2016 Election Thread

[Hrbowski]

 

Well that's just false.

 

Cruz is absolutely not a libertarian.  You clearly don't understand what that means.

Oh yeah? A libertarian is someone who supports civil liberty, the only way Paul is more libertarian is his stance on marijuana.

[PseudoSABR]

 

All they want is less freedom and more wars, just like Clinton and Obama.

Both Clinton and Obama are more hawkish than their liberal base, which is dismaying to many.   Though it's also fair to say neither would go as far as carpet bombing, terrorist family killing, or ground troops to fight ISIS. 

 

These candidates (beyond Paul) refuse to grasp that ISIS (or their eventual iteration after obliterate them) can exist without territory or religious legitimacy.    We cannot WAR the problem away.

[Hrbowski]

 

Both Clinton and Obama are more hawkish than their liberal base, which is dismaying to many.   Though it's also fair to say neither would go as far as carpet bombing, terrorist family killing, or ground troops to fight ISIS. 

 

These candidates (beyond Paul) refuse to grasp that ISIS (or their eventual iteration after obliterate them) can exist without territory or religious legitimacy.    We cannot WAR the problem away.

Ted Cruz has talked out against getting involved in the Syrian Civil War, going into Iraq etc.

 

http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/12/great_minds_like_a_think_ted_cruz_denounse_christi.html

[PseudoSABR]

Cruz is a mixed bag on libertarianism (which I view as valuing both civil liberties and restrained foreign policy): he's in favor of limiting the scope of NSA data collection, yet wants to carpetbomb (he was merciless in this regard) ISIS regions/cities.  And he only wants to bar some Muslims (not all) from entry (if they come from a specific region that's deemed dangerous).   He also didn't really weigh in on the whether toppling a dictator was good idea or not.   He's basically saying: liberties and protections for me, not for you.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Ted Cruz has talked out against getting involved in the Syrian Civil War, going into Iraq etc.

 

http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/12/great_minds_like_a_think_ted_cruz_denounse_christi.html

I'm not surprised.  But he was an advocate of carpet bombing.  Perhaps that doesn't violate his stance on supporting the one side or the other, but it does demonstrate clear (even reckless) involvement, to the point that his solution (carpet bombing) just begets another class of radicalized people in the region (which Libertarians seem to acknowledge that war sows future terrorism, maybe it's only Paul though.)

[DaveW]

 

 and protections for me, not for you.

But Tiny American flags for all, right?

http://i54.tinypic.com/2ihs2nl.jpg

[DaveW]

 

 

Oh yeah? A libertarian is someone who supports civil liberty, the only way Paul is more libertarian is his stance on marijuana.

That is hardly the only way.

 

Cruz has some libertarian views, I will give you that, but the rest at out of whack with those views. Most importantly, if you polled 100 libertarians, at least 90 would say that Cruz doesn't represent their views, party etc.

[DaveW]

 

 

I'm watching the debate, and Trump did say we should have utilized the trillions spent on toppling dictators, on building bridges, hospitals, etc.  (Fiorina offered: That's what Obama says.)  So there's that.  I wonder if Trump's ego has lead him to start prepping for the general election, and his inevitable lurch to the middle.

 

Trump is clearly a foil, a phony, but what's really dismaying is that his unconstitutional hate rhetoric is jiving with the Republican base.

Trump is just basically the world's most successful troll at this point. I don't "hate" him nearly as much as I hate the people who support his every god damn nonsensical word. I have a hard time believing he actually believes half of the bile he spits out.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Trump is just basically the world's most successful troll at this point. I don't "hate" him nearly as much as I hate the people who support his every god damn nonsensical word. I have a hard time believing he actually believes half of the bile he spits out.

His supporters have some innocence in their own self-interest and belief-in--the-unfairness-special-to-them. That Trump beckons such base desires, which are produced out of a sort of misery, and that he knows he's just telling people what they want to hear  seems like a special kind of evil to me. 

[DaveW]

Watching debate now:

How on earth can people let Cruz and co say blatant lies and call them out on it:

 

"Iran has declared war on us"- Ted Cruz.

 

Ummmmm, no, no they haven't, nor have them come anywhere close to even doing such a thing. I wish these guys would be called out on blatant and dangerous lies like this.

[formerly33]

 

Trump is just basically the world's most successful troll at this point. I don't "hate" him nearly as much as I hate the people who support his every god damn nonsensical word. I have a hard time believing he actually believes half of the bile he spits out.

I just about start spitting out bile too every time I have to hear a speech from his supporters. Those who listen to...er, who knows who...and then tries to say that if you disagree with them you're a dumb sheep following the suave Democratic propaganda.

 

By the way, I just love the way he'll jump to the argument of "You're using that as a last resort" when he can't think of anything better to say. It's so hypocritical in a charmingly agreeable way.

[formerly33]

 

Watching debate now:

How on earth can people let Cruz and co say blatant lies and call them out on it:

 

"Iran has declared war on us"- Ted Cruz.

 

Ummmmm, no, no they haven't, nor have them come anywhere close to even doing such a thing. I wish these guys would be called out on blatant and dangerous lies like this.

 

Or "Obama hasn't done a thing to protect this country."

[DaveW]

 

I just about start spitting out bile too every time I have to hear a speech from his supporters. Those who listen to...er, who knows who...and then tries to say that if you disagree with them you're a dumb sheep following the suave Democratic propaganda.

 

By the way, I just love the way he'll jump to the argument of "You're using that as a last resort" when he can't think of anything better to say. It's so hypocritical in a charmingly agreeable way.

I visited that website "Friends Who Like Trump" and thank rocketpig I only had 4 pop up who "liked" him. (This is what happens when you scrub your "friends" list every year or so)

 

I sorta wonder at this point, why doesn't a low polling candidate like Paul, Kasich or Bush straight up interrupt Trump next time he is spewing BS at a debate and simply say:

 

"Does anyone actually believe this douche bag?"

 

Instant 10 point jump in the polls IMO and hero for the ages.

[TheLeviathan]

I don't understand how Rand Paul doesn't get more respect.  His response to Christie's air space/Russia comments were wonderful and refreshing to hear.  At the very least they need to keep him on that stage to keep some of the jackassery in check.

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Oh yeah? A libertarian is someone who supports civil liberty, the only way Paul is more libertarian is his stance on marijuana.

 

You seem to be stuck on the meta-data thing.  Yes, Cruz took a libertarian angle on that one thing.

 

On every social issue and on foreign policy is he is absolutely not a libertarian.  

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Again show up at caucuses, thats where the entire process happens.

 

Mike, we don't caucus in Indiana.  That said, I have been involved in the parties at the local level, running for delegate a few years back and have shown up in the primaries to vote for Ron Paul.  You're right that people need to show up, but it does no one any good if they show up and vote the lesser of two evils.  They need to show up and show out the Reps and Dems. 

[mikecgrimes]

 

Well that's just false.

 

Cruz is absolutely not a libertarian.  You clearly don't understand what that means.

 

Clearly theres something that bothers you about Cruz, why not point that out rather then create a guessing game as to what the secret ingrideient to your deffinition of libertarian is.  I support Ted Cruz in large part because I tend to be a libertatian.

[mikecgrimes]

 

Mike, we don't caucus in Indiana.  That said, I have been involved in the parties at the local level, running for delegate a few years back and have shown up in the primaries to vote for Ron Paul.  You're right that people need to show up, but it does no one any good if they show up and vote the lesser of two evils.  They need to show up and show out the Reps and Dems. 

 

If your saying support third parties I would count that as an equivlant to showing up at caucuses/primaries.  I just don't want to hear the term lesser of two evils from people who don't do anything to sway the process.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

I don't understand how Rand Paul doesn't get more respect.  His response to Christie's air space/Russia comments were wonderful and refreshing to hear.  At the very least they need to keep him on that stage to keep some of the jackassery in check.

 

I think that right there summarizes my beef with the Reps.  Rand, much like his dad, is marginalized by a party that wants him there for his bloc/fund raising abilities but wants absolutely nothing to do with his message.  Rand hasn't helped himself there.  Endorsing Romney 3+ years ago cost him a lot of good will with the base that his dad built. 

 

But let's be clear.  The Republican party claims to embrace Libertarian ideals, but when it comes to action, they show over and over again that they want nothing to do with it.  I'm not nearly the Rand supporter than what I was his dad (though if I was forced to vote Rep, Rand would be my choice), but I know following his dad's campaign closely that the Republican party was clearly out to ensure that he never got the nomination, which is a tactic Republicans have been doing for years.  It's also why there are so many upset and repressed factions (so to speak) within the Republican party, and it's why Trump is probably going to steal the show. 

[diehardtwinsfan]

Cruz is not a libertarian.  The fact that he had even suggested carpet bombing Syria should be all the proof you need.  Gary Johnson is a Libertarian.  Ron Paul is a Libertarian.  Ted Cruz is another neocon pretending to be a Libertarian to hopefully steal a few votes. 

[mikecgrimes]

 

Cruz is not a libertarian.  The fact that he had even suggested carpet bombing Syria should be all the proof you need.  Gary Johnson is a Libertarian.  Ron Paul is a Libertarian.  Ted Cruz is another neocon pretending to be a Libertarian to hopefully steal a few votes. 

 

Libertarians go both ways on national security issues.  He's not your kind of libertarian but he is a libertarian.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Clearly theres something that bothers you about Cruz, why not point that out rather then create a guessing game as to what the secret ingrideient to your deffinition of libertarian is.  I support Ted Cruz in large part because I tend to be a libertatian.

 

Then you aren't a libertarian either.  This is a term that has been co-opted by Republicans (largely because it has the word "liberty" in it) so that they can try and swing voters.  But they completely misunderstand it.  

 

Libertarians believe in this.  So his opposition to gay marriage is as un-libertarian as humanly possible.  As is his abortion stance.  Carpet bombing another country is being a neo-con.  Opposes drug legalization.  He co-sponsered reauthorizing the Patriot Act.  

 

Just because he's posing as a libertarian in some ways to get Paul's voting base, doesn't make him a libertarian.  He's a neo-con who has done a few libertarian things here and there, that's it.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Libertarians go both ways on national security issues.  He's not your kind of libertarian but he is a libertarian.

 

There is no "your kind" of libertarian.  Libertarians want less government.  Proposing to carpet bomb ISIS and all his other middle east policies is more like Bush/Cheney and Obama/Hillary than it is libertarian. 

 

Jesus, is this what conservatives think being a libertarian is?  Are so many of us going to have to retreat to some other definition or group so as not to associate with Gomer and whatever invented definition you and other neo-cons want to use?

 

Ugh.  Just....ugh.

[mikecgrimes]

 

Then you aren't a libertarian either.  This is a term that has been co-opted by Republicans (largely because it has the word "liberty" in it) so that they can try and swing voters.  But they completely misunderstand it.  

 

 

Oh I see.  I guess since I've voted Republican once I'm not a libertarian and am just not smart enough to get it.  Let me repeat I am a libertarian.

[mikecgrimes]

 

 

There is no "your kind" of libertarian.  Libertarians want less government.  Proposing to carpet bomb ISIS and all his other middle east policies is more like Bush/Cheney and Obama/Hillary than it is libertarian. 

 

Jesus, is this what conservatives think being a libertarian is?  Are so many of us going to have to retreat to some other definition or group so as not to associate with Gomer and whatever invented definition you and other neo-cons want to use?

 

Ugh.  Just....ugh.

 

So do you also not want roads?  Goverment does do some things libertarians do agree on that.  It's a matter of what we think we have to do to keep ourselves safe.  A militia isn't going to stop ISIS, individuals with guns for the most part will not stop ISIS. The exact military stratigy is up for debate but don't give me this I or Cruz aren't a libertarian because we care about keeping Americans safe.  The term libertarian was hijacked by the pro drug and anti military crowd after 9-11 but the terms meaning never changed.  I wish we could have no governemnt but we have to settle for limited governerment because we have to have commen sense.

 

I laugh when people take all the things that can go either way about being a libertarian as the main principals of being a libertarian.  Am I also not a libertarian because I prefer we build some 4 lane roads as opposed to just 2 lane roads?

[Craig Arko]

I'm a lumberjack.

 

And that's okay.

[Mike Sixel]

I think arguing over who is a libertarian or republican or democrat is silly. These are scales....everyone has tendencies up and down the scales. Sometimes those seem inconsistent, but that doesn't mean they are.

 

Some people are more into freedom than others....but that doesn't mean the others don't generally want more freedom. I don't agree with a lot of what mikegrimes posts here, but I agree that even many of us that lean libertarian see a role for government. It is a matter of degree.

 

That said, if you think government should stop gays from marrying, drugs from being legal, Sunday sales of certain items being illegal.....etc.......you probably aren't very far into the libertarian side of the scale, imo. Libertarians generally think if two adults want to do something that doesn't hurt someone else, they should be allowed to do so. I don't see anyone on the stage right now that really believes that, except maybe Paul. Maybe.

[TheLeviathan]

I laugh when people take all the things that can go either way about being a libertarian as the main principals of being a libertarian. Am I also not a libertarian because I prefer we build some 4 lane roads as opposed to just 2 lane roads?

Libertarian has always meant socially liberal and fiscally conservative as a rough approximation. Those are the main principles. If you are a social conservative you are not a libertarian. You are injecting government into individual choices. There is nothing more anti-libertarian.

 

It has nothing to do with being anti-military, it has to do with abusing the function of the military. It's also about holding the military accountable for spending rather than constantly ramping up spending.

 

What you are is a fiscally conservative, socially conservative hawk. That ain't libertarian and neither is Gomer.

[TheLeviathan]

What's ironic is hearing you stretch the definition of libertarian to absurdity while also whining about Trump calling himself Republican.

[DaveW]

 

I don't understand how Rand Paul doesn't get more respect.  His response to Christie's air space/Russia comments were wonderful and refreshing to hear.  At the very least they need to keep him on that stage to keep some of the jackassery in check.

I like a lot of the points he brings up, and if I had a gun to my head and had to vote Repub he would be my clear #1 choice. However I see why people don't respond to him well nationally/overall, he doesn't have the charisma needed and can come off a bit "weaselly" and a little pompus.