Bryce Harper on Unwritten Rules, Changing the Culture of Baseball

[TheLeviathan]

This is off topic but I'd strongly disagree that the NBA and NFL have reduced this. It's getting to the point to me where the NFL is getting unwatchable because they'd rather show some sack dance than the actual sack.

 

And usually on an inconsequential 1st down play anyway.

The reductions have been specific. I actually agree that there is still plenty of it in both leagues.

[TheLeviathan]

those practices would end if Bryce Harpers didn't come along every generation.

Is that it? Or is there always another butthurt racist like Gossage that'll come along and make something out of nothing?

 

The unwritten rules didn't stop Todd Bertuzzu, or Chase Utley, or anyone else that deliberately set out to hurt someone for "the code"

 

Like I said, if you want this "classy" stuff to continue - actually codify it. Stop letting the likes of Gossage or Papelbon set the terms.

[Vanimal46]

 

This is off topic but I'd strongly disagree that the NBA and NFL have reduced this. It's getting to the point to me where the NFL is getting unwatchable because they'd rather show some sack dance than the actual sack.

 

And usually on an inconsequential 1st down play anyway.

I think you're in the vast minority on this. There's a reason that the NFL's revenues have grown exponentially over the last 5 years.... Up more than 50% and expected to surpass $16 billion... 

The NFL has perfected their marketing of always keeping the league in the news, and knows first and foremost it's in entertainment.. MLB still needs to figure that out in order to get more people in my age bracket interested in the sport. 

[nicksaviking]

I think it's a generational thing. It took me a couple days to even read the article, and honestly with no offense to our quality young posters, I didn't give two craps about 23-year-old baseball celebrity Bryce Harper's thoughts about baseball or the world.

 

And that's not fair. I mean I shouldn't have to give two craps, but I should respect that fact that he has views.

 

Talking about showboating and tacking it to the younger generation is also foolish. Whether it actually happened or not, Babe Ruth was immortalized for calling his shot in the World Series. Good Lord, think of the outrage if Harper did that now.

[Vanimal46]

I think it's a generational thing. It took me a couple days to even read the article, and honestly with no offense to our quality young posters, I didn't give two craps about 23-year-old baseball celebrity Bryce Harper's thoughts about baseball or the world.

 

And that's not fair. I mean I shouldn't have to give two craps, but I should respect that fact that he has views.

 

Talking about showboating and tacking it to the younger generation is also foolish. Whether it actually happened or not, Babe Ruth was immortalized for calling his shot in the World Series. Good Lord, think of the outrage if Harper did that now.

Absolutely agree. I don't blame you for not caring what a 23 year old athlete has to say. 10 years from now when Randy Johnson Jr gives his 2 cents I'm going to feel the same way you do today.

 

The reality is players like Harper and Fernandez are the future of the sport. And they could bring a lot of new fans and attention to the league if their personalities were allowed to shine on the baseball field. I hope players my age break the mold of accepting when another player succeeds against them, instead of retaliation like they've been doing the last 100+ years.

 

It's absolutely a generational thing too. It's funny how a guy like Gossage glosses over the fact that Rickey Henderson and Reggie Jackson during his era were notorious showboaters... no matter the era, there's examples of it.

[nicksaviking]

Ha, yes, particularly Rickey. There may not have been a more self-absorbed player in the history of the game. My favorite Rickey story is a tie between:

 

The time he asked John Olerud why he wore a helmet on the field while they were teammates with the Mets. After Olerud told him why, Rickey responded that he'd played with another guy with the Blue Jays who had the same condition. At that point Olerud told Rickey they had been teammates with the Blue Jays too.

 

and

 

The time a teammate told him that Tom Robson had been fired. Rickey asked who that was and was informed that it was his hitting coach.

 

And I use the phrase "favorite" Rickey stories on purpose. He has a hundred baffling and insane stories which I find utterly awesome, yet I would struggle to be anything other than annoyed if these occurred with a young ballplayer. It's not fair and I acknowledge the hypocrisy.

 

And really, I'm not that old, just old enough that Rickey was a guy from my youth, Harper isn't.

[tobi0040]

I think Harper has a point about the double standard between pitchers and hitters.  No question.

 

Goose Gossage is obviously a complete idiot and the media should not give the man a platform.

 

But the thing that rubbed me the wrong way about the article was it seemed to anoint Harper as “the guy” in baseball.  They referred to him as prodigy over and over.  He had a great year last year, no question.  But the guy has been somewhat under-whelming relative to the expectations thrown at him prior to last year.  If you compare him with Mike Trout, Harper has the best season but Trout has the next four by a huge margin.  Albert Pujols has eight seasons with an OPS above 1.000 and pretty much started at age 21.  So I guess Harper isn’t the guy I would crown quite yet.  I think he needs to string multiple together before he is crowned anything.

[biggentleben]

I think Harper has a point about the double standard between pitchers and hitters. No question.

 

Goose Gossage is obviously a complete idiot and the media should not give the man a platform.

 

But the thing that rubbed me the wrong way about the article was it seemed to anoint Harper as “the guy” in baseball. They referred to him as prodigy over and over. He had a great year last year, no question. But the guy has been somewhat under-whelming relative to the expectations thrown at him prior to last year. If you compare him with Mike Trout, Harper has the best season but Trout has the next four by a huge margin. Albert Pujols has eight seasons with an OPS above 1.000 and pretty much started at age 21. So I guess Harper isn’t the guy I would crown quite yet. I think he needs to string multiple together before he is crowned anything.

If he never had 2015, he'd be a prodigy. Before he was 16, he hit a ball completely out of a AAA park with a wood bat. No one had e ever done that before. When he was still 13-14, he hit a home run in a game that landed on a car outside the park, with estimates on the distance between 480-500 feet! Most of us at 14 are figuring out which acne cream to use. He was using wood bats to hit balls distances reserved for guys like Mickey Mantle. That's the textbook definition of s prodigy, even if he never makes the majors.

[tobi0040]

If he never had 2015, he'd be a prodigy. Before he was 16, he hit a ball completely out of a AAA park with a wood bat. No one had e ever done that before. When he was still 13-14, he hit a home run in a game that landed on a car outside the park, with estimates on the distance between 480-500 feet! Most of us at 14 are figuring out which acne cream to use. He was using wood bats to hit balls distances reserved for guys like Mickey Mantle. That's the textbook definition of s prodigy, even if he never makes the majors.

But that is no different than the mythical stories of top prospects in the past.

 

Mauer had his pick of 1-1 in baseball or QB at Florida State. He probably could have been an NFL QB

 

Buxton threw 99 off a mound as a Jr in high school. He tied Bo Jacksons time to first as a right hander in high school. And he allegedly threw a football 82 yards his junior year.

 

I guess none of the Harper stories are any different and maybe that makes them all former prodigies. But Harper strikes me as extremely arrogant and that is probably why I feel different about him.

[USAFChief]

I think you're in the vast minority on this. There's a reason that the NFL's revenues have grown exponentially over the last 5 years.... Up more than 50% and expected to surpass $16 billion... 

The NFL has perfected their marketing of always keeping the league in the news, and knows first and foremost it's in entertainment.. MLB still needs to figure that out in order to get more people in my age bracket interested in the sport.

 

MLB sold more tickets in 2015 than the NFL, NBA, and NHL combined.

 

But, you have a point in that keeping itself in the news is an NFL priority. I may be in the minority here, but I'm more than fine with MLB taking a somewhat different tack. In fact, one of the things I like about baseball is it's NOT the NFL.

 

And quite frankly, I strongly hope it never becomes more like the NBA or NFL. The sport is the product, not the individual personalities.

[whitsbrain]

 

I think you're in the vast minority on this. There's a reason that the NFL's revenues have grown exponentially over the last 5 years.... Up more than 50% and expected to surpass $16 billion... 

The NFL has perfected their marketing of always keeping the league in the news, and knows first and foremost it's in entertainment.. MLB still needs to figure that out in order to get more people in my age bracket interested in the sport. 

 

Um...it's simple.  Gambling.

 

NFL Revenues = Fantasy Football

NCAA Revenues = March Madness

 

All that MLB has to do is find a fun way for people to piss away their money and the popularity of the league will skyrocket.

[jimmer]

 

MLB sold more tickets in 2015 than the NFL, NBA, and NHL combined.
 

MLB teams play 10 times as many games as an NFL team and about twice as many as both NBA and Hockey teams.   

 

Seating available at hockey and NBA games is much less than baseball stadiums. The only league that has more seating than MLB fields are NFL stadiums, but each NFL team only gets 8 home games each during a regular season (1/10 of the games each home team get in MLB). So basically it seems there are more tickets available for the baseball games than all the others combined.

 

Not to mention MLB prices are much less because each team have 81 regular season games to get fans in the gate.  

 

But all that together, and I'm not sure we can say baseball is more popular because of tickets sales comparison.  NFL is king in this country.

[biggentleben]

 

But that is no different than the mythical stories of top prospects in the past.

Mauer had his pick of 1-1 in baseball or QB at Florida State. He probably could have been an NFL QB

Buxton threw 99 off a mound as a Jr in high school. He tied Bo Jacksons time to first as a right hander in high school. And he allegedly threw a football 82 yards his junior year.

I guess none of the Harper stories are any different and maybe that makes them all former prodigies. But Harper strikes me as extremely arrogant and that is probably why I feel different about him.

 

There have been 50 1.1 picks in baseball. There are probably over 50 guys right now in baseball who can top 99. I watched Jamarcus Russell throw a ball over 80 yards and he was less an athlete than Matthew LeCroy, as far as his ability to succeed as a professional.

 

Harper was doing things with a wood bat that were legendary for professional players. He got a lot of hype starting at a very young age, and I think that media attention has turned a lot of people off of him, no matter how his personality was - good or bad, much like LeBron James has a similar cloud, though he's very possibly the opposite end personality-wise of Harper, but he was hyped from about age 13, and there gets to be a level of fan dissent just because of over-saturation.

[biggentleben]

 

The sport is the product, not the individual personalities.

 

I do appreciate this aspect of baseball. My nephew loves Kurt Suzuki, but before that, he loved Joe Mauer. He doesn't necessarily love players, he loves the position of catcher and the way it's used in the game. Baseball as a game is a great game, and I cannot wait to have children of my own to introduce them to the great game as well. Heck, my wife has found my passion for the game infectious and learned to find things in the game that she really enjoys now, beyond the best food stands and amenities at each ballpark.

[Vanimal46]

MLB sold more tickets in 2015 than the NFL, NBA, and NHL combined.

 

But, you have a point in that keeping itself in the news is an NFL priority. I may be in the minority here, but I'm more than fine with MLB taking a somewhat different tack. In fact, one of the things I like about baseball is it's NOT the NFL.

 

And quite frankly, I strongly hope it never becomes more like the NBA or NFL. The sport is the product, not the individual personalities.

Come on Chief you're smarter than that with that statistic. 81 opportunities to buy an MLB ticket compared to 8 NFL games, 41 NBA/NHL games. If the number of opportunities are equal, you don't think the NFL blows every league out of the water?

 

The sport is still the product in all of those leagues as well. The NFL and NBA in particular just know how to market the athlete's personalities exponentially better than the MLB. Hence why the popularity of those leagues are increasing. Meanwhile America's National Past Time is becoming just that, a past time, with my age bracket.

[Vanimal46]

MLB teams play 10 times as many games as an NFL team and about twice as many as both NBA and Hockey teams.

 

Seating available at hockey and NBA games is much less than baseball stadiums. The only league that has more seating than MLB fields are NFL stadiums, but each NFL team only gets 8 home games each during a regular season (1/10 of the games each home team get in MLB). So basically it seems there are more tickets available for the baseball games than all the others combined.

 

Not to mention MLB prices are much less because each team have 81 regular season games to get fans in the gate.

 

But all that together, and I'm not sure we can say baseball is more popular because of tickets sales comparison. NFL is king in this country.

Should have looked before I posted my response to Chief. You hit the nail right on the head jimmer.

[Vanimal46]

Um...it's simple. Gambling.

 

NFL Revenues = Fantasy Football

NCAA Revenues = March Madness

 

All that MLB has to do is find a fun way for people to piss away their money and the popularity of the league will skyrocket.

That's strange, fantasy baseball doesn't exist on ESPN, yahoo, CBS Sports, or any other fantasy website?

 

My buddy just went to Vegas last week and I gave him some money for futures bets in the MLB. That receipt he gave me was a fake?

[TheLeviathan]

In terms of revenue, baseball is second to the NFL.  Going by ticket sales is stacking the deck.

 

I don't think any of the sports are in danger of losing fans if this goes one way or the other.  The real question is, do you really want to agree with a loudmouth racist like Gossage?  Because those are the true keepers of the code.  It's them you are trusting to operate self-policing when you choose to keep these rules unwritten rather than written.

 

I, for one, am glad the game is moving further and further away from them every year.  I hope in my lifetime most of them are gone and no one eats a fastball in the teeth for the audacity of bunting against a shift.   Or no one has their leg broken by a kamikaze slide.  Then I can watch the actual athletes play the actual game.

[USAFChief]

Come on Chief you're smarter than that with that statistic. 81 opportunities to buy an MLB ticket compared to 8 NFL games, 41 NBA/NHL games. If the number of opportunities are equal, you don't think the NFL blows every league out of the water?

The sport is still the product in all of those leagues as well. The NFL and NBA in particular just know how to market the athlete's personalities exponentially better than the MLB. Hence why the popularity of those leagues are increasing. Meanwhile America's National Past Time is becoming just that, a past time, with my age bracket.

I'm simply disputing the argument that a) baseball is strangling, and 2) that there is a need to change it to be more like the NFL.

 

The NFK is king, no doubt. That doesn't mean I like it more than baseball. Do you?

[USAFChief]

In terms of revenue, baseball is second to the NFL. Going by ticket sales is stacking the deck.

 

I don't think any of the sports are in danger of losing fans if this goes one way or the other. The real question is, do you really want to agree with a loudmouth racist like Gossage? Because those are the true keepers of the code. It's them you are trusting to operate self-policing when you choose to keep these rules unwritten rather than written.

 

I, for one, am glad the game is moving further and further away from them every year. I hope in my lifetime most of them are gone and no one eats a fastball in the teeth for the audacity of bunting against a shift. Or no one has their leg broken by a kamikaze slide. Then I can watch the actual athletes play the actual game.

1, I think using "a loudmouth racist like Gossage" as the primary example of anyone who has respect for the game's traditions and history is a pretty cheap and dishonest argument.

 

2. I specifically don't want MLB to get to the point where the league has to codify how high and how far your bat flip can be before we ... What? Award strike one to the pitcher on the next hitter in the lineup? I like the fact, in this sport, players have pretty much handled this. Penalties haven't done any good in the NFL anyway. It's as ridiculous as ever, only now, some dentist from Akron gets to decide if it warrants a 15 yard penalty, which makes for great material for Chris Berman to breathlessly analyze on the post game show, but wasn't about football.

 

No...I think it's better if we just minimize the conduct itself, rather than let it get so out of hand we need rules written about it.

 

BTW...nobody gets one in the teeth...that's against the unwritten rules. He might get one in the backside, and I'm ok with that. Take your base, steal second and third, and score on a fly ball. Next time maybe the pitcher won't give you first base.

[TheLeviathan]

The unwritten rules are in the eye of the beholder. The true motive? Not staying classy, more like what Jon Baker said (paraphrasing) 'unwritten rules exist because the sport of baseball minimizes opportunity for retaliation"

 

That's what it's about, straight from a player - it's about retaliating about being butthurt. After Bertuzzi the NHL took the power of policing away and the game is safer today. The two slide rule changes the last two year stake us closer to the same.

 

Then the McCarthys, Gibsons, Gossages, and Rockers of the world are no longer in charge of deciding the decorum. Like it or not, you are taking the side of a guy who went on an ignorant racist rant - and he meant every word. That's the guy holding the baseball.

[jimmer]

I disagree with the notion that fans/players that don't agree with so many of the unwritten rules (like hurting someone because they dared show emotion for doing something good) somehow don't have respect for the history and tradition of the game.  You can respect the game's history and tradition while still wanting it to evolve.

[tobi0040]

There have been 50 1.1 picks in baseball. There are probably over 50 guys right now in baseball who can top 99. I watched Jamarcus Russell throw a ball over 80 yards and he was less an athlete than Matthew LeCroy, as far as his ability to succeed as a professional.

 

Harper was doing things with a wood bat that were legendary for professional players. He got a lot of hype starting at a very young age, and I think that media attention has turned a lot of people off of him, no matter how his personality was - good or bad, much like LeBron James has a similar cloud, though he's very possibly the opposite end personality-wise of Harper, but he was hyped from about age 13, and there gets to be a level of fan dissent just because of over-saturation.

The point is Buxton was not a football prospect And many NFL quarterbacks can't throw a ball that far.

 

To a certain extend over-saturation plays a role. But I think the biggest piece is the fact that he is cocky. He was no more hyped than James. Peyton Manning. Andrew Luck. Or Alex Rodriguez. Likely less hyped than most of these guys.

 

Look at how Bonds is viewed versus Mark McGwire. Being a decent human being influenced public perception in a huge way.

[jorgenswest]

Any intentional attempt to injure another player is disrespecting the game.

 

Showing emotion by flipping a bat following a home run, celebrating a strike three or a great play to end an inning does nothing to disrespect the game. There are aspects of the game atmosphere as played in winter ball leagues that would increase interest in the game as played here the summer.

[USAFChief]

I disagree with the notion that fans/players that don't agree with so many of the unwritten rules (like hurting someone because they dared show emotion for doing something good) somehow don't have respect for the history and tradition of the game.  You can respect the game's history and tradition while still wanting it to evolve.

I disagree with the notion that there are unwritten rules about genuinely showing emotion. Again...nobody took offense to Carlton Fisk. Joe Carter.

 

Where we seem to have some disagreement is whether or not Jose Bautista throwing his bat 20 ft in the air, pimping and preening at home plate, and telling the ESPN generation "look at ME!" Is a natural evolution of respect for the game.

[biggentleben]

 

The point is Buxton was not a football prospect And many NFL quarterbacks can't throw a ball that far.

To a certain extend over-saturation plays a role. But I think the biggest piece is the fact that he is cocky. He was no more hyped than James. Peyton Manning. Andrew Luck. Or Alex Rodriguez. Likely less hyped than most of these guys.

Look at how Bonds is viewed versus Mark McGwire. Being a decent human being influenced public perception in a huge way.

 

Not exactly. A huge portion of how perception sits has to do with modern information saturation. The internet and "easy" access to tons of information has allowed even the most casual of fans to see a 16 year-old Bryce Harper video on multiple formats whereas even the most devoted of fans, like myself, could not find a video of Alex Rodriguez doing anything nor Peyton Manning. Andrew Luck certainly wasn't regarded as a "prodigy" as he wasn't even considered the unanimous #1 pick in his own draft year (for that matter, neither was Peyton). Harper has been labeled with generational talent at hitting a baseball since he was barely a teenager, and he was hitting home runs in the major leagues when he was a teenager. Yes, he sports an attitude, but much of that attitude is media-driven and frequently off base as well. I found Bryce incredibly engaging and one of the hardest working players on the field in the multiple games I saw of his last summer. Heck, he's the best player for a division rival of my favorite team, and I find myself defending him more often than not because I'm blown away by how 5-10 minute snippets of Harper are what people take away as who he is as a person. God forbid anyone view my life similarly.

[TheLeviathan]

I don't see much difference between what Bautista did versus Fisk or even Kirby Puckett. He celebrated a massive emotional moment and for that he's a disgrace to everyone that shares his skin color apparently and some of you are actually siding with the idiot that said that. Idiots like Gossage and Bertuzzi are the bannermen of unwritten rules - those are the types that are deciding what should or should not be enforced.

 

It took an on ice assault for hockey to learn, what's it going to take for baseball?

[jimmer]

 

I don't see much difference between what Bautista did versus Fisk or even Kirby Puckett. He celebrated a massive emotional moment and for that he's a disgrace to everyone that shares his skin color apparently and some of you are actually siding with the idiot that said that. Idiots like Gossage and Bertuzzi are the bannermen of unwritten rules - those are the types that are deciding what should or should not be enforced.

It took an on ice assault for hockey to learn, what's it going to take for baseball?

Yeah, that bat flip was awesome.  It made that HR moment very memorable and even some serious old school people in the media seemed to enjoy that flip.  I'll take that kind of disgraceful player on my team any day.

[jimmer]

 

Any intentional attempt to injure another player is disrespecting the game.

Showing emotion by flipping a bat following a home run, celebrating a strike three or a great play to end an inning does nothing to disrespect the game. There are aspects of the game atmosphere as played in winter ball leagues that would increase interest in the game as played here the summer.

exactly.

[Vanimal46]

I disagree with the notion that there are unwritten rules about genuinely showing emotion. Again...nobody took offense to Carlton Fisk. Joe Carter.

Where we seem to have some disagreement is whether or not Jose Bautista throwing his bat 20 ft in the air, pimping and preening at home plate, and telling the ESPN generation "look at ME!" Is a natural evolution of respect for the game.

The Bautista moment was in a critical game 5 to advance his team to the next round of the playoffs. When exactly can a person show excitement for his accomplishments? Only in the World Series?