TheLeviathan

True, but a competent defense might make our horrible pitching at least look "bad" rather than "I think I'll watch paint dry instead".

Sure, Tonkin may not be the top of the list, but in order to look at the larger issues/patterns we need to identify the data points that are creating the trend. Tonkin or even Sano, in and of themselves, might just be mistakes, but when all those mistakes are taken as a whole then we can start to formulate opinions about the larger causes. Will we ever know with 100% certainty what the inner workings were? No, but if we're waiting on that kind of certainty we might as well shut this puppy down. Hell, even on what you assert as a fact we can all agree on (the pitching) I could make a pretty valid argument that we can't really judge our pitching all that clearly given the defense we've put behind them this year. Or, at the very least, they are only part of the problem but are receiving full blame. But parsing out those differences and arguing our case one way or the other is what the message board is for. Including developing theories and opinions about what is going on that is leading to so many mistakes.

Um, Nick provided data in his original post. Where's yours? No, you don't have to list every player, but when you're going to cite Michael Cuddyer from almost a decade ago, perhaps you should consider what that says about the strength of your argument.

It looks to me like facts are being used to support opinions. You disagree with one fraction of the opinion (Tonkin) and have chosen to die on that sword here. I'd argue the person you're really talking to about glazing over the forest for the trees is yourself. No one on a message board filled with opinions is going to be able to post anything that will reach universal agreement. There will always be those that feel there were "unnecessary attacks" somewhere in the post. You don't like the point on Tonkin. Ok, state your case with facts that counter the point. I don't think I've seen you do that.

Believe what exactly? If you want to plant your flag in the "Dammit, Tonkin is just plain bad"...fine. Care to explain the other, much bigger bone-headed decisions?

Nick made the argument about pitch total. He's not wrong. And your list is a good way of showing how the exceptions prove the rule. Not to mention your point does nothing to explain away how bad the Twins attempts have been for the last few years.

Which puzzling corollaries would those be? He was made the long man and kept there regardless of performance in that role or past success in various roles. (Granted, in the minors, but that's what he had been groomed to do for many years) Maybe he would've been terrible in more of a one inning role....but how the hell are we going to know when we burned him out throwing more pitches than he was used to in mop up duty?

I refuse to read 5 pages about this. But I have to ask.... Anyone asked around to see what Juan Castro or Lew Ford are up to these days? Can Frankie Rodriguez still hum a fastball up there? At this point I'll take a nostalgia team. At least then I can laugh without feeling bad about myself as a Twins fan.

Gene Wilder was a treasure, I'm sad his career wasn't longer. The man was brilliant.

It's not that Tonkin earned some more prominent role, it's that you thrust him into a role he had never done, that didn't suit his skills, and expected him to succeed at it. You know, like we did with CF the last 6 years. And Sano. And the (what seems like) dozens of infielders we've thrown in the outfield. Oh, and Trevor May. Mayhap I'm missing some more? This team seems to think the failures are the result of something other than their own decision making. They have continued to play guys in ways that don't suit their strengths and marveled that things fell apart.

You're right, there is a lot of hypocrisy on those issues. People would be well served to consider their opinions more carefully because I agree that there are a lot of posters that talk out of both sides of their mouth on things like this. It's an issue I try to comment on very rarely myself. My motto, and i've said it before a few times, is do what's right for the kid. I don't know all the ins and outs of that for each kid so I try not to comment directly on any one action. I will comment on overall trends and things that seem out of place, but there are too many things we don't know because we're not directly working with the players ourselves to go too far expressing those opinions. At the same time, given the magnitude and frequency of the blunders the last few years....is there really surprise at the bitterness? I mean, we finally get a glimpse of a real star talent in Sano and it seems like the organization has done everything short of deliberately physically injuring him to derail a promising start to a career. On the larger scale things are a total mess. Hell, not only is there a bad plan, but there was effusive praise and confidence from the organization that everything was fine and things are rock solid as we were steering directly into an iceberg. Terry Ryan is a nice guy, but every time i heard him say something that sounded like "There are plenty of life rafts" or "We saw that iceberg coming a mile away, no worries!" only made me more bitter. When people care they will feel hurt, betrayed, angry, and bitter. What you really need to watch out for is people not caring. A point Nick deliberately made in his post and is spot on: people are starting to largely not care. I'll take pages and pages of criticism imploring change every day and twice on Sunday because i know those people at least care and they want the rest of the populace to care with them.

Are we allowed to forfeit on the basis of not enough competent pitching? I mean, who would argue that?

Man I hate these faux positive vs. negative discussions. Most of the time they are rooted in someone's own preferences and perceptions and rarely in fact. Are there some here that rip and piss and moan constantly with no redeemable posting traits? Yes, I largely ignore them. Are there some here that do nothing but paint every mistake as a positive and put the team and it's decision makers on undeserved pedestals? Yes, I largely ignore them too. The vast majority of us, and Nick is definitely included, post criticism and praise we feel warranted. And most of us argue/defend those stances fairly. I've disagreed many times with Nick (hell, this whole offseason pretty much) but at no point did I feel his optimism should change because it didn't jive with me. He's entitled to his stance, so long as he is prepared to defend it honestly and fairly. And he does. If I felt at any point this site was intentionally posting fluff and other nonsense in some misguided effort to have a "balance" of positivity and negativity I'd bail in a heartbeat. I want to read honest, thoughtful opinions. When we're 30 some games under 500, I expect most of those opinions to be critical. They should be. If they weren't, I'd start to question the honesty and integrity of the person giving the opinion. This team has earned criticism. I'm hoping this offseason they start finding a way to earn some praise. I'll be watching, listening, and reading everything on this board and I hope the opinions continue to be espoused based on the merit of the opinion, not some token effort to appease the audience.

It's hard to tell how much of it is the manager when we're giving up 10 runs a game.

So, Aaron Hicks still the stud some of you thought? No?

I think they've done perfectly fine with Garver. And that's good, because I like to think this team could find a way to order at Chick-fil-a and wind up with a 5 day old Big Mac at this point.

I imagine the effect is a lot like the one when you win the lottery.

Fun with numbers: That's snepp's first post in........too long.

Good god.

Chris Hermann.....sleeper agent.

Before this season started I repeatedly said that this team, with it's youth, had a real possibility of being much worse than people thought. But never in my wildest dreams did I think that meant we'd see a handful of starts for Albers. Thank god for football.

If nothing else, there were times this seemed like it was laughable to imagine happening. So good for him.

I would like to see a retrial, but that documentary may have tainted the waters so badly everywhere that it's no longer possible. Again, we're talking about a documentary that the initial victim refused to participate in because of their behavior. To me, that says all i need to hear.

We have no one else. That's the response. And we're seeing ample evidence of what his role should be next year - reliever. And hopefully that will free Trevor May from the bondage of stupidity that banished him there.

I know where we can find one! In the bullpen. Where we demoted him in the name of Mike freaking Pelfrey. Maybe the damage is already too heavy, but for god's sake try.