Another school shooting (Oregon) - Ho hum

[Mike Sixel]

It's funny, because the right's answer to almost everything is to criminalize it, or eliminate it......

[TheLeviathan]

 

then we do what, just let the gun worshippers have their way, and live with gun deaths and give up?

I'm waiting for one of the right wingers to come in here with an idea.....anyone?

 

The gun worshippers and their power over the government are a bane on our country, no doubt.  We do need to push back with laws, but we need to do much more than that.  The laws themselves are a pretty superficial fix.

 

Some of the other things are larger scope issues on poverty and criminalization.  Which run into a host of problems.  It's a really hard issue.

[TheLeviathan]

 

It's funny, because the right's answer to almost everything is to criminalize it, or eliminate it......

 

And they are idiots for it.  Why are you joining that chorus of stupidity?

[Mike Sixel]

And they are idiots for it.  Why are you joining that chorus of stupidity?

I think if the purpose of an item is to kill, it ought to be regulated. I do not generally share that view if the purpose of an items is different than that.

 

I also see how, even though drugs are gettable in other countries, guns are not, and feel that perhaps restrictions would matter.

 

I agree, a lot of this is about poverty and other things. Funny thing, though, I don't know if poverty plays an issue in most mass shootings. Does it?

[TheLeviathan]

 

I think if the purpose of an item is to kill, it ought to be regulated. I do not generally share that view if the purpose of an items is different than that.

I also see how, even though drugs are gettable in other countries, guns are not, and feel that perhaps restrictions would matter.

I agree, a lot of this is about poverty and other things. Funny thing, though, I don't know if poverty plays an issue in most mass shootings. Does it?

 

No, the mass shootings thing is very American as well.  As are many mental health issues, quite frankly.  Our culture is very strange on that front and may go a long way to explaining this moreso than even the gun culture can.

 

Also, legalizing things is how you best regulate them.  Criminalizing them makes regulation far more difficult, that's the whole point on the drug war.

[Craig Arko]

First, sympathy to those who lost people in any of these nightmares.

 

Second, want to slow down guns? Tax the **** out of them, like cigarettes. This won't stop it, but it it will put the brakes on.

 

Third, weapons against tyranny? Better take a look at how tyranny is armed. Unless you want to start distributing anti-tank and surface to air missiles, that battle is long lost. Look for a better means to combat tyranny. Like voting.

[TheLeviathan]

Sign me up for the taxing plan, though it will also create a black market effect.  At least in that situation you continue to have regulatory oversight plus the punitive measures of the taxes.

 

Cigarettes are a good example of being to win the culture war and do major good moreso than with laws.

[DaveW]

 

Sign me up for the taxing plan, though it will also create a black market effect.  At least in that situation you continue to have regulatory oversight plus the punitive measures of the taxes.

 

Then go aggressively after the black market and punish the ever living hell out of people that participate (5 years minimium, no early parole)

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Then go aggressively after the black market and punish the ever living hell out of people that participate (5 years minimium, no early parole)

 

Gee....what else does that sound like?  And how has that worked out?

[DaveW]

 

Gee....what else does that sound like?  And how has that worked out?

That is an apples and bullets comparison.

 

Drugs get consumed, once they are consumed they are gone. Drugs also only effect the drug user, illegal guns stick around, and they can inflict harm on DOZENS of innocent victims each. We spend trillions on the war on terror, its time to spend a little bit of cash on domestic terroism prevention.

 

Will it fix everything? No, but holy **** man! These mass shootings are a weekly occurance at this point, you have to TRY something.

 

To start, I would make a mandatory 2 week waiting period, I would make a mandatory national gun registry, and I would make a mandatory signicicant background check (in those two weeks).

 

(Tax the guns, which pays for all of that)

 

 

[PseudoSABR]

 

I have had unique experiences working with actual criminals.  Have you?  

This isn't a cool way to approach this debate, dude.  What ever experience you've had is anecdotal (and really probably not transferable to the perpetrators of mass shootings), just like mine.  While I could answer in the affirmative, I don't want to inflate my opinion because of some related work experience; I want that opinion to hold weight because of its merit, not my experience.

 

I doubt this guy had a criminal record, btw (they almost never do).  We are talking about another level of violence that our criminal system does not capture on a routine base.  Actual criminals, typically don't do this kind of thing; they have very different motives.  

[TheLeviathan]

 

This isn't a cool way to approach this debate, dude.  What ever experience you've had is anecdotal, just like mine.  While I could answer in the affirmative, I don't want to inflate my opinion because of some related work experience; I wanted that opinion to hold weight because its merit, not my experience. 

 

It doesn't appear you have either.

 

Unless you think the general conservative refrain of "illegal makes it go away" is somehow a viable strategy on this one issue only.

[twinsnorth49]

 

That is an apples and bullets comparison.

 

Drugs also only effect the drug user

You can't be serious

[PseudoSABR]

 

Unless you think the general conservative refrain of "illegal makes it go away" is somehow a viable strategy on this one issue only.

I'm convinced.  Laws are thestupid.

[Craig Arko]

I gotta interject here and say making this into a personality battle between users is extraordinarily counterproductive. Is there not some other option?

 

If not, I'll drop out of this thread, too.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I'm convinced.  Laws are thestupid.

 

Again, that was obviously not the point.

 

Added criminalization and restricted access is just not going to fix this.  This is much more about our perception of guns and our unique idea of mental health in this country.  If people haven't looked at that difference relative to the rest of the world, I'd suggest reading up.

[twinsnorth49]

Your country clearly has a cultural obsession with guns, that's pretty obvious. as Pseudo points out though, every gun crime committed in the US isn't the same. ,Making it much more difficult for the average person to purchase a gun must have some chance of reducing incidents like this, no?

[TheLeviathan]

 

Your country clearly has a cultural obsession with guns, that's pretty obvious. as Pseudo points out though, every gun crime committed in the US isn't the same. ,Making it much more difficult for the average person to purchase a gun must have some chance of reducing incidents like this, no?

 

I guess it depends, there isn't really any pattern to how these guns are obtained.  Usually they are stolen from parents or loved ones who wouldn't be affected by most of the gun laws proposed.

[twinsnorth49]

 

Again, that was obviously not the point.

 

Added criminalization and restricted access is just not going to fix this.  This is much more about our perception of guns and our unique idea of mental health in this country.  If people haven't looked at that difference relative to the rest of the world, I'd suggest reading up.

As a non US citizen I can validate this. One of the most fascinating and impossible to understand conversations I have with Americans is their strong belief that owning a firearm is their God given right and a necessary requirement to protect their liberty.

 

My friends and I can only come away shaking our heads each time it comes up.

[DaveW]

 

You can't be serious

The actual "usage" of the drug effects the user. Smoking weed, shooting up heroin, doing coke etc doesn't kill innocent bystanders around you.

Guns do.

 

Obviously drugs "effect" others, through crime etc, but the end user can't take a joint and kill a dozen people with it.

[twinsnorth49]

 

The actual "usage" of the drug effects the user. Smoking weed, shooting up heroin, doing coke etc doesn't kill innocent bystanders around you.

Guns do.

 

Obviously drugs "effect" others, through crime etc, but the end user can't take a joint and kill a dozen people with it.

Thanks for clarifying, had me a little worried there.

[DaveW]

 

Thanks for clarifying, had me a little worried there.

Ha yeah, I mean obviously the effects are far reaching. But my point was the end product/end consumer can only PHYSICALLY harm themselves.

[PseudoSABR]

 

 Obama is pissed. 

 

[Hrbowski]

 

the rest of the world, that has a lot less shootings than us, disagrees.

The rest of the world uses bombs.

[biggentleben]

 

Honestly, it flabbergasts me that some of the most sincere advocates (and I realize that my response here is not to someone in that group) for the individual liberty that they see represented in the Second Amendment, would push any aspect at all of Mental Health as the way forward to avert these tragedies.

 

They're afraid of what the government might do to them if they don't have their guns. But they're not afraid of what the government might do if given widely expanded powers to decree, 'you, Sir, need to be institutionalized"?

 

Why? In nearly every state, any person can write a petition for committal for mental health reasons. A qualified mental health professional has to do the evaluation to do the final sending, but any person can write the petition under all current laws in most states.

[biggentleben]

 

The rest of the world uses bombs.

 

This deserves the Billy Madison quote.

[biggentleben]

 

I gotta interject here and say making this into a personality battle between users is extraordinarily counterproductive. Is there not some other option?

If not, I'll drop out of this thread, too.

 

I'm not sure if Ramirez really irked posters that much overnight, but today's posting has all gotten real personal/real argumentative real fast. No middle room discussion - one extreme or the other, one side or the other, no compromise.

 

Those are the days it's tough to converse on the board...

[DaveW]

 

The rest of the world uses bombs.

Um...no. I really hope you are joking because that isn't the case at all.

[DaveW]

 

 

I'm not sure if Ramirez really irked posters that much overnight, but today's posting has all gotten real personal/real argumentative real fast. No middle room discussion - one extreme or the other, one side or the other, no compromise.

 

Those are the days it's tough to converse on the board...

I don't see it getting personal that much in this thread. Lev and Pseudo have been going back and forth for more than a decade now, and respect each other immensely. It's a good debate.

[biggentleben]

 

I don't see it getting personal that much in this thread. Lev and PseudoFool have been going back and forth for more than a decade now, and respect each other immensely. It's a good debate.

 

True, especially in politics, but in other areas of the board today, there was a good share of quipping as well, so it seemed a theme of the day.