Alex Rodriguez 2000 RBI and 3000 Hit Watch

[Hrbowski]

People might hate me for this, but it will likely happen very soon, and I'm kind of looking forward to it, strange as it might seem, but I think it will be interesting.

[Sam Morley]

I'm with you. I've got not beef with A-Rod.

 

[Bark's Lounge]

I am supportive that you guys, Hrbowski & Sam Morley, are looking forward to A-Rod's milestone accomplishments. They are heady and very big milestones indeed. But, let's not fool ourselves, A-Rod will never get the HOF call.

 

Imagine you were one of the favorites running in the Boston Marathon, and one of your highly rated competitors, we'll call him Hotbox McGee, was on equal footing with you. The starting gun is sounded and off you go.

 

You are off to a fantastic start and you have a considerable lead. In the meantime, Hotbox McGee, sneaks off the route and takes a taxi cab 20 miles towards the end of the marathon route. He gets to his preferred destination, smokes a few cigarettes, has a beer or two, hits on a couple young ladies, etc, etc.

 

McGee has it timed out, he knows what the time frame is for a runner to win the Boston Marathon. When you are about .5 miles from where he is, he gets on his way, eventually winning the Boston Marathon and beating you by 1 minute or whatever.

 

If what Hotbox McGee did is acceptable to you, that's your call.

 

But, Hot Box McGee is plain and simply a blatant cheat.

 

Alex Rodriguez is the Hotbox McGee of Major League Baseball.

[Thrylos]

Sure. Hank Aaron is a cheat too.  Willie Mays, as well.   They did not take the taxi ('rhoids,) but they took the bus (greenies.) 

 

Kick them all out or speak evil of nobody.

[Bark's Lounge]

 

Sure. Hank Aaron is a cheat too.  Willie Mays, as well.   They did not take the taxi ('rhoids,) but they took the bus (greenies.) 

 

Kick them all out or speak evil of nobody.

Biological and medicinal technology has advanced 2,000% since 40-60 years ago. If that is true, those guys took a pill that was probably weaker than a can of Coca Cola you can pick up at your local quick stop in 2015.

 

That's all.

[Kwak]

MLB did turn a blind-eye towards steroids et al.  But, I am convinced that there was more than just "ignoring" the situation.  I think that there was a tacit encouragement considering the trumpeting of the accomplishments of some of the players.  However, there was a change--a crackdown--and A-Rod definitely placed himself above the attitude (and actual rule change) concerning the use of certain drugs. His punishment was warranted.

[Pius Jefferson]

It's one thing not care but the milestone numbers are fraudulent. It's more likely he's used PED's at least since the minor leagues than it his he started after going to the Rangers.

[drjim]

They should bring steroids back. Less injuries, quicker recovery time, longer careers, the best players playing more games for longer.

[spinowner]

 

They should bring steroids back. Less injuries, quicker recovery time, longer careers, the best players playing more games for longer.

Excellent use of sarcasm!

[nicksaviking]

I used to love the milestone chases. This one does nothing for me.

[Hrbowski]

Rodriguez needs 8 hits to get #3000, and 2 RBI to get #2000.

[tobi0040]

 

I used to love the milestone chases. This one does nothing for me.

 

Could not care less as well.

[Loosey]

@Bark's Lounge that seems to be bit of an extreme exaggeration of how much of an advantage steroids give someone.  Yes, Steroids give you an advantage in strength/recovery time and probably swing speed. 

 

That being said using your comparison of cheating would let me win the Boston Marathon if I took a cab for 20+ miles.  On the flip side if I took steroids and stepped into a batters box against a major league pitcher I would not become a great major league baseball player.  I would still be an average guy that just happens to be stronger than I would normally be but not a better baseball player.  But I get what you're trying to do.

 

The thing that bothers me about steroids in baseball is we will never know how good guys like A-Rod, Bonds, McGwire, etc would have been without them.  Would they have hit 20 less home runs or 200 less home runs in their careers?  We will never know now.  That's what sucks and that is why they won't get into the hall because it is cheating and we don't know how much or how little helped them, but the gatekeepers to the HOF will err on the side that it helped them hit 200 more.

[tobi0040]

 

@Bark's Lounge that seems to be bit of an extreme exaggeration of how much of an advantage steroids give someone.  Yes, Steroids give you an advantage in strength/recovery time and probably swing speed. 

 

That being said using your comparison of cheating would let me win the Boston Marathon if I took a cab for 20+ miles.  On the flip side if I took steroids and stepped into a batters box against a major league pitcher I would not become a great major league baseball player.  I would still be an average guy that just happens to be stronger than I would normally be but not a better baseball player.  But I get what you're trying to do.

 

The thing that bothers me about steroids in baseball is we will never know how good guys like A-Rod, Bonds, McGwire, etc would have been without them.  Would they have hit 20 less home runs or 200 less home runs in their careers?  We will never know now.  That's what sucks and that is why they won't get into the hall because it is cheating and we don't know how much or how little helped them, but the gatekeepers to the HOF will err on the side that it helped them hit 200 more.

 

From my point of view the rub is that guys that cheated took the roster spots, careers, and earnings away from people that played the game straight up.

 

[gocgo]

In related news, he recently surpassed 400 injections....yawn.

[Loosey]

 

From my point of view the rub is that guys that cheated took the roster spots, careers, and earnings away from people that played the game straight up.

Yeah, that part I agree on as well for fringe/non-star players.  One example I can think of in Juan Rincon.  I was speaking more about the guys who would have been there without them either way.  A-Rod, etc.

[Dman]

 

@Bark's Lounge that seems to be bit of an extreme exaggeration of how much of an advantage steroids give someone.  Yes, Steroids give you an advantage in strength/recovery time and probably swing speed. 

 

That being said using your comparison of cheating would let me win the Boston Marathon if I took a cab for 20+ miles.  On the flip side if I took steroids and stepped into a batters box against a major league pitcher I would not become a great major league baseball player.  I would still be an average guy that just happens to be stronger than I would normally be but not a better baseball player.  But I get what you're trying to do.

 

The thing that bothers me about steroids in baseball is we will never know how good guys like A-Rod, Bonds, McGwire, etc would have been without them.  Would they have hit 20 less home runs or 200 less home runs in their careers?  We will never know now.  That's what sucks and that is why they won't get into the hall because it is cheating and we don't know how much or how little helped them, but the gatekeepers to the HOF will err on the side that it helped them hit 200 more.

 

I think by extrapolation the answer is out there.  I don't see anybody chasing 70 HR's.  With Steroids out of the game it appears stats are more in line with what they once were. 

[scottz]

 

They should bring steroids back. Less injuries, quicker recovery time, longer careers, the best players playing more games for longer.

I'd be in favor of league-approved injury-recovery steroid use for anyone on the DL, if such drugs were prescribed/administered by medical professionals. The flip side of this would be that if anyone were "caught" taking such drugs outside of whatever the league approved medical recovery duration/policy was, then they would banned for a good long time. Say 5 years for first offense, lifetime ban for second. 

 

Regarding A-Rod's milestone's specifically, those are big numbers and are impressive in quantity, but I'll always consider their shine to be a bit dulled, simply because of what we know of both him and his generation of ballplayers. For me, his numbers will be viewed the same way that I view McGwire's, Bonds', Palmeiro's, and many others. Big numbers though.

[Sam Morley]

I think we need to find a more balanced approach to the issue of steroids/PEDs past and present in baseball. I think that for the present, it's good that it is very clearly against the rules. This makes it clear that it is "cheating" to use them. I think aside from the rule, it gets much more complicated to make a strong case that it is cheating. My line of reasoning here is something like: If a player takes something that will lead to improvement in his performance and the something he takes has very serious associated short or long term health risks, it is cheating. I think both of these contingencies have to be in place. Players should not have to confront the choice of taking any dangerous substances in order to compete. That being stated, I think the issue is still very grey. If it is health we are concerned with, then surely we are hypocrites. The very act of playing the game is certainly detrimental to short term health, and often detrimental to long term health. In studies on longevity, stress is the number one antagonist. I think the grind and pressure of a major league baseball season is responsible for extraordinary stress. I do not guess that fans are concerned with the long term health of professional athletes. I know that the leagues are not. If then we are to separate health concerns from the matter of taking something in order to elevate performance, it seems reasonable to challenge what be the difference between taking something and taking any other sort of action that might elevate performance, such as lifting weights or adhering to specific diets? No matter, the public and the league, have decided it is cheating and there is a rule now, so it is cheating. I wish there was more clarity about the list of banned substances. I think that with each banned substance there should be a very clear and thorough explanation for why that substance is on the list. I think that health risk should be the sole determining factor for why a substance is on the list. I think the lists should be categorized into substances intended obviously for performance enhancement and substances intended for injury recovery (surely there would be crossover). I think it would be a terrible mistake to shut the door on scientific advancements in synthetic substances that might safely yield faster recovery periods and longer careers. I think that the careers of Bonds, Rodriguez, and others of the 'steroid era' should be looked upon in awe. PEDs aside, they are in the company of the greatest ever, but in addition they showed us what could be accomplished with the combination of chemistry and very dedicated training. I think, in part, sports are about pushing the boundaries of human ability. In this case, it is within the context of baseball. Here is what a human can do under these conditions. Baseball has been played for a long time, and its standards are firmly established. For some athletes, the choice to take a PED would be about keeping his career alive, or getting his career going, or reaching a monetary incentive. For me, these athletes are entirely empathetic and quickly forgiven. In the case of a Barry bonds, or Alex Rodriguez, something else is at stake. I think these athletes are chasing perfection in their chosen discipline. I think they are craftsmen and artists. I think they would do anything to push the limits of accomplishment. And I don't really even mean the numbers (although in baseball the numbers are meaningful and have iconic and almost aesthetic value) but I mean the feeling of driving a ball over the fence, and pursuing that feeling and that moment until someone wrenches the bat from your hands. I can't blame them for that. On the contrary, I admire them for it. As for the present state of the league and its handling of PEDs, I hope that it begins to take its foot off the gas with its pursuit of offenders. I don't think major leaguers should be tested as constantly as Big Papi suggested he is. I think testing should be focused in the minor leagues as that is where the created advantage is most unfair, with players trying to break into the league. I think the precedent is most effectively set in the minors as well. It should be easier to influence younger players as well as direct them with strict accountability. Today, ARod got his 2000 rbi, and regardless of what people think, history is his. The runs will not come off the books.

[Hrbowski]

I forgot to do an update, but just in case you haven't heard, he got both.

[tobi0040]

I think the steriod era rewarded people that broke the law.  They got the benefits, fame and riches while those that played the game straight up lost their jobs, received less money, or were forgotten.

 

The integrity of the game, the numbers, and a piece of the history was lost along with it.  We will never know how good Bonds, A-Rod, Mcgwire, Sosa, or Clemens were.  We can speculate but we must know when they started cheating and we will never know.  High school teammates of A-Rod's claim he was using steroids back then.  I am not sure we should be celebrating much of anything he has done.

[spinowner]

 

I think the steriod era rewarded people that broke the law.  They got the benefits, fame and riches while those that played the game straight up lost their jobs, received less money, or were forgotten.

 

This is exactly why the players' union should be working hard to establish very strict rules against PED use, stricter than the rules currently in place. The union's primary mission should be to protect the interests of the vast majority of its members who play the game straight.

[tobi0040]

 

This is exactly why the players' union should be working hard to establish very strict rules against PED use, stricter than the rules currently in place. The union's primary mission should be to protect the interests of the vast majority of its members who play the game straight.

 

They should.  But don't count on it.

[Brandon]

Bonds was into his mid 30's when he got on the roids.  so I think we know what he would have done.  I thinkhe should still make the hall of fame.  I think he only did them to one up the ones using steroids.  his crime is being a jerk more than the steroids. 

[tobi0040]

 

Bonds was into his mid 30's when he got on the roids.  so I think we know what he would have done.  I thinkhe should still make the hall of fame.  I think he only did them to one up the ones using steroids.  his crime is being a jerk more than the steroids. 

 

I think it is silly for any of us to say we know when a guy started using steriods. 

 

For example, As a 28 year old he hit 46 HR with an OPS of 1.136 OPS, the 5th highest of his career behind the 2000 to 2004 stretch.

 

If we knew for sure that he started at age 34, then I think he was hall of fame bound as a clean player but not brought up as one of the best hitters ever as he often is today.  He finished with the 4th best OPS ever, but if you backed out the 1.300 and 1.400 type numbers he put up in four of his last 6-7 years that number drops dramatically.

 

 

[drjim]

 

I think it is silly for any of us to say we know when a guy started using steriods. 

 

For example, As a 28 year old he hit 46 HR with an OPS of 1.136 OPS, the 5th highest of his career behind the 2000 to 2004 stretch.

 

If we knew for sure that he started at age 34, then I think he was hall of fame bound as a clean player but not brought up as one of the best hitters ever as he often is today.  He finished with the 4th best OPS ever, but if you backed out the 1.300 and 1.400 type numbers he put up in four of his last 6-7 years that number drops dramatically.

 

Also silly to assume no one uses right now or used before the steroid era.

 

I'm sympathetic to the stealing jobs idea, but that it is some huge injustice against the sport strikes me as being naive to how professional sports have operated for decades.

[tobi0040]

 

Also silly to assume no one uses right now or used before the steroid era.

 

I'm sympathetic to the stealing jobs idea, but that it is some huge injustice against the sport strikes me as being naive to how professional sports have operated for decades.

 

The truth is in the numbers.

 

-27% of all 40 HR seasons came from 1996 to 2001. 

 

The top six seasons ever were between 98 and 2001 (Sosa x 3, Mcgwire x 2, and Bonds). 

 

I ran my own numbers from BR.  There have been 43 seasons of 50 or more HR in a season. 21 of those 43 (49%) were between 1995 and 2006. 

 

Four since 2007, A-Rod who was cheating, Bautista, Davis, and Fielder (none over 54).

 

-HR per game:

•1988-1993: 0.88
•1994-1999: 1.06
•2000-2004: 1.10
•2005-2012: 1.01
•(2008-2012: 0.99)

 

I guarantee people are cheating now.  They get caught a lot.  Bruan, Peralta, etc.  But the numbers tell me it is not as widespread as it was.

 

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1648362-proof-that-the-steroid-era-power-surge-in-baseball-has-been-stopped

 

 

[Brandon]

When bonds hit the 46 HR you mentioned that is at the prime of his career. He also passed the eye test and wasn't bulked up.  he may have been on something but it didn't have the effect as what he took in his mid 30's. 

[tobi0040]

 

When bonds hit the 46 HR you mentioned that is at the prime of his career. He also passed the eye test and wasn't bulked up.  he may have been on something but it didn't have the effect as what he took in his mid 30's. 

 

 

A few years ago, If someone had said that two people are on steriods on HGH right now and you looked around the league, Braun and Peralta would likely not have been among the first 100 guesses based on the eye test.

 

We simply will never know.  We know Bonds took steriods from a period of time and can speculate based on stats,  appearance, geography, and relationships when he started.  But we will never know for sure.

[biggentleben]

Until it's put through as a reason for banishment from the game (and there is a point where it does become that now), PEDs are not a reason to exclude from the HOF.