Article: Position Battle: Fifth Starter

[howieramone1406390264]

Cmath, you said it was obvious after May he was the more talented player. He was brought up sometime just after mid-June. This reminds me of the boards mini-meltdown when Buxton was sent to Ft. Myers a day or so later than some expected. I really don't think a month here and there is all that important and I'm confident our favorite team gets it right alot more often than we do.

 

 

EDIT: I retain this confidence in our favorite team, even though they have lost 90+ games three years in a row.

[cmathewson]

Cmath, you said it was obvious after May he was the more talented player. He was brought up sometime just after mid-June. This reminds of the boards mini-meltdown when Buxton was sent to Ft. Myers a day or so later than some expected. I really don't think a month here and there is all that important and I'm confident our favorite team gets it right alot more often than we do.

 

 

EDIT: I retain this confidence in our favorite team, even though they have lost 90+ games three years in a row.

 

I understand keeping him down if the staff was performing. It was not. In fact, it was historically bad in the first half. They desperately needed Gibson and they still refused to do anything. That is not honoring the fans, imho.

[snepp]

My, my. When I posted that the Twins should just let the marginals "slug it out" in Spring training then cut the losers--in comes the mod to scold me that the Twins "need options".

 

What am I missing, I don't see anything like that in this thread?

[Jham]

There is a thin line between loyalty and stubborness. The Twins front office flirts with that line often. Not only did the Twins attempt to bring in every ex-twin looking for a job this off-season, they also re-signed Pelfrey, and somehow didn't deal Correia. Yes, the Twins ate 2 years of Blackburn's contract, but only after like 4 failed rehab attempts. I think we carted him out in a wheel chair for his last couple minor league starts. What happened to playing the best player? Rewarding performance guarantees effort.

 

Now they're saying that Pelfrey, one of the worst total seasons by a starting pitcher I have ever seen, is guaranteed a spot, but that our far and away best starter last season, Deduno, has to play his way onto the roster. Absurd in my mind, even with the surgery. The 5th spot is his to lose in my mind. He earned it.

 

Also, is the International League the worst AAA league in baseball. I've heard it's quite bad. You see guys like Albers, Hendricks, DeVries, Slama, (Gibson?) etc. tear it up down there, then demonstrate a complete inability to be even serviceable in the bigs. Can someone comment on the strength of the IL compared to others around baseball?

 

PS. Are we so sure that Diamond, Worley, or Deduno are claimed if they play their way off the 25 man? I think if any of the 3 perform that poorly, there is a good chance they pass waivers.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

PS. Are we so sure that Diamond, Worley, or Deduno are claimed if they play their way off the 25 man? I think if any of the 3 perform that poorly, there is a good chance they pass waivers.

 

thanks for jumping in the debate - I am more bullish than you on Pelfrey this year - there is another thread somewhere (or check the blogs maybe) which does discuss the possibility of any of those three guys being claimed from waivers - the overwhelming consensus is that yes each of them would be.

 

Howie, you actually make a good point - a month here or there in the context of the past season or two probably wouldn't make much of a difference.

[jokin]

Despite your bolding, lip-service isn't a fact (something you'd use against the organization at your behest, I think). It's easy to say someone won something that they didn't. We call those beauty prizes. That it took so long for DeVrie to earn his way back speaks far more to what the Twins thought of him, than some give-a-way quote in Spring Training. Really.

 

You can pretend to know what Gibson would have done if you had this that and the other, but really, no one knows, least of all any of us. Gibson stumbled at the ML level, and it's a surrender of personal responsibility to suggest it's anything but his fault. The Twins, honestly, put him in the best position to succeed. That he didn't suggests something about both the extent of his injury and his development.

 

Uhh, it was generally known that DeVries had won a spot in the rotation. This was but one of many articles and media reports that acknowledged that fact- and installing AAAA-types into the rotation had been SOP for 2 seasons running- DeVries was but one of many guys whose only qualification was posessing a pulse who got the "promotion" over Gibson.

 

And regarding Gibson, I don't pretend to know what would have happened. But, as I stated, finding out at the major league level was the object and the point for all of the potential prospects n 2013. There was nothing to lose in the W-L column for the major league club last year. Gibson's superior performances were largely wasted in Rochester. Your stating that the Twins put him "in the best position to succeed" is simply your own opinion, one that many disagree with, and as it turns out, was a completely failed strategy. And it's also merely your opinion that it has something to do with the extent of his injury.

 

But you're right- in that I share your opinion in this last regard, it did have something to do with the extent of his development... and that's what I've been arguing all along, that his development would have been better served at the major league level, while his arm was still fresh.

[jokin]

I understand keeping him down if the staff was performing. It was not. In fact, it was historically bad in the first half. They desperately needed Gibson and they still refused to do anything. That is not honoring the fans, imho.

 

Right-O. Gibson's game log in Rochester is illuminating. Gibson had 15 starts in AAA before finally debuting with the Twins on June 29. In his fiirst 4 starts in April, he had 2 very good performances, one so-so, and one clinker, leaving him with an ERA of 4.43 and WHIP of 1.28. Starting in late April, in 11 starts, Gibson had an ERA of 2.61 with a WHIP of 0.99. This string all started on April 27 with 2 Complete Game shutouts (one near no-hitter), an 8-inning shut out and a 7-inning shut out performance combined with 2 totally expected clinkers through May 25.

 

This was all happening while the Twins Starting Pitchers put up a 6.26 ERA and 1.70 WHIP in May. Before their demotions:

 

Pedro Hernandez contributed 7 starts with a 6.19 ERA.

PJ Walters in 7 appearances had a 6.03 ERA.

Vance Worley in 10 appearances had an ERA of 7.21.

Mike Pelfrey in 14 appearances had an ERA of 6.11.

 

Gibson should have been up much sooner.

[jokin]

Yep, give him time to heal. There is no debate on that. What the results are this year matter. Last year was a recovery year. The question is while regaining the strength is which roster was he better off on. His results do not say it was a mistake to keep him in the minors. Is it better for him as a pitcher rebuilding strength to have bad results? If it was about learning what works and what doesn't at the major league level there was no evidence of learning. If it is honing the craft to be more consistent with his pitches and the bad games were a result of an unhoned craft, the question is what level does he play at to hone that? I think someone said mlb was about winning.

By GSC, Albers pitched 3 gems, PJ Walters pitched a couple of good games.

 

Why are we even still discussing and defending the use of these AAAA-types? The point was that it was incumbent on the Twins to eliminate these types for legitimate contention for SP spots- particularly when blocking guys who still may fit into the long-term plan. The Twins offseason actions in, finally, signing legitimate major league starters is their admission as such- that foisting these types in a MLB rotation was pure and fanciful folly.

[Kwak]

Why are we even still discussing and defending the use of these AAAA-types? The point was that it was incumbent on the Twins to eliminate these types for legitimate contention for SP spots- particularly when blocking guys who still may fit into the long-term plan. The Twins offseason actions in, finally, signing legitimate major league starters is their admission as such- that foisting these types in a MLB rotation was pure and fanciful folly.

 

Why the AAAA veterans you ask? Because shelling-out $30MM for pitching wasn't permitted and/or wasn't claimed to be necessary. Those who were at TD's WinterMeltdown heard that "... got nothing from Worley..."--and that wasn't expected. Last year, watched Diamond turn into graphite and virtually every starter not named Correira get shelled repeatedly. In short, the 2013 plan of "ordinary" starting pitchers blew-up in the Twins face--and they didn't think that would happen! Learning fom experience (and being blessed with many $MMs available from players no longer with the team), money was spent on free-agent veteran pitchers--and the payroll remained in last year's "comfortable" range. We wait for the season to start.

[JB_Iowa]

I hope that there are so many candidates pitching well that this becomes a real problem.

[Mike Sixel]

Pitchers lose velocity starting at about age 22-23. They get better (generally) at pitching as they age. Gibson is 26. He's either in, or entering, his peak performance years. He's not young. He has plenty of AAA experience. They NEED to find out if he's any good or not. They don't need KC or even Pelfrey to pitch this year. They aren't winning any championships with this offense. I don't even know how it is a discussion about Gibson or not. He and Worley need to be in this rotation to see what they have for the future or not. Signing Pelfrey when you have KC made no sense for the short or long term, imo.

[Tibs]

Mike Berardino just posted videos of Deduno throwing live BP to Sano and Vargas. I assume that means he is healthy and ready to go?