Nuclear agreement reached with Iran

[TheLeviathan]

Not to pile on, but from my understanding is that the sanctions have been extremely effective, and the Iranian people are THRILLED to have some of them lifted.

 

Hopefully this leads to cheaper Saffron prices in the US

My point of asking was more to explain Irans motivations. We can say all the nice things we want about their populace, but I think that is somewhat irrelevant. It's their government that is concerning and they have long bucked any progressive or reasonable sentiments of their populace.

[twinsnorth49]

 

My point of asking was more to explain Irans motivations. We can say all the nice things we want about their populace, but I think that is somewhat irrelevant. It's their government that is concerning and they have long bucked any progressive or reasonable sentiments of their populace.

They have a gazillion barrels of oil floating around the Persian Gulf with no place to go and their refinery infrastructure is in desperate need of foreign investment to help rebuild. 

 

This is mainly why I find Russia's compliance with this a bit odd, they have the most to lose when it comes to increased oil and gas competition in Europe.

[drjim]

 

They have a gazillion barrels of oil floating around the Persian Gulf with no place to go and their refinery infrastructure is in desperate need of foreign investment to help rebuild. 

 

This is mainly why I find Russia's compliance with this a bit odd, they have the most to lose when it comes to increased oil and gas competition in Europe.

 

But their weapons markets are currently a little dry.

[twinsnorth49]

But their weapons markets are currently a little dry.

Whose? Russia's or Iran's? One in the same so you must mean Russia.

 

What makes you say that?

[drjim]

 

Whose? Russia's or Iran's? One in the same so you must mean Russia.

What makes you say that?

 

Russia will now be able to sell weapons to Iran funded through assets that are unfrozen.

[twinsnorth49]

Russia will now be able to sell weapons to Iran funded through assets that are unfrozen.

Yeah, although I think they had a pretty big "unfrozen" slush fund for that already.

[DaveW]

I'm just glad to see Obama and co not caving into Israel on this one. I am of the opinion that Israel can sometimes be our worst ally.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I'm just glad to see Obama and co not caving into Israel on this one. I am of the opinion that Israel can sometimes be our worst ally.

 

We should have less unqualified support for them for sure, but it's hard to call them the "worst" ally when you look around at some of the countries we're friendly with.

[DaveW]

We should have less unqualified support for them for sure, but it's hard to call them the "worst" ally when you look around at some of the countries we're friendly with.

Sometimes our worst "major" ally, perhaps?

Letting netanyahu address congress was an embarrassment and now that blowhard is spewing more garbage about the agreement.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Sometimes our worst "major" ally, perhaps?
Letting netanyahu address congress was an embarrassment and now that blowhard is spewing more garbage about the agreement.

 

I agree that shouldn't have happened, but I would suggest that the anger in Israel about this is at least justified.  I think most Americans have no concept what it would be like to be Israel - we struggle with terrorism and other threats that pale in comparison to what Israel is literally surrounded with.

 

I wish Israel would show more good faith in diplomatic efforts, they have a lot of room to do that, but too often they are held to a ridiculous expectation that no other nation is held to about their own security.

[twinsnorth49]

Yeah, they could be less obstinate, as well as less pro-active and ruthless in their aggression at times, but being surrounded by countries whose end goal it is to obliterate you from the face of the earth is not something I feel qualified to fully understand or appreciate.

[DaveW]

 

Yeah, they could be less obstinate, as well as less pro-active and ruthless in their aggression at times, but being surrounded by countries whose end goal it is to obliterate you from the face of the earth is not something I feel qualified to fully understand or appreciate.

That hate goes both ways though, I don't want to get off topic and turn this into an Israel vs Palestine thing, but their treatment of the Palestinians often times has been deplorable.

[twinsnorth49]

That hate goes both ways though, I don't want to get off topic and turn this into an Israel vs Palestine thing, but their treatment of the Palestinians often times has been deplorable.

Agreed, that's what I was referring to with their obstinacy and over aggression.

[TheLeviathan]

That hate goes both ways though, I don't want to get off topic and turn this into an Israel vs Palestine thing, but their treatment of the Palestinians often times has been deplorable.

No one is an angel, they have and continue to contribute to the problem. Let's just not pretend their contribution weighs equally.

[glunn]

It seems to me that the extremists on both sides want war.  One problem with war against Iran is that it would probably be more costly than Iraq, both financially and in terms of ruining millions of lives.

 

The Israelis and Saudis and their allies want the U.S. to take military action.  There are lots of military options, but they all would cost hundreds of billions of dollars and too many lives.

 

It seems to me that Obama's next move should bring the key players together, first in secret and then in public.  Everyone has something to win that would not hurt anyone else, and they are all spending hundreds of billions of dollars on "defense" to be able to destroy their respective enemies.  Obviously, such a war could not be won -- there would only be degrees of losing.

 

This reminds me of the episode of the original Star Trek where the people with black and white faces exterminated each other.

 

 

To me the Sunnis, Sunnis and Jews are all Old Testament religions and it's irrational for them not to be friends.

[PseudoSABR]

 

No one is an angel, they have and continue to contribute to the problem. Let's just not pretend their contribution weighs equally.

How exactly would you weigh the competing hate?

[Bark's Lounge]

This is a piece I call the "Four Choices".

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

How exactly would you weigh the competing hate?

 

Well, for starters, those nations that have openly admitted publicly that it is their mission to annihilate, massacre, and destroy the Israeli state.  It's been openly declared many times since the foolish decision to plop Israel there that many of their neighbors would love to commit genocide.  (It doesn't take much time on google, for example, to find leading public officials from Iran calling for the extinction of Israel)

 

I would put most of the hate burden right there. 

[Squirrel]

 

Well, for starters, those nations that have openly admitted publicly that it is their mission to annihilate, massacre, and destroy the Israeli state.  It's been openly declared many times since the foolish decision to plop Israel there that many of their neighbors would love to commit genocide.  (It doesn't take much time on google, for example, to find leading public officials from Iran calling for the extinction of Israel)

 

I would put most of the hate burden right there. 

And it's been Israel's mission as well. You don't call their mission of genoicide on Palestine equal in hate? I would. Worse. Because it looks like their mission will be carried out long before any other missions will be.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Can we go back to 1947 and give the Jews Mississippi?

[Craig Arko]

 

Can we go back to 1947 and give the Jews Mississippi?

I was thinking Texas.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I was thinking Texas.

I'm fine with the entirety of the South.

[twinsnorth49]

And it's been Israel's mission as well. You don't call their mission of genoicide on Palestine equal in hate? I would. Worse. Because it looks like their mission will be carried out long before any other missions will be.

Equal in hate to Syria and Iran, probably not. Israel's treatment of Palestinians is deplorable and reprehensible, I'm a strong advocate of an independent Palestinian state but I think Israel's behaviour falls short of genocide in some key areas.

[twinsnorth49]

I'm fine with the entirety of the South.

They can have Quebec, but they have to learn how to make Poutine.

[drjim]

 

Can we go back to 1947 and give the Jews Mississippi?

 

You think the Israel-Palestine conflict is bad?

[TheLeviathan]

 

And it's been Israel's mission as well. You don't call their mission of genoicide on Palestine equal in hate? I would. Worse. Because it looks like their mission will be carried out long before any other missions will be.

 

On what do you base that claim?  I can literally pull quotes from dozens of influential leaders in Iran that explicitly state things like "cutting out the cancerous tumor" or "wiping them off the map".  It is all but the national damn motto in Iran's government.  

 

The thing is, if Israel wanted to kill Palestinians in droves - it could.  Tomorrow.  But they don't.  Have they been reckless with some of their retaliations?  Hell yes.  Have they overreached and been belligerent?  Yes.  But they are also a progressive, westernized society that treats people decently within their borders.

 

Their neighbors?  Not so much.  We're talking about the difference between a nation that allows gay marriage and their neighbors who toss gay people off buildings.  This is not an equal stance of hate and oppression.

 

Do I feel for the Palestinians?  Hell yes.  A bunch of Western beaucrats put them out of a home and started this whole mess.  But Israel anywhere near the threat of hate and violence of Iran?  Or Syria?  Or Hezebollah?

 

No, that's just a gross misunderstanding of the situation.

[drjim]

I have several complaints about Israel, but I'm pretty confident that they would take a Land for Peace deal yesterday if they had any confidence in the Peace part of that equation.

[Shane Wahl]

Cuba and this Iran deal are the two good things to come out of this Administration in terms of foreign policy. Two is a low number, but the record shows Obama 2, W. Bush negative a lot.