LA Vikes Fan

This inning is why we need a SS for next season. Can't make that kind of error against a good team. We need a steady defensive SS behind this pitching staff to have any sort of chance.

Did I read on one of these threads that Rooker's OPS over the last bit of time was in the .900 range? I didn't realize he'd shown that improvement. If there's any thought that the improvement is real, he's on the team in 2022. We desperately need a RH OF to play when Kepler (should) sit and to DH. He can't play CF but Kepler and Celestino can...

Wow, Arraez is bad against LH pitching. Those are very ugly numbers. That's why I see he and Donaldson basically sharing 3B and the DH spot against RH pitching, with a RH hitting backup OF taking the Arraez role and DHing against LH pitching.

Couldn't have said it better, Big Dog. Now is the time.

Abolsutely. At worst, we find out that Gordon can't be an everyday SS but he gets some experience at the MLB level playing the position so he can play their on a utility basis if necessary next year. Who knows, maybe we will get lucky and he actually has a chance to play there on a regular basis. If he can, we do not have to to spend money to bring in a free agent SS and we can use that money on pitching. Probably not, but it sure as heck doesn't hurt to try him out now. It's kind of hard to care if we go 10 – 6 for the last 16 games or 6 – 10.

A couple of (I think) safe assumptions - Corey Seager will stay in LA or at least not come to MN, MN will not pay the 15-20m a year necessary to get one of the top FA SS, will lose Simmons, and will pick up an interim guy. With that: C - Garver, Jeffers 1B - Sano 2B - Polanco SS - Galvis or Iglesias 3B - Arraez/Donaldson LF - Kirilloff CF - Buxton RF - Kepler/Refsnyder platoon DH - Donaldson/Arraez I see this as the only way to get all of Arraez, Donaldson, Kirilloff and Sano in the lineup. Sano has hit .252/.333/.542 (.855) the last 30 games and I'd wager that's about what he's done the second half of the season as a whole. He's won a 2022 spot. He's got to play 1B and Kirilloff in LF to get Arraez in the lineup by splitting 3d base and DH with Donaldson. Donaldson is only good for 70-90 games a year in the field so a split there and the DH makes sense. Kepler starts because we (unfortunately) don't have anyone better but he can only play against RH pitching. I'd love to see us get a RH OF FA - Rooker isn't the guy - to be the weak half of the RF platoon, DH against LH pitching with Arraez on the bench, and DH when Donaldson and/or Arraez is on the shelf.

How to spell the right term for a guy like Jax whos is consistently excellent the first time through the order, gets hit hard the second time, and gets absolutely shelled the third time? R-E-L-I-E-F PITCHER . I think Jax has some talent but I also think we've seen enough to know that he isn't a top 5 starter on a winning team. I think the issue is whether he provides more value as the 7th or 8th starter awaiting the call from AAA or whether he could be an effective reliever in a MLB Bullpen. I would love to give him a try in the bullpen this year but with all of the injuries I don't know that we have anyone to take his place if we give him a shot in relief. I'm glad Gordon played SS last night and I think we should keep doing it. I didn't see the game but we need to know if he can hold down that position. If he can't, he's a utility player fighting for the 25th or 26th spot on the 2022 Twins and we go out and get a FA SS in the off season. If he can, then we spend our SS money on pitching. One game isn't enough to know. I'd like to see him start at SS for at least 12 of the last 16 games so we can find out if he's a possible answer.

Interesting idea for which you should be congratulated, but I come out as a "No' because I don't see Torres glove work as good enough for a team with a very young starting pitching staff. Freddy Galvis is a better choice. Juan Igelsias also MIGHT be if his work for the Angels this year is an aberration and he rebounds to be the better SS that he has been in the past. Having said that, the idea of trading Kepler for a shortstop and/or pitching help is a good one but I think you guys are smoking crack as to Kepler's value. If we are being generous, Kepler is a good fielding, below average hitting corner outfielder (waaaaay below average in 2021) with occasional power who can play a decent but not great center field in a pinch for a couple of weeks. In other words, he is a good, solid 4th outfielder on a contending team. If we look at his history, this is all he has ever been other than in 2019 and it is becoming more and more clear that his performance in 2019 was an outlier probably assisted by the juice balls used that year. He is not going to be good enough to get a controllable starting pitcher even as the lead player in a package. He is the 2nd or 3rd player in that package. We are going to have to trade somebody better from the farm system, like a young pitcher, to get that controllable starter. Kepler is nowhere near enough.

Well, the good news is he'll be ready for 2022 even though he's probably done for 2021. Is Gant also done for the year after yesterday? Let's see that leaves us 4-5 innings a game from Ober, 3-4 from Pineda, and .... ??? Wow, we get to see more of Griffin Jax and Charlie Barnes. Maybe even more of Albers. Oh boy, can't wait! This is becoming so pathetic that you just have to laugh. Or cry... Sooo, any chance of starting Strotman, Balazovic or anyone else in these last 17 games? I know, No.

I love this idea. I may do the same. I'm already thinking of betting on Arizona Sunday in their game with the Vikings for the same reason,

I think the on thing that is verifiably true is that Front Office has done much better than the second time around Ryan Front Office. Now, is it good enough to take the Twins to consistently competitive and win a World Series or two? The jury is still out. The positives - pitching pipeline is starting to hit with Ober and hopefully Winder and Balazovic, decent early returns on drafts with Kirilloff, and they made two good prospect trades with the Blue Jays and Rays. The negatives - too many reclamation projects in the bullpen, very poor evaluation of potential veteran starters this year with Happ and Shoemaker, and an inability to re-sign Berrios or as of yet extend Buxton (although ownership may share in that failure). The Ryan group had to go for the Twins to move forward. This group is better. Not sure if it's good enough. To me, the criticism that this FO has not signed a top FA pitcher is simply unfair and ignores the real problems we have in the FA market. We don't get top FA pitchers because we aren't willing to pay the freight and because the players would rather go to the markets where the ancillary money opportunities are better and the weather is better. We didn't sign Berrios because we weren't willing to pay him what he wanted. Someone else will and that is the reality of the FA market. You want a top FA starter? Prices start at 20m - 25m a year for multiple years. You don't want to pay that for a guy who maybe isn't a top 5 or 6 pitcher or a guy who's been hurt in the past because of the risk? Then you don't get anybody. Marcus Stroman next year. $20m plus for at least 3-5 years. And that's before we consider the fact that he could make another $3-$5m in endorsement income if he's personable enough and goes to LA, NY or Chicago and there's lots of places he can go where it isn't snowing in April. The Twins are probably going to have to overpay for a top tier free agent starter. Bottom line, if you're not willing to pay for a Mercedes, get off the lot. You have to pay and then pay again if the first guy stinks or gets hurt if you want to play with the big boys in free agency. We don't do that and that's not on the FO, that's on ownership. Sorry to go on a rant there. I just think we have to judge this FO on what the best (and perhaps only) way for Twins to compete; Drafting and development of our own young players, particularly pitchers. The grade so far is incomplete because they haven't yet had quite enough time. We'll know pretty well by the end of the 2022 season where we stand on the development side. That's when we can judge and that's the criteria to me.

Good to see Moran get a shot before season's end. I hope he can be part of next year's pen.

I agree but was he throwing 91-92 with the Twins? He looked very hittable and frankly, a long way from being able to contribute to a MLB team. He looked very overmatched when he was up before. It would be great if Barnes could help next year. So far it looks like Ober and Ryan (I know, SSS) can really help us next year in the rotation absent injury. We need at least one more internal pitcher and Jax does not look like the answer to that question. Maybe Gant, but his track record as a starter in St. Louis does not inspire confidence. He looks more like a decent reliever.

Celestino might be an answer IF he can hit but he did hit .177/.286.466 in this year's try-out. Refsnyder isn't great, but he's not so bad, but we NEED a RH hitting OF to play some. Better if he can play CF. Kepler can't hit LH pitching, Garlick can't play CF, and the rest of the hopefuls are either LH hitters (Larnach, Contreras), or haven't shown they can hit (Rooker). I wouldn't mind Miranda as an OF to try out his bat. I think Refsnyder and Celestino are in the mix for that 4th OF spot next year.

Not sure why we'd trade Arraez unless we could get some good pitching in return and I just don't think that's in the cards. He's still cheap - pre-arb until 2023 and not a free agent until 2026 - and he can hit for average/OBP. I know he doesn't have a regular position but he can get 50-75 games at 3B for Donaldson, 20 at 2B for Polanco, and another 50 at DH. That's 120-130 games and we can give him more if we're willing to be adventurous in LF or let him back up at 1B. He may be surplus if Miranda comes up and rakes but that hasn't happened yet. Gordon hasn't established that he can hit and he can play in the OF - he's Tortuga's replacement. We have no one to replace Arraez hitting .300 with a .375 OBP. I think he has a spot on this team until one of the young guys displaces him. And that just hasn't come close to happening yet.

Looks like Sano is answering the bell when it comes to the "do I have a spot on the team" competition for next year. Refsnyder, maaaaaybe. Rooker, not so much. You guys think that Kirilloff goes to LF next year so that Sano can play 1B, Donaldson 3B/DH with Arraez doing the same? It's not like Larnach or Rooker has made a case to take the LF job for next year, that's for sure. Refsnyder as 4th OF and we again pray the Kepler will figure out how not to pop the ball up and actually hit .250 with 25 HRs?

Well, forget that idea. Jax gives up a massive 3 run dinger in the first. I know we're evaluating players, but haven't we evaluated Jax enough? He MIGHT have a future in the bull pen. But not in an MLB rotation.

I think Ober is a lock barring injury. both Ryan and Dobnak will be on the roster next year if they preform even competently in September. I think the Twins would like to bring back Pineda and I think he wants to come back, so there's 4. I think, hope and pray the Twins bring in a quality not so old FA to head the group; someone like Marcus Stroman, Kevin Gausman, Jose Quintana, Jon Gray or Robbie Ray. None of them "young", but none of them within a year or two of being done like Greinke or Verlander. I hope we stay away from guys like Andrew Heany, Julio Teheran and Michael Wacha. While I'd like 2 from the first group, or one from the first and then and old head like Greinke or Verlander, I don't think the Twins will pony up the cash for 2 quality starters. History tells us that the most they would get is one of the first group or its equivalent and then an older starter like Alex Wood, Corey Kluber or Alex Cobb. That to me would be a mistake. I think its very important that Ober and Ryan get 25-30 starts next year, and that we give Dobnak enough rope to see if he's the good pitcher from before or the steaming pile he was this year. 12-15 starts maybe? We need to know if there's anything there on those 3 for 2023 and beyond. Then I'd try to get 10-15 starts at the MLB level for guys like WInder, Strotman, and Balazovic. Woods-Richardson too if he's far enough along. At least one or two of those 4 will be injured so there's room. Even if they are all healthy there will be plenty of available starts for them with the inevitable 1-2 months' worth of IL stints for Pineda, ineffectiveness from others, 10 day IL stints with various maladies from guys who start the season in the rotation, a mid-year "shutdown" for Ober and Ryan to avoid burn out, etc. 2022 should be the year we find 3-4 internal starters for 2023-2026. that's the key, not trying to coax a decent year from 34+ year old journeymen or guys whose ceiling is a "No. 5 type starter" (Jax, Thorpe, Smeltzer, Albers).

Ok, who predicted 5 shutout innings from Gant AND that the only run of the game through 5 would be driven in by Andrellton Simmons? If so, get to Vegas. Now.

I agree and Kepler. He is a 4th OF or a left-handed half of a platoon With a younger player breaking in. He does provide defensive value so he’s worth having, but not starting every day, and definitely not batting in one of the first six spots in the order. I think he plays because we don’t really have anybody else given the struggles of Rooker and Larnach Both at the plate and in the field. I would frankly like them to bring up Miranda and give him a shot in the outfield. He has played there some in AAA. The other guy is Mark Contreras, but he is another left-handed hitter. The issue is we just don’t have anyone to replace him right now. We should definitely be looking for an upgrade in the off-season.

Guys, I think you're deluding yourselves on Jax. He doesn’t look like a MLB starter. No out pitch, not enough velocity or command. On the other hand, I could see him as a successful reliever, even a high leverage guy. That’s where he belongs.

Amen, brother. We have to develop our own number one starter. It’s difficult to find one in a trade and we simply aren’t going to be able to/willing to pay the prices for a free agent at that level. The only way you develop a number one starter is to get them on the mound and let them pitch. We learned this year that Ober has a real chance to be a mid rotation guy or better, that Jax isn’t ready and may be a better relief pitcher than starter, and that Charlie Barnes probably doesn’t have enough stuff to make it in the majors. We found that out by pitching them and giving them a chance to succeed or fail. We need to keep doing that for guys like Ryan, Winder, Strotman, Blaze, etc. 2022 is the perfect year to do that in the rotation and, frankly, at a few positions in the field.I would say we went one for three this year on starters, with Ryan still a question mark Since he just got here. And I think that Jax could actually be a quality relief pitcher at the major-league level. That’s about as good as you can expect to do. Let’s get these guys on the mound and see what they have.

I agree on Kepler and Sano. I think we need to recognize what other teams will see them as being. Kepler is a below average hitting, good defensive corner outfielder who can also play centerfield. Perfect 4th outfielder for a good team like the Yankees or Oakland, not a starter. Sano is a boom or bust power hitter with no defensive position that he can competently play. In other words, a DH that hits sixth in the lineup. Those guys, even packaged together, are not going to get us a young controllable starter. They might get us a young shortstop, young relief pitching, or solid prospects. In both cases, I think that’s a trade worth making. Kirilloff replaces Sano, Larnach or Miranda replaces Kepler, or Kirilloff and Larnach play the corner OF spots with Miranda/Arraez at 3B and Donaldson at 1B. Upgrade defensively and at the plate at first base, downgrade defensively in right field but probable upgrade at the plate. Worth doing if we can get young, controllable players or good prospects at positions of need. Most likely result, though, is that they both stay with the Twins for most of their career. We frankly value them higher than the rest of the league does and so they’re likely to stay.

I think this is a very well reasoned article and a solid approach, although I would tweak it in one way. I think the twins really need to go hard For a youngish, front line starter like Marcus Stroman and sign him to a four or five year contract. Sign Buxton on a 5 to 7 year deal. Sign Rogers for three years, $20-$25 million. I would also bring back Pineda on a one year, $6-8 million kind of deal (or2 years if necessary). He will give us 125 solid starter innings so he doesn’t block someone completely. He simply shares one starter spot with a midseason call-up type. The rotation starts out as Stroman, Pineda, Ober, Ryan, and Dobnak. There will be plenty of opportunity for the next group of starters like Strotman, Winder, etc. from IL stints, the inevitable two months off for Pineda, and potential ineffectiveness. The most important thing is to get Ober and Ryan 30 starts so we know if they are solid mid rotation type starters for 2023 or more, or just not ready. Then in the off-season before the 2023 season, sign one more number two or number three starter and you have your contending rotation. In effect, use 2022 to find a minimum of three solid or better starters from the young starters. Frankly, I also agree that we should use this off-season to separate the wheat from the chaff in terms of that on-field core and see if there are good prospects out there for some of the Players who are not likely to be helping us in that next hoped for contention window of 2023-26. The three obvious question marks are Kepler, Sano, and Donaldson, the first two because they just haven’t really panned out the way we hoped and the third because of his age and physical condition. I would at least gauge the trade market for these guys. I think it is unrealistic that they will bring back a controllable starter, but I could see them bringing some high ceiling prospects or a young shortstop. That does leave us with a young batting order that’s likely to have some significant ups and downs so I would see if we can augment it by resigning Nelson Cruz or keeping Donaldson to be that number 4 hitter bulwark. They may not want to do that given the contention window is at least a year away but it’s worth a shot so we have some lineup stability as the group develops. So in short, use 2022 as a development year around a good starter, a good number 4 hitter, and Rogers as the bullpen stalwart. I actually think the talent is good enough for us to win 80-85 games that way, stay in contention for a playoff spot, and give these guys some valuable experience. This should set us up for a 2023-2026 contention window.

I like Nick’s ideas but not adding Kluber, Morton, Cobb, Heany, etc. There’s no real upside there other than hoping to catch a one career year IMHO. I would go all in on the younger guys in the system for next year in a rotation anchored by a top tier guy like Stroman and a re-signed Pineda. I think both Ober and Ryan start next year in the rotation and are given a long leash. Dobnak starts the year in the rotation on a shorter leash and we have the rest of the Strotman/Winder/Blaze/Jax etc. group for depth. We’re not going to have internally developed mid-rotation or better starters for 2023 unless we give guys like Ober and Ryan 30 start next year. Those two look like the best bets right now, and there may be others who show us next year with those two are showing us this year. We cannot develop our own rotation by signing stopgap vets. That’s what you do and you don’t have enough younger options to develop. I do think we have enough younger options. I do recognize that probably means that it will be difficult for us to contend for a playoff spot next year unless the playoffs are expanded. I still see enough there to get us into the 85+ win category, with significant improvement by year end and a good outlook for 2023. And that’s what I see as the best approach; use 2022 as the pitching development year to get us to being a real contender by 2023.