So at what point does Molly/TR realize that Escobar and his sub .600 ops has no business in the DH/LF spot?

[DaveW]

 

 

Arcia is still hitless in four games at Rochester. If this keeps up for a few more days, I have to believe Vargas will pass him in the pecking order.

I don't care what the exact pecking order is, I know for a fact that one of Vargas, Pinto or Arcia would instantly be an upgrade today over Escobar at DH. The Twins whether they like it or not are in a playoff/divisional race, they need to be doing everything they can at the major league level to keep winning games.

[DaveW]

 

 

At AAA?, why? It's not like it's his first rodeo down there. I just question what there is for him to prove down there and how it's going to help him against big league pitching. 

It actually is his first rodeo at AAA.....but that is besides the point

[Mike Sixel]

And if they don't think Pinto is a catcher, might as well call him up and DH him, and get some value out of him.

[drjim]

 

At AAA?, why? It's not like it's his first rodeo down there. I just question what there is for him to prove down there and how it's going to help him against big league pitching. 

 

Actually it is his first rodeo in AAA.

 

I'm sure for starters they would like to see him cut his k rate.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I don't care what the exact pecking order is, I know for a fact that one of Vargas, Pinto or Arcia would instantly be an upgrade today over Escobar at DH. The Twins whether they like it or not are in a playoff/divisional race, they need to be doing everything they can at the major league level to keep winning games.

Pinto has been in a rut lately and as long as he's still catching regularly in Rochester, I'm okay with that... Provided the Twins believe he can become a competent catcher at the MLB level and continues to show improvement, which is something we can't see in a stat line.

 

I don't get the Vargas/Arcia thing. I just don't.

[twinsnorth49]

 

Actually it is his first rodeo in AAA.

 

I'm sure for starters they would like to see him cut his k rate.

I meant in the minors, my bad. I just don't think even if he cuts his K rate there it's necessarily going to mean much with the Twins.

[Craig Arko]

You know what's going to happen. Vargas is called up and lays an egg, Santana is sent down and absolutely rakes.

 

And then we sign Kubel.

[twinsnorth49]

 

It actually is his first rodeo at AAA.....but that is besides the point

See above.

[Willihammer]

Is Arcia healthy yet? The Twins will face a string of RH starters, they could use a LH bat at DH.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I'm sure they want to see more than 10 games.

 

Here is where I start to have a problem.  Is Ryan a reasonable and thoughtful guy?  Absolutely.  But he uses the same handful of phrases as his reasons - "not forcing his way up", "we want to see him do a couple different things", "He's a work in progress" or whatever other buzzword he wants.  And in isolation they are reasonable, the problem comes in when you start to look how the same buzzword/justification is used in different situations.

 

This is when the whole logical structure breaks down and, I feel, that most of what he says publicly is just smart nonsense.  And by that I mean he's not really telling you anything of meaning, but he's making it sound like he is.  It's smart on his part because there is value in him hiding the real reasons.  But please don't tell me what he says on the radio show has much meaning.  What is done is far more significant.  

 

And what is being done right now?  Two guys who are not playing well (for a stretch much longer than 10 games by the way) are being run out there every day.  Sometimes in lieu of a much better player.  (DH)  While the pretense for this is "no one is forcing their way up".  If what Vargas is doing isn't forcing his way up, I'm not sure what he could possibly do.  He's absolutely slaughtering the baseball while we waste the DH spot on a utility guy and our SS flounders.  

 

I like Ryan.  I'm happy with the overall job he's doing.  But the logic on the SS/DH/LF roster decisions is absolutely mind boggling and his placating answers on a radio show don't fix that.  

[Blackjack]

 

"Santana's progress".... is that code for "Santana is not that good yet we still run him out there"?

 

I should have clarified, he was talking about Ervin 'Roid' Santana and his second spring training progress.

 

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

 

Is Arcia healthy yet? The Twins will face a string of RH starters, they could use a LH bat at DH.

hard to say - Rochester has been rained out several games in a row - no at bats to be had for Pinto, Arcia, or Vargas to see if they are ready to return.

[DaveW]

 

See above.

I was just bustin ya a bit, I knew what you meant.

[bird]

 

That happens more than you think and perhaps in just isn't necessary to couch every opinion with "but I'm sure they have acceptable reasons", it kind of goes without saying. If I disagree with something TR or Molly decides it's not necessarily inferred that I don't think their reasoning is acceptable, I just have a different viewpoint.

 

Again, if you want to infer that I'm calling TR or Molly's decision to play Escobar where they have "embarrassing" go right ahead, I think you look for things to get bent out of shape about. I think it is embarrassing as a fan to have my team play a guy with an OPS of .588 at the DH spot , I didn't mention TR or Molly in that post, just that by it's very nature it's kind of embarrassing, as a fan.

 

And I didn't call anyone an idiot, another inference by you. I simply disagree with it, nothing more. Is that OK?

 

 

You're right, it's not necessarily inferred that you don't think their reasoning, which you say you don't know, is acceptable to you or not. I apologize. When you used the words "borderline embarrassing", I thought you were talking about Paulie's decision, not a fan's reaction to the possible outcome of that decision.

 

I would take this off-line with you, but seeing as how you moderate these threads, I'll say it here. I don't appreciate being accused of looking for things to get "bent out of shape about", and wouldn't direct such an insult at you. 

 

Also, the inferring regarding the idiocy of the decision is derived from the tone of the posts which describe the decision in no uncertain terms as such, and not from me.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I'm sure for starters they would like to see him cut his k rate.

Vargas's K rate is still below Arcia's career rate.  Equal to Santana's this year.  And actually just a little worse than Escobar's this season (less than 5 K difference over 140 PA).

[bird]

 

They have pretty much given up the last month at the DH spot, putting a guy who is a career 81 OPS+ int he designated HITTER slot is the definition of basically shrugging your shoulders and tossing him in there. If you want to keep Arcia/Vargas/Pinto in AAA purgatory you could at the very least sign a AAAA masher and slot him in for a few weeks.

 

 

I disagree. Maybe you think an injured Arcia, a slumping Pinto, or an undisciplined Vargas would have performed better than 81 OPS+ over the last three weeks. I guess I might think the same thing. It's reasonable to think that. The AAAA masher idea is also reasonable.

 

And maybe Paulie and gang think otherwise. In any event, no one shrugged their shoulders. No one punted. That's an insulting portrayal. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

Danny Santana this season: .222/.240/.299, .539 OPS

Pedro Florimon, MLB career: .204/.266/.300, .565 OPS

 

Santana's 2015 BB% and K% are worse than Florimon's career marks too.

 

Not saying that I'd rather have Pedro back or any such thing, but if Santana's defense is still a work in progress at SS, he's performing at a sub-Florimon clip right now.

[bird]

 

You don't like the word? what word would you use to describe hitting a bad hitting utility infielder at DH?

 

Ignore the one word in the post, and discuss the actual topic, should a utility infielder be starting in LF and DH, or not? Did they or did they not do the same thing in the mid-2000s? How has Escobar forced his way onto the roster, and not Vargas, or Sano, or Hicks, or Pinto, or almost anyone else?

 

Try discussing the actual meat of the post, and not obsessing over a word you don't like.

 

 

 

You used the word exactly how you meant to use it, mike. I disagree with you on that basis, not on your word usage. I think you intend to portray the FO as having simply shrugged their shoulders and thrown their hands up in the air, and I call bull to that.

 

I'm not defending the decision. I don't like it either. I'd have called up Vargas.

 

I also don't pretend to grasp their thinking. My guess is Paulie is perhaps overly enamored with some things about Escobar's game, maybe his versatility, or who knows, maybe his likeability. Likewise, Vargas may have forced his way into Paulie's doghouse, who knows?

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

And maybe Paulie and gang think otherwise. In any event, no one shrugged their shoulders. No one punted. That's an insulting portrayal. 

"Punt" really doesn't mean to give up.  Even football teams don't really give up when they punt.

 

punt: to equivocate or delay.

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/punt

 

I'd say the Twins are definitely equivocating or delaying at the DH spot right now.

[Otto von Ballpark]

For the record, Nick Punto never started a game at DH in his MLB career.   He also only started 3 games in the OF (1 CF start in each season from 2004-2006).

 

Which makes the Escobar plan even more bizarre.  It's like they decided in advance to give him prime Punto-like playing time, but 2B and 3B are locked down (a rare situation when Punto played here) and SS is reserved for grooming a younger guy who had a big year last year (also a rare situation in Punto's time).

[DaveW]

 

For the record, Nick Punto never started a game at DH in his MLB career.   He also only started 3 games in the OF (1 CF start in each season from 2004-2006).

 

Which makes the Escobar plan even more bizarre.  It's like they decided in advance to give him prime Punto-like playing time, but 2B and 3B are locked down (a rare situation when Punto played here) and SS is reserved for grooming a younger guy who had a big year last year (also a rare situation in Punto's time).

I wish Gardy would have put Punto in the 4 hole and DH just ONCE to see how BYTO would have instantly blown up and ended the internet as we know it.

[bird]

 

"Punt" really doesn't mean to give up.  Even football teams don't really give up when they punt.

 

punt: to equivocate or delay.

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/punt

 

I'd say the Twins are definitely equivocating or delaying at the DH spot right now.

 

 

Is Paulie delivering a lineup card to the home plate umpire with the DH spot in the batting order crossed out?

 

Yeah, I know, throwing Esco's name in there is the same thing.

[DaveW]

 

 That's an insulting portrayal. 

It's actually not an insulting portrayal, an insulting portrayal would be to imply that they do care about the DH production currently and continue to play Escobar there out of incompetence. I'm not sure why we need to hijack this topic/thread over the use of the word punt, because it somehow places some blame of the situation on Molitor and TR. Which is bizzarre because TR and Molitor are the two guys that actively are choosing to run out Escobar at DH (which is a terrible baseball decision that anyone can see)

 

Now, that boils down to two options:

1. They are "punting" the DH "best or better" option in the recent past, present and near future (hopefully not for two long)

2. They for some reason think that Escobar is a better DH option then Arcia, Pinto, Vargas, AAAA player off waivers, Rosario, etc.

 

I'm going with 1 since I think TR and Molitor both know what they are doing, if it was #2 I would be advocating for them both to be fired.

[twinsnorth49]

 

You're right, it's not necessarily inferred that you don't think their reasoning, which you say you don't know, is acceptable to you or not. I apologize. When you used the words "borderline embarrassing", I thought you were talking about Paulie's decision, not a fan's reaction to the possible outcome of that decision.

 

I would take this off-line with you, but seeing as how you moderate these threads, I'll say it here. I don't appreciate being accused of looking for things to get "bent out of shape about", and wouldn't direct such an insult at you. 

 

Also, the inferring regarding the idiocy of the decision is derived from the tone of the posts which describe the decision in no uncertain terms as such, and not from me.

Fair enough, I'll retract that.

 

I disagree on the tone and I think problems occur when we try to interpret tone. I don't think either of  them are idiots, the decision just makes little sense to me, that's all.  If that means I think they're idiots, it's false. I respect both of them, just disagree with them sometimes.

 

To get back to the  actual discussion and not word play, I don't agree with playing Escobar at DH and carrying 13 pitchers when there are what I believe to be more suitable candidates available.   And yes, I can hear the snickers all the way from Boston when our .588 OPS, utility infielder steps up as our DH........it bugs me.

[DaveW]

Good news! Escobar isn't DH today!

Bad news! He is at 3B, with Nunez DH and Santana at SS.

 

[Mike Sixel]

ugh. But hey, they have 14 pitchers.....so yay!

[Willihammer]

ugh. But hey, they have 14 pitchers.....so yay!

Well they are playing a doubleheader and won't have an off day for over a week.

 

I really don't mind carrying a bunch of pitchers. One backup IF and one backup OF (and another for catcher) seems fine since we will want most everyone playing everyday. I only wish that everyone included Arcia/Vargas instead of Santana/Escobar (take your pick).

[Squirrel]

 

Good news! Escobar isn't DH today!

Bad news! He is at 3B, with Nunez DH and Santana at SS.

Umm … a little premature … the lineups for the 2nd game hasn't been released yet … sigh … 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I wish Gardy would have put Punto in the 4 hole and DH just ONCE to see how BYTO would have instantly blown up and ended the internet as we know it.

On that note, Punto also never started a game in the #5 OR #6 spots in the lineup for the Twins.  (And only very rarely started in the #7 spot, I think 5 times in his whole Twins career.)

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Is Paulie delivering a lineup card to the home plate umpire with the DH spot in the batting order crossed out?

That's not how one would logically "punt" the DH spot.  It means to just put a guy there from your current roster even though it accomplishes little.  They are delaying actually addressing the position.

 

Now, this happens all the time in baseball, and I'm sure they think this delay is for a good reason (get Vargas some AAA at-bats) although I'm not sure how good the reason is when it seems clear that getting everyday AB for Escobar and Santana (and Nunez some AB too) is a benefit they were seeking (starting all three of them over Vargas at DH even before Kennys was sent down), as well as having 13 pitchers and theoretical positional flexibility (even though Escobar's is mostly wasted right now, and Nunez's is completely wasted).