my memory, somebody... Who still has Dire Wolves?

 

Only Jon and Arya, right?

[Willihammer]

By my count we have confirmed deaths on Lady, Grey Wind, and Summer. Nymeria (Arya's) was sent into the wild. We saw what appeared to be Shaggydog's head at the start of last week's episode. Ghost is MIA as far as the audience knows.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

By my count we have confirmed deaths on Lady, Grey Wind, and Summer. Nymeria (Arya's) was sent into the wild. We saw what appeared to be Shaggydog's head at the start of last week's episode. Ghost is MIA as far as the audience knows.

That sounds right. Really, the Direwolves have been one of the weaker spots of both the show and novels. They were played up to be these amazing creatures but only two of them have a role worth noting, at least as far as I remember:

 

Summer was used by Bran as a key story element and Bran experienced much of his story through Summer's eyes. Also, Summer sacrificed him/herself heroically.

 

Ghost has routinely defended Jon and generally kicked a lot of ass.

 

The other three have been basically useless.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Yeah, I think the only big dragon killed in battle by men (as opposed to other dragons) got a ballista shot in the eyeball in Dorne.  The boats in Mareen certainly didn't have those.  

 

Ah yes, forgot that they failed with a Dragon to take Dorne.  There may have been some others as well, I think during the Targ civil wars there was a dragon and rider that were lured into a trap and a number of ships (all with men firing a range of weaponry at it) managed to take it down.

 

But the examples are few and far between.

[Mike Sixel]

Those videos you attached....there appear to be several different makers of similar videos on youtube....anyone have a recommendation for which to watch?

 

I thought about this more last night......

 

I feel all dirty for not liking the show right now. It is well done, high budget, a generally good story, has dragons in it, I should be loving this. Maybe my expectations are too high.

 

But, this article sums up my feelings (not my favorite source, or style):

http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/20/11974424/game-of-thrones-recap-season-6-episode-9-battle-of-the-bastards

 

[TheLeviathan]

There is a cartoon for each season Mike and the voices change based on the actors reading their parts.  I'd look for the ones that state they are attached to the GOT's DVDs.

 

As for that review, I think we sometimes over think things when it comes to characters.  We expect pure, unadulterated logic and foresight when, in reality, many of us act stupidly and emotionally every day.  We just do it in our own particular ways.  Jon is honest, honorable, and puts pride into his family.  Basically, he tries every day to be Ned.  

 

Were his actions foolish.  Yes.  But if characters never acted foolishly we'd never have dramas.  It's human nature and, as jimmer said earlier, his reaction was absolutely Jon.  Gullible, naive, emotional, and honorable Jon.  

[Brock Beauchamp]

Yeah, I was hoping Jon wasn't going to do the stupid thing but I didn't get annoyed when he did because it fits his character. He made it through the mistake and hopefully, will learn something from it and the writers will take advantage of last episode to make the character grow more.

[Mike Sixel]

Ha, I'm not asking for some kind of flawless uber mensh.....but I can't imagine any commander worth his salt doing what Jon did. Plus, it was just darned predictable......

 

Those came with the blu rays? I own three or four seasons of blu rays......

[Willihammer]

Ghost has routinely defended Jon and generally kicked a lot of ass.

Yeah which is why his absence from the battle seems so strange. I have a hard time believing it was simply a technical issue with screen time. Wouldn't take much to plug him into a quick shot just to confirm his whereabouts. From what the audience knows, Ghost was locked up when Jon was murdered, but since then ??? We haven't seen him once I believe.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

It's weird. The show largely passed over the Arya "holding pattern" we suffered through in the books (her seemingly endless circle with Riverrun and the Hound) but then proceeded to drag out her story in Easteros, adding a different holding pattern there.

 

It's as if they know we want to see Arya return to Westeros and kick ass but either didn't care or didn't have the energy to make her voyage toward the series' end game interesting. Instead, they just let her circle the drain for awhile and then plan to plug her back into the main story thread when it's convenient (which appears to be now).

 

The easiest fix for the problem would have been to speed up her exit from Easteros and then reunite her with Caitlyn in Westeros, which instantly brings them both back into the fray we care about.

 

Having her meet Brienne would have been another acceptable solution. The story needs to continue aggressively merging storylines. That doesn't mean Caitlyn needs to join Sansa/Jon or anyone else but we should start seeing character storylines merge at nearly a one per episode pace. Having 5-6 small groups of allies makes every storyline more exciting, even if those small groups don't merge into one supergroup right off the bat (or at all).

 

I don't know... maybe she stole a few faces from the faceless.  The training might be boring, but I suspect it will be used at a later time.

[Mike Sixel]

I think the dire wolves definitely suffer from under use........much like the white walkers. Where are they, and what are they doing?

 

It would have been awesome to see Arya's wolf lead a huge pack into that Battle of the Bastards, for example. Or Ghost to lead a small pack after Ramsey when no one was around.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I don't know... maybe she stole a few faces from the faceless.  The training might be boring, but I suspect it will be used at a later time.

Sure, I think the training will serve a purpose, the storyline just seemed a bit like an afterthought. They had the idea to get Arya to Easteros and the training but then didn't do much with the storyline once she was there.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I should note that if dragon glass can kill a white walker, then I'd think dragons can too.  Just my 2 cents.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I should note that if dragon glass can kill a white walker, then I'd think dragons can too.  Just my 2 cents.

 

?

 

I think everyone agrees a dragon can kill the white walkers.....the question is, how can they fight the dragons? Because if they can't, well, that sounds like that part of the story could be kind of boring just watching them hover (how?) over the field and burning all the zombies and white walkers.

[Willihammer]

Dragons could die when Dany sieges King's Landing, that would level the playing field.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Ha, I'm not asking for some kind of flawless uber mensh.....but I can't imagine any commander worth his salt doing what Jon did. Plus, it was just darned predictable......

 

Those came with the blu rays? I own three or four seasons of blu rays......

 

That was Jon's first time at any real command opportunity.  Certainly with that kind of manpower in play.  It was dumb and emotional, but that's also just who Jon is.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I think the dire wolves definitely suffer from under use........much like the white walkers. Where are they, and what are they doing?

 

Compared to the source material the show has put a giant spotlight on the White Walkers.  The books opened with them and then has put virtually no effort into further unveiling their role in the series.  Or anything about them.  Or even having encounters with them.

 

They've basically been an afterthought for about 4-5,000 pages.

[TheLeviathan]

 

?

 

I think everyone agrees a dragon can kill the white walkers.....the question is, how can they fight the dragons? Because if they can't, well, that sounds like that part of the story could be kind of boring just watching them hover (how?) over the field and burning all the zombies and white walkers.

 

There are definitely magical qualities to the White Walkers.  The extent of those powers have never been put on display in their full capacity, at least not that we have seen or know of.  

 

But I absolutely imagine the dragons will all be in play in that battle.  Or at least they'll be key to it.