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    Position Battle: 4th & 5th Starters


    Nick Nelson

    The Twins have a firmly established trio of starters in place that they will build around. Barring injuries, you can bet that Ervin Santana, Phil Hughes and Kyle Gibson will all be in the rotation when Minnesota heads to Baltimore to open the season in April.

    Behind them, things are unsettled.

    Image courtesy of Jesse Johnson, USA Today

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    After spending every recent offseason exhaustively searching all avenues for starting pitching help, Terry Ryan and the Twins have refreshingly been able to abstain this winter. Even with Mike Pelfrey departing and no significant additions coming aboard, there will be plenty of quality competition in-house for the final two spots.

    In 2015, the Twins had nine different players make starts, and that was their lowest total in four years. Chances are, every pitcher listed below will get his chance at some point this year, so the composition of the group that goes north only matters so much.

    In some ways, as we'll discuss, the club is actually incentivized not to carry their best talent from the very start of the regular season.

    By all accounts, though, the decision-makers are keeping an open mind about those available rotation spots, which should lead to some heated competition in March. This is undoubtedly by design.

    Let's take a look at the contenders that will be making their cases.

    Why Tommy Milone Will Win A Job

    With his low velocity and middling strikeout rates, Milone doesn't get a ton of love from the sabermetric crowd, but he has been a reliably solid back-of-the-rotation starter and there is value in that.

    The Twins settled with Milone on a $4.5 million salary for this season, and that's not the kind of money you pay for a reliever who has almost no experience pitching out of the bullpen. Be assured, the team is heading into camp with designs on him as a starter, just as they did last spring when the job was his to lose in a competition that included Trevor May, Alex Meyer and Mike Pelfrey.

    That is, no small part, because Milone is the lone left-hander in this entire picture.

    It's not an overriding factor, and if he looks flat-out crummy in camp or is blatantly surpassed by others, I could see Milone heading to the bullpen. But he's as close to a lock as you'll find on this list.

    Why Tyler Duffey Will Win A Job

    He earned it. With the way Duffey responded after being called up to the majors last August, the Twins will be hard-pressed not to put him in the rotation. Following a rough outing in a brutal match-up at Toronto for his MLB debut, Duffey went 5-0 with a 2.25 ERA in his final nine starts, and Minnesota went 8-1 in those games.

    During his introduction to the highest level, the right-hander checked all the boxes. He attacked the strike zone. He pitched deep into games. He missed bats and kept the ball in the park. Duffey deployed his spectacular curveball with deadly effectiveness and out-pitched all of his peers in the rotation.

    There are question marks attached to the 25-year-old hurler, however. Ultimately, 10 starts is still a small sample size and Duffey still has only 17 total starts at Triple-A. As good as he was in the minors last year, his long-term track record isn't quite as impressive, especially when it comes to strikeouts.

    And there is this: Duffey is essentially a two-pitch guy. He threw his fastball or curve 98 percent of the time as a rookie with the Twins. Some can make that work as a starter, but most don't. As Twins Daily community member gopherman23 recently pointed out, the righty's 39.8 percent usage rate with the hook was the highest in the majors since 2002.

    Could the Twins send Duffey back to the minors to work on polishing a third pitch?

    Why Ricky Nolasco Will Win A Job

    The obvious (and perhaps unsatisfactory) answer is that he's being paid $12 million this year and next. Twins officials have made it pretty clear that decisions regarding Nolasco won't be dictated by the money he's owed, but you can bet he will be given every chance to earn it.

    And he deserves that much. I realize that damn near every Twins fan is incredibly down on the veteran righty, understandably so, but the truth is that he has never had a sustained opportunity to show what he can do here while fully healthy. Both of his seasons in Minnesota have been marred by injury. Last year in limited duty he put up a 3.51 FIP and struck out 35 batters in 37 innings, so there is something to build on there.

    Compared to others on this list, Nolasco simply has no case based on his accomplishments with this team. He has an uphill battle in that regard, but I do think that if he's sharp in spring training the Twins will be inclined to jump him ahead in line because he can't be sent to the minors and he offers little in the bullpen other than long relief.

    And, yeah, they're paying him quite a bit of money to start games.

    Why Jose Berrios Will Win A Job

    He may very well be the most talented pitcher on this list, and the only one with true "ace" potential. Berrios obliterated the highest levels of the minors last year and was in position for a late-season call-up, though the Twins ultimately decided to pass.

    There is almost zero question that he is ready to pitch in the majors. His supremacy over Triple-A hitters in July and August left little doubt. But by starting him back in Rochester and waiting even a few weeks to call him up, the Twins stand to push back his free agency clock and gain a full extra year of team control down the line. Given that Berrios will be 27 – the midst of his theoretical prime – in six years, that extra season could be extremely valuable.

    Of course, this all becomes somewhat moot if the Twins lock him up with a contract extension at some point. And while there is a reasonable and logical argument against bringing him north regardless of how he performs, if he truly transcends the competition it's going to be a hard sell sending him back to a level that he has already mastered.

    Berrios, and the decisions surrounding him, will easily be among the most compelling storylines to follow this spring.

    Why Trevor May Will Win A Job

    He is as qualified as anybody. May was a good prospect as a starting pitcher rising through the minors and broke through last year with a strong first-half performance in the Twins rotation before circumstances forced him to the bullpen.

    Circumstances, unfortunately, continue to work against the young right-hander. His performance after shifting to relief was so impressive that it evidently convinced the Twins to bypass the relief market this offseason while viewing May as one of their core pieces at the back end of the bullpen.

    That means May's chances of winning a starting job, or even being a legit contender for one, are low. It would likely take injuries to more than one other guy on this list for the Twins to rearrange their plans so dramatically. They simply need May in the late innings.

    Others In The Mix: Taylor Rogers, Pat Dean, Alex Meyer

    With the five pitchers above vying for two spots, there isn't much of an opening for these fringe outsiders.

    Rogers and Dean were both added to the 40-man roster after impressive campaigns at Rochester last year, and they gain some extra points for being lefties. Meyer was ranked as one of the organization's best pitching prospects as recently as a year ago, but there have always been serious questions about his ability to remain a starter and his trainwreck 2015 season may have been the final straw pushing him to a reliever designation.

    All in all, though, the Twins have more quality starting pitching depth in place than they've had in at least half a decade. They really need one or two guys to step up and take over at the front of the rotation, but it's hugely refreshing to see such a wide array of hurlers in the mix with no Mike Pelfrey or Kevin Correia types clogging things up.

    More help is on the way, too, in the form of rising young arms like Stephen Gonsalves, Kohl Stewart and Tyler Jay.

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    The real travesty here is that Trevor May won't be starting for the Twins in 2016 if all the reports play out.  That is sad. 

     

    Duffey throws a two seam and four seam fastball, a killer curve and changeup.  He rarely uses the changeup (less than 2%).  Some people also say he throws a cutter but I couldn't find evidence oft that.  

     

    The real travesty here is that Trevor May won't be starting for the Twins in 2016 if all the reports play out.  That is sad. 

     

    Duffey throws a two seam and four seam fastball, a killer curve and changeup.  He rarely uses the changeup (less than 2%).  Some people also say he throws a cutter but I couldn't find evidence oft that.  

     

    I agree, I'd like May and Duffey both in the rotation, but May has four pitches and he appears to be locked into the bullpen simply because he was effective there last year and the Twins have self-made bullpen issues currently. Most starters with good velocity and four pitches would make a good bullpen pitcher, but other teams don't push them to the pen because obviously they are more valuable in the rotation pitching two, three, maybe four times as many innings.

     

    Slightly different topic, if Hughes' velocity is still at 90 MPH, he should not be a lock for the rotation. He's been in the pen before and perhaps his velocity returns or increases with the short outings. A 90 MPH FB and a way below average curveball make for a bad starter, just as they did last year. He just doesn't have the breaking pitches to get away with a low velocity FB.

     

    Unfortunately, Nolasco will be a starter.  The Twins will want to have him prove his value as a starter.  Right now he has no value in a trade.  They will give him a good opportunity to start for at least a month, maybe more.  $12m is a lot of money ($24m for the balance of his contract) for the Twins to discard.

     

    The Twins will work toward the starting pitching that will be best in the second half of the season.  It should include Berrios and Duffey (if he is effective) and will mean some demotions and trades to clear the deck. 

     

    I disagree with this - management has already hinted at a move to the bullpen. I think there's little chance Nolasco is in the rotation to start the season.

    If Phil Hughes wasn't given that nonsensical extension 1 year into a 3 year deal, wouldn't the logical decision be to move him to the bullpen, and let May start?  Hughes has been a good reliever in the past, and has far less upside in the rotation

     

     

     


     

    Obviously starting with some depth is nice, I like this mix more than the past few years, but it's not all lollipops and sunshine. :)

    Is the glass half full or is the glass half empty?? :)   I'm going with the half full.

     

    Every team would like to have a couple #1 starters but they're pretty tough to find, how many teams in MLB can say they even have one??  By having competitive starters that keep you in the game every night you move a long ways down the road to fighting for a championship.

    I find it encouraging that the Twins have talent knocking on the door, versus recent years where improvement went from poor to not as poor. Berrios and Duffy will be pitching in the majors this year and that is a significant improvement of what has been available in past years. Plus more coming. Just because of that talent level I have to believe that will force the issue of replacing SP of meh performance. However, for Berrios to come up he will need to be put on the 40 man roster and someone will have to be DFAd. (That shouldn't be much of a problem tho). But there is also no big hurry, IMO, May would be soon enough for me. There is still some sorting out to be done this year on the full team to set up a potential excellent roster. We may very well look back and see how these things will sort out on their own. And I can envision bigger battles coming in subsequent years. There will be plenty to to talk about too.

     

    If Berrios blows people away in ST, he should get a spot in the rotation. 

     

    I understand all of the arguments about money and an extra year of control, but at some point this is a potentially competitive team, and fans should be pulling for the Twins to put the best team on the field that they have available to them.  If this were another rebuilding year, I'd understand saving Berrios for the future.  But I think this team has potential to contend, and it would be a shame if monetary considerations prevented them from giving it their best shot this season.

     

    I've been frustrated this off-season that the Twins did not do more to improve this team, despite the opportunities to do so.  I'll be even more frustrated if the Twins construct their lineup to maximize profits at the expense of making the playoffs.

     

    That said, if Nolasco blows people away in ST, he also should get the spot.  Competition for spots is good for the team, but only if we reward performance.

     

    I love the sentiment in this post, but in reality, give 3 starts to a lesser pitcher in return for an extra year of control? That's a trade I'd make every time. 

     

    If Phil Hughes wasn't given that nonsensical extension 1 year into a 3 year deal, wouldn't the logical decision be to move him to the bullpen, and let May start?  Hughes has been a good reliever in the past, and has far less upside in the rotation

    NO!  Omit the extension and Hughes has several years of success as a starter including the especially good season with the Twins.  May has one month of stink in 2014 and 3 months of mediocrity in 2015 as a starter.

     

    I love the sentiment in this post, but in reality, give 3 starts to a lesser pitcher in return for an extra year of control? That's a trade I'd make every time. 

    MLB teams rarely see it that way, though.  Not a lot of pitchers held back for obvious service time reasons.  I can't think of any held back for an extra year of control, Kris Bryant style.  Gerrit Cole was called up right after the Super-2 date, which didn't get an extra year of control but guaranteed only 3 arb seasons rather than 4, but even that seems pretty rare for pitchers.  The penny-pinching Rays, who famously held back Wil Myers past the Super 2 date, have developed a lot of pitching prospects lately and been pretty aggressive with promoting all of them.

     

    Makes sense, when you think about it.  Pitchers have so much more perceived variability that the present-day value of "guaranteeing" a 7th season is notably lower.  One injury and the whole thing is moot, look at Francisco Liriano (another aggressive promotion back in the day).

     

    NO!  Omit the extension and Hughes has several years of success as a starter including the especially good season with the Twins.  May has one month of stink in 2014 and 3 months of mediocrity in 2015 as a starter.

    Phil Hughes, seasons as a starter, ERA- / FIP-

    2010: 98 / 98

    2011: 138 / 109

    2012: 101 / 107

    2013: 128 / 110

    2014: 91 / 70

    2015: 109 / 116

     

    Trevor May, 3 months starting in his rookie season, ERA- / FIP-

    2015: 108 / 80

     

    I'd be fine with using their current "stuff" to decide which one starts in 2016.

    Edited by spycake

     

    When you are as close as the Twins are, projected near .500 in a weak division, you can't afford to defer a season.

     

    I wouldn't call the AL Central a weak division anymore.  It only has the reigning World Series champion and back to back AL Champion Royals.  Plus the weak teams in the division reloaded this year.  You could see the last place team be very very close to .500.

     

    NO!  Omit the extension and Hughes has several years of success as a starter including the especially good season with the Twins. 

     

    That was when Hughes was throwing 92-94. Last year he was throwing 89-91.

     

    If his velocity is back in 2016 I'm good giving him a lot longer leash. If it's not back, and we should know fairly quickly, his leash should be very, very short.

     

    I wouldn't call the AL Central a weak division anymore.  It only has the reigning World Series champion and back to back AL Champion Royals.  Plus the weak teams in the division reloaded this year.  You could see the last place team be very very close to .500.

    Sorry, I didn't really mean "weak".  More like even, balanced, wide open, etc.  Over at Fangraphs, our projected division winner has the fewest projected wins (84) of any in baseball.  Same for our projected 2nd place team.  Lowest spread between first and last, or second and last, of any division.

     

    Winning now is the goal.

    Here's where I (and many others) disagree with you (and many others).

    The goal (IMHO) should be to build a franchise that contends consistently over a long stretch of time. A team is more likely (IMHO) to win a World Championship by qualifying for the postseason several years in a row than by going all-in for one year.

     

    Here's where I (and many others) disagree with you (and many others).

    The goal (IMHO) should be to build a franchise that contends consistently over a long stretch of time. A team is more likely (IMHO) to win a World Championship by qualifying for the postseason several years in a row than by going all-in for one year.

     

    I don't need to see them get to the playoffs several years in a row to go all in, but I want to see the rotation and the bullpen infused with youth and the young batters who need to be the keystones firmly entrenched. It still looks like 2016 is still going to be heavily influenced by the veterans who have already peaked. When the team finally tosses away the veteran crutches, that's when I want to see them go all in.

     

    Here's where I (and many others) disagree with you (and many others).

    The goal (IMHO) should be to build a franchise that contends consistently over a long stretch of time. A team is more likely (IMHO) to win a World Championship by qualifying for the postseason several years in a row than by going all-in for one year.

    But this year isn't one of the "several years in a row?"

     

     

    Another word for putting off winning is "losing."

     

    The goal should always be to win.  Always.

     

    For one thing, I don't like watching a losing team, for obvious reasons.  

     

    For another, losing now does nothing to guarantee you'll win in the future. Nothing. All it accomplishes is loosing now.

     

     

     

    NO!  Omit the extension and Hughes has several years of success as a starter including the especially good season with the Twins.  May has one month of stink in 2014 and 3 months of mediocrity in 2015 as a starter.

     

    Several years of success as a starter?  Can you tell me which years those are?  

     

    ERA+ By Year; 

     

    2007 - 102

    2008 - 67

    2009 - 152 (reliever)

    2010 - 103

    2011 - 74

    2012 - 101

    2013 - 77

    2014 - 111

    2015 - 94

     

    FIP has not been below 4.50 in 4 of the past 5 years

     

    2014 is pretty clearly the outlier

     

    Phil Hughes, seasons as a starter, ERA- / FIP-

    2010: 98 / 98

    2011: 138 / 109

    2012: 101 / 107

    2013: 128 / 110

    2014: 91 / 70

    2015: 109 / 116

     

    Trevor May, 3 months starting in his rookie season, ERA- / FIP-

    2015: 108 / 80

     

    I'd be fine with using their current "stuff" to decide which one starts in 2016.

     

    Ha, I posted nearly the same thing before seeing this.  Not sure when the "many successful seasons" from Hughes were

     

    MLB teams rarely see it that way, though.  Not a lot of pitchers held back for obvious service time reasons.  I can't think of any held back for an extra year of control, Kris Bryant style.  Gerrit Cole was called up right after the Super-2 date, which didn't get an extra year of control but guaranteed only 3 arb seasons rather than 4, but even that seems pretty rare for pitchers.  The penny-pinching Rays, who famously held back Wil Myers past the Super 2 date, have developed a lot of pitching prospects lately and been pretty aggressive with promoting all of them.

     

    Makes sense, when you think about it.  Pitchers have so much more perceived variability that the present-day value of "guaranteeing" a 7th season is notably lower.  One injury and the whole thing is moot, look at Francisco Liriano (another aggressive promotion back in the day).

     

    OK - I hear you - and don't necessarily disagree, but if he's truly promoted at the end of April into a fulltime rotation role, I'm not sure it's a bad thing.

     

    I would be happy to art the season with two of Milone, Duffey and May.

    The idea that May is even in the competition for a spot in the rotation is just PR talk.  They moved him to the bullpen last year in favor of some inferior SPs.  They have done nothing to improve the bullpen.  The rotation he got bumped out of is mostly the same (minus Pelfrey, that's it). He's now a bullpen guy. That's it.

    Edited by jimmer

    My starting five would be Ervin, May, Berrios, Gibson, and Hughes. I think those are the best five starters and it would be a really, refreshing message to the team. I don't give a rip what your contract situation is, we are fielding the best team a la the Giants and Tim Lincecum, the 20m reliever.

     

    The Twins appear to have moved on from May starting, so then the 5th would be Duffy

     

    I have zero hope Berrios or May will be in the opening day rotation

     

    The goal should always be to win.  Always.

     

    How'd that work out for the Blue Jays last year? How'd that work out for Oakland in 2014? Look at KC. They didn't make big sacrifices. They built their team for longer term success primarily with young players. Yes, it's better to win than to lose but if you put all your eggs in one season's basket you'd better wind up with a dominating team. Otherwise there's a high risk of ending up rebuilding for years when you should have been contending.

    Oh, and by the way, as we all know, this is and ever shall be an agree-to-disagree issue. (And we all love to disagree!)

     

    But this year isn't one of the "several years in a row?"

     

     

    Another word for putting off winning is "losing."

     

    The goal should always be to win.  Always.

     

    For one thing, I don't like watching a losing team, for obvious reasons.  

     

    For another, losing now does nothing to guarantee you'll win in the future. Nothing. All it accomplishes is loosing now.

     

    This sounds good as a bumper sticker, but some elements of reality disagree.

     

    Sometimes, in the maturation from losing to winning, you accept a slightly lesser return immediately for a higher return in the near future.  Most young players go through a rough patch early and need to adjust to the advanced talent of the big league level.  The only way to make that adjustment is to give them the opportunity.

     

    The consequence of that is sometimes a lesser performance than if you went with some vanilla, no upside player that at least gives you a higher floor than the learning young player.  But it's part of the process and has to be accepted if you want to really start winning.  What you're advising is putting lipstick on a pig so you can say you are "winning" more than if you were playing the kids, whereas I'd rather swing for the fences and let the talent adjust for bigger and better things than a pretty pig.  In other words, I want to start to really win and sometimes that requires a small step backward first.

    Edited by TheLeviathan

    I have a hard time holding KC up as a model for "long term success." They went a couple decades without making the postseason, all the while building for the long term success you seek.

     

    And it was only after they traded their best minor league asset did they actually achieve said success.

    I hope this isn't too off topic, but while I have accepted May in the bullpen for now, and think he'll do great there, he absolutely needs to be in the rotation umtil or unless he proves he better and offers greater value as a reliever than as a starter.

     

    Probably not going to happen this year.

     

    What about next season? Barring injury, looking ahead to 2017, Hughes, Santana, Gibson, Berrios, Duffey and possibly Milone. (I'm already counting Nolasco of as gone through whatever circumstance), are all in play. So someone has to go somewhere. So I guess my question is, does that happen? The Twins have a large number of strong RHRP arms about ready to make their presence kmown/felt. So does May go back to the rotation in 2017? Do you see him getting a real chance?

    This sounds good as a bumper sticker, but some elements of reality disagree.

     

    Sometimes, in the maturation from losing to winning, you accept a slightly lesser return immediately for a higher return in the near future.  Most young players go through a rough patch early and need to adjust to the advanced talent of the big league level.  The only way to make that adjustment is to give them the opportunity.

     

    The consequence of that is sometimes a lesser performance than if you went with some vanilla, no upside player that at least gives you a higher floor than the learning young player.  But it's part of the process and has to be accepted if you want to really start winning.  What you're advising is putting lipstick on a pig so you can say you are "winning" more than if you were playing the kids, whereas I'd rather swing for the fences and let the talent adjust for bigger and better things than a pretty pig.  In other words, I want to start to really win and sometimes that requires a small step backward first.

    I think you're confusing me with another poster...one who advocates, for example, keeping Buxton in AAA, so as not to potentially hurt his long term development, while doing little to nothing about THIS team.

     

    I'm the guy who would put Buxton in CF, and let him develop-- maybe even sink or swim--but do my best to surround him with the talent to win now. Let the future take care of itself. If Buxton/Sano/Berrios don't lead us to the promised land in 2019, at least I haven't wasted another 3 years finding that out.

     

    If I have the choice to win now, and perhaps tomorrow, I take that every time over losing now, in hopes I MIGHT perhaps win tomorrow.




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