Olney: White Sox should trade Sale

[drivlikejehu]

 

Being deliberately difficult doesn't help your cause.  Berrios was dominant last year, but hasn't shown the same level of dominance as he was promoted.  It's fair to question how his stuff (largely considered to be too limited for an ace projection) will play as he advances.

 

Plus fastball, plus curve, solid change and slider, good control, improving command. Sounds like it will play to me. And, I said good #2, not an ace.

 

Maybe you could point out some back of rotation starters with those capabilities?

[blairpaul715]

 Alot of pitchers are good at pitching, some are #1's some are #5's and some are relievers. Now isnt that quite an answer also. Or is it that only Twins prospects in some people opinions are going to be good?

[TheLeviathan]

 

Plus fastball, plus curve, solid change and slider, good control, improving command. Sounds like it will play to me. And, I said good #2, not an ace.

 

Maybe you could point out some back of rotation starters with those capabilities?

 

Who said he was back of the rotation?  Strawmen don't help either.

 

The general consensus among scouts about his stuff is 2/3.  It's fair for someone to ask if your expectations of a "good #2" are exceeding his results.  Maybe you feel like they aren't, but one could make that argument.  You got asked a fair question, a fair answer shouldn't be that difficult.

[blairpaul715]

 

Plus fastball, plus curve, solid change and slider, good control, improving command. Sounds like it will play to me. And, I said good #2, not an ace.

 

Maybe you could point out some back of rotation starters with those capabilities?

Well i am sure if i went thru prospect books , i could find many who had these qualities(and i dont think Berrios' scouting report says he has a plus curveball), who didnt make it..........as i have stated before, I would love to be wrong, and would love to see him as a 1 or 2, but I will be happy if he is a 3.............I just dont see the dominance it takes to be anything more than a 3 IMO

[drivlikejehu]

 

Who said he was back of the rotation?  Strawmen don't help either.

 

The general consensus among scouts about his stuff is 2/3.  It's fair for someone to ask if your expectations of a "good #2" are exceeding his results.  Maybe you feel like they aren't, but one could make that argument.  You got asked a fair question, a fair answer shouldn't be that difficult.

 

I still don't understand the question. You mean his AA results? I think they line up great with #2 starter potential. He's the second youngest qualified pitcher in the Southern League and performing very well. His numbers are solid across the board... a young pitcher with high quality stuff, no major weaknesses, and by all accounts a good work ethic.

 

If that's a maximum #3 starter, then the term is being used incorrectly.

[blairpaul715]

Sorry somewhere we got off topic, maybe my fault

[blairpaul715]

 

 

I still don't understand the question. You mean his AA results? I think they line up great with #2 starter potential. He's the second youngest qualified pitcher in the Southern League and performing very well. His numbers are solid across the board... a young pitcher with high quality stuff, no major weaknesses, and by all accounts a good work ethic.

 

If that's a maximum #3 starter, then the term is being used incorrectly.

You also have to remember , he doesnt have alot of projection left , as do alot of 21 yr olds, he is pretty close to being what he is going to be, again IMO.........if he was a lanky 6'5 kid with his stuff and still had projection, I would put a #1 tag on him.

[drivlikejehu]

 

You also have to remember , he doesnt have alot of projection left , as do alot of 21 yr olds, he is pretty close to being what he is going to be, again IMO.........if he was a lanky 6'5 kid with his stuff and still had projection, I would put a #1 tag on him.

 

He doesn't need projection. He's already better than almost every other pitcher in the minor leagues, save a handful of elite prospects. He just needs to refine his command.

[twinsnorth49]

Mod note.

 

I think there is a Berrios thread in the Minor League forums.

[HitInAPinch]

 

I don't know how much more you can ask for a player than a top 10 and a top 40 (maybe even top 30) prospect.

 

That's an enormous haul. The Sox might be able to get a 100-150 prospect thrown in as well but Sano/Berrios should be able to pry away almost any player in baseball that isn't Mike Trout or Clayton Kershaw.

 

With that said, I don't see why the White Sox would want to trade Chris Sale at all.

Prospect = likelihood.  As in, not yet proven.  I'm sure everyone knows the stories of Eddied Bane, Willie Banks, Joe Benson, Aaron Hicks and [potentially] Byron Buxton.  Why would the White Sox even contemplate the trade of Sales for 2 AA players [sano/Berrios] with no evidence that either could perform at the MLB level?  That boat don't float.

[HitInAPinch]

 

Mod note.

I think there is a Berrios thread in the Minor League forums.

 

THANK YOU!!

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Prospect = likelihood.  As in, not yet proven.  I'm sure everyone knows the stories of Eddied Bane, Willie Banks, Joe Benson, Aaron Hicks and [potentially] Byron Buxton.  Why would the White Sox even contemplate the trade of Sales for 2 AA players [sano/Berrios] with no evidence that either could perform at the MLB level?  That boat don't float.

Yeah, the Sox have no reason to trade Sale at all, my comment was more directed to the point that they'd get much more than Sano/Berrios for him in trade.

 

News flash: the overwhelming majority of MLB franchises don't have a Sano/Berrios to give up in the first place. You can't get more for a player than what a team has in their farm system.

[Mike Sixel]

I have no idea why the Sox would do this, without some kind of utterly insane overpay.

 

As for trading in the division, if you think it is a fair trade, you shouldn't care if it is in the division or not, imo. No way the Twins should do this, they are pretty much the WS right now, they have the same weaknesses, just managed to sequence their singles really well in May.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

As for trading in the division, if you think it is a fair trade, you shouldn't care if it is in the division or not, imo.

I generally agree but I think it gets into tricky ground when you're talking about a blockbuster trade on this scale. While it's beneficial in the short- to mid-term, one should at least consider whether it's a good idea to set up a division rival to be an elite powerhouse for half a decade.

 

But yeah, normally, I don't care about intra-divisional trades.

[Blackjack]

 

  Why would the White Sox even contemplate the trade of Sales for 2 AA players [sano/Berrios] with no evidence that either could perform at the MLB level?  That boat don't float.

 

Baseball writers get read if they write about controversial subjects. No way the White Sox trade Sale now.

[gunnarthor]

 

So you define a #3 starter based on expectations? What does that even mean?

 

 

Well, yeah.  That's what all the prospect evaluating is.  "This guy profiles as an ace," "this guy should be a lead off hitter," "this guy is a lights out closer."  It's all based on expectations of the tools the guy is showing. I think Sickel's article did a pretty good job of explaining that.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Well, yeah.  That's what all the prospect evaluating is.  "This guy profiles as an ace," "this guy should be a lead off hitter," "this guy is a lights out closer."  It's all based on expectations of the tools the guy is showing. I think Sickel's article did a pretty good job of explaining that.

I think this is where words like "ceiling" get sticky. What is Berrios' ceiling? At this point, I wouldn't put a ceiling on the kid. He seems like the type of prospect with the drive and work ethic to routinely beat expectations and become more than any of us expect.

 

Which is why I'm now bullish on the kid.

 

Now, if you want to talk "expectations", I think a #2/3 starter is the most likely outcome... But that's pretty different than "ceiling".

[DaveW]

I'd give them Buxton straight up.

[gunnarthor]

 

I think this is where words like "ceiling" get sticky. What is Berrios' ceiling? At this point, I wouldn't put a ceiling on the kid. He seems like the type of prospect with the drive and work ethic to routinely beat expectations and become more than any of us expect.

 

Which is why I'm now bullish on the kid.

 

Now, if you want to talk "expectations", I think a #2/3 starter is the most likely outcome... But that's pretty different than "ceiling".

Fair enough.  I like Berrios a lot and I think he can become a really solid part of the rotation.  I think over the last few years, we've had so many 8th and 9th starters pitch for us, we forgot how solid real back end starters and #3 starters can be and think every pitching prospect should be an ace.  

 

And Berrios does seem to possess some of the intangibles that generally lead players to exceed their ceilings - durability, command, high baseball IQ and competitiveness.  

[Mike Sixel]

I'd not hesitate to include Berrios in a deal for Sale, not sure what else I'd be willing to include......it would cost so much, I'd probably not do it.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Fair enough.  I like Berrios a lot and I think he can become a really solid part of the rotation.  I think over the last few years, we've had so many 8th and 9th starters pitch for us, we forgot how solid real back end starters and #3 starters can be and think every pitching prospect should be an ace.  

 

And Berrios does seem to possess some of the intangibles that generally lead players to exceed their ceilings - durability, command, high baseball IQ and competitiveness.  

Yeah, calling Berrios a likely #2/3 is not an insult to the kid or his potential. That's still a very good, very valuable player.

[tobi0040]

I agree that it would take more than Sano and Berrios.

[Pardon My Dinger]

Sale's mechanics are ghastly. His elbow is a ticking timebomb. I wouldn't touch him--not for what the chisox would demand back in a trade, anyhow.