Pohlads Willing to Spend?

[Brock Beauchamp]

@PMac21 i’m confused. @TwinsPrez has been clear about that since before season started. Is it that people forgot he said that?

 

It's hard to understand why anybody would put a great deal of stock in anything that Terry Ryan says about the direction of the franchise at this point.

 

Am a big fan of some of his work and not intending to impugn his integrity, but honestly, are people still not aware that his contact with the media is solely intended to further the goals of the franchise? Or that it's the same story with pretty much any other front office people for any other team, and in any other sport as well?

 

This. It always surprises me how many people take his statements as gospel. He has to say certain things to appease the general public while his actions tell a very different story.

[nicksaviking]

I believe the defenders are onboard with using 2nd tier free agents to fill in the pieces. IMHO the disagreement is confined as to whether it is a necessity to pursue top tier free agents, specifically starting pitching. I don't see this fundamental disagreement ever ending.

 

But he's not signing 2nd tier free agents, particularly on the pitching front, and he never has. The arguement absolutely is NOT confined to should they sign top tier free agents.

[LaBombo]

Ryan was at the helm in 96 when the Twins went free agent crazy, though they were old free agents.

 

My memory of that season is thankfully somewhat hazy, other than the tragedy of Puckett and the triumph of Molitor. But other than Molly and a bit of Dave Hollins before he was waiver-wire salary dumped to Seattle for failed slap hitter and future HOF member David Ortiz, which other significant free agents did Ryan go crazy on that year? Even if you count Aggie being brought back, that still looks like a pretty conservative shopping trip to the free agent mart.

 

Edit: Adjusting for inflation, Molitor's 2 year/ 4-ish million a year contract was a big splash for a team coming off an 88 loss season. And Hollins was a 2 million per year guy before and after his Twins stint, and even at the lower 1.35 million the Twins gave him in '96, he was more a of a mid-tier Josh Willingham kind of guy in his day than he was the bargain-basement Rondell White kind of signing that I remembered him as.

[Brock Beauchamp]

My memory of that season is thankfully somewhat hazy, but other than Molitor and a bit of Dave Hollins before he was waiver-wire salary dumped to Seattle for failed slap hitter and future HOF member David Ortiz, which other significant free agents did Ryan go crazy on that year? Even if you count Aggie being brought back, that still looks like a pretty conservative shopping trip to the free agent mart.

 

I thought Steinbach was on the 96 team. My bad, that was 97.

[TheLeviathan]

This. It always surprises me how many people take his statements as gospel. He has to say certain things to appease the general public while his actions tell a very different story.

 

Well right, the problem is when you suggest "here is what is really happening" there are a host of people ready to tell you "nuh uh, he never said that". Just last week on this subject someone suggested they were at the actual budget because no one had said otherwise.

 

I think there is always some subjectivity in interpreting public comments but these were always an obvious cover for misering the payroll. THe scary quotes are Ryans about being meaningful with his additions...because (scarily) I thin he meant those.

[Brock Beauchamp]

THe scary quotes are Ryans about being meaningful with his additions...because (scarily) I thin he meant those.

 

Agreed. While I discard most of what he says publicly in favor of judging his actions, those comments kinda got under my skin.

 

All I can do is hope that he knows he was feeding a line of BS to the media because we all knew that he (mostly) collected nothing but junk this offseason.

[nicksaviking]

Agreed. While I discard most of what he says publicly in favor of judging his actions, those comments kinda got under my skin.

 

All I can do is hope that he knows he was feeding a line of BS to the media because we all knew that he (mostly) collected nothing but junk this offseason.

 

I just can't see any upside to that decpetion, all it does is make him look foolish and unknowledgable.

[LaBombo]

I thought Steinbach was on the 96 team. My bad, that was 97.

Yeah, Steinbach being '96 or '97 was what made me look up the 96 roster.

 

Had also forgotten that Steinbach managed an incredibly flukey but still impressive 35 HR's in his '96 walk year, yet signed with the Twins for a million and a half less than his last couple of seasons with the A's. Even though he was 35 when he signed, that was probably at least a little bit more of a home-town discount than I remembered.

[ThePuck]

Agreed. While I discard most of what he says publicly in favor of judging his actions, those comments kinda got under my skin.

 

All I can do is hope that he knows he was feeding a line of BS to the media because we all knew that he (mostly) collected nothing but junk this offseason.

 

My problem is when he tells the season ticket holders, and those looking to get season tickets, that he will do everything possible to significantly improve the rotation and then we get this rotation, is there something morally wrong in that situation with spouting off mistruths and can we seriously give him a pass on that? It's could be argued this is the worst rotation, overall, than any MLB rotation in over a decade when taking into account everything

[Brock Beauchamp]

I just can't see any upside to that decpetion, all it does is make him look foolish and unknowledgable.

 

It's nothing more than PR double-speak. Say two different things, actually do a third. It's not a practice I'm fond of but it's a reality of almost any job that has a public face.

[Brock Beauchamp]

My problem is when he tells the season ticket holders, and those looking to get season tickets, that he will do everything possible to significantly improve the rotation and then we get this rotation, is there something morally wrong in that situation with spouting off mistruths and can we seriously give him a pass on that?

 

Meh, if I started getting too riled up about that, I'd have to boycott every car company for making false claims. I'd have to boycott every tech company for using ridiculous comparison benchmarks to basically lie about their latest product.

 

Lying and double-speak is a reality of the public relations world. It's a distasteful element of it but considering how nearly everybody partakes in the practice, it's pretty hard to put your foot down and get too upset or you'll spend your entire life being outraged about stuff that really doesn't matter.

 

It's easier to just ignore everything said by a company and instead look at what they're actually doing and base judgment on that.

[nicksaviking]

It's nothing more than PR double-speak. Say two different things, actually do a third. It's not a practice I'm fond of but it's a reality of almost any job that has a public face.

 

I understand the need for deception, and I'm actually not very appalled by such manuevers if it gives the Twins a distinct advantage. I just don't see any possible advantage in this case unless he actually thinks his job depends more on the intent of his moves and not the actual results.

 

If St. Peter and the Pohlads in fact do only care that he "made and effort" then I guess we can shift the blame back to ownership as was mentioned above. This is a results based business, failure due to incompetence can not be accepted as a viable excuse, and trying to use it as an excuse is a monsterous red flag.

[nicksaviking]

St. Peter: Good game today son.

Ryan: (with tears) But dad, we lost!

St. Peter: Well as long as you had fun and gave it everything you had, I'm proud of you.

Ryan: Gee, thanks dad!

St. Peter: Let's go get some ice cream, slugger.

Ryan: Thanks dad!

Ryan: Dad, why was Coach and all the other parents mad at me for throwing past the cutoff man and trying to steal third with two outs?

St. Peter: Well son, some people just don't understand baseball.

[JB_Iowa]

Lying and Deception.

 

Little Boy/Wolf.

 

At some point it comes back to bite you in the butt.

[Kwak]

My memory of that season is thankfully somewhat hazy, other than the tragedy of Puckett and the triumph of Molitor. But other than Molly and a bit of Dave Hollins before he was waiver-wire salary dumped to Seattle for failed slap hitter and future HOF member David Ortiz, which other significant free agents did Ryan go crazy on that year? Even if you count Aggie being brought back, that still looks like a pretty conservative shopping trip to the free agent mart.

 

Edit: Adjusting for inflation, Molitor's 2 year/ 4-ish million a year contract was a big splash for a team coming off an 88 loss season. And Hollins was a 2 million per year guy before and after his Twins stint, and even at the lower 1.35 million the Twins gave him in '96, he was more a of a mid-tier Josh Willingham kind of guy in his day than he was the bargain-basement Rondell White kind of signing that I remembered him as.

 

It seems to me that these FA signings were all about obtaining players with a MN connection to sate the appetites of the hometowner fans and nothing about making the team a champion. Sort of like putting a cute blonde next to your "K" car in order to sell it.

[Dilligaf69]

You guys have to get off the payroll aspect...ask the Dodgers, Angels, Blue Jays how it's working out for them..the Marlins last yr. it means little. The Twins are rebuilding, no need to spend, it's become a boring and somewhat useless debate.

[snepp]

It's a thread about the ownership and spending, what did you think was going to be discussed in it?

[LaBombo]

It seems to me that these FA signings were all about obtaining players with a MN connection to sate the appetites of the hometowner fans and nothing about making the team a champion. Sort of like putting a cute blonde next to your "K" car in order to sell it.

Yeah, and also, in the case of Winfield and Molitor, the free PR and extra ticket sales from the pursuit of 3000 hits probably increased their appeal to the Twins.

[nicksaviking]

You guys have to get off the payroll aspect...ask the Dodgers, Angels, Blue Jays how it's working out for them..the Marlins last yr. it means little. The Twins are rebuilding, no need to spend, it's become a boring and somewhat useless debate.

 

It means little? Then why do the big market teams spend more if it isn't an advantage?

[nicksaviking]

Yeah, and also, in the case of Winfield and Molitor, the free PR and extra ticket sales from the pursuit of 3000 hits probably increased their appeal to the Twins.

 

The ability to promote the hometown guys was surely a factor back then, but Winfield did fill a big hole after Chili Davis left and the 1996 lineup with Molitor would have actually been pretty impressive had Puckett not been lost. Knoblauch, Molitor, Puckett would have been a pretty killer top of the lineup.

 

Still the rotation was another wish and a prayer group made up of castoffs and youngsters, some who may have promise, and others who had been given many chances but could never put it all together. Sounds familiar. Those that don't know history....

[TheLeviathan]

It's a thread about the ownership and spending, what did you think was going to be discussed in it?

 

How we just got Nick Punto's slightly younger Twin called up to reinvigorate the team?

[nicksaviking]

It's been a negative Monday for me, but I want to say for the record that I do not dislike Terry Ryan or even that he is incompetent. However I feel that he is no longer a top GM and too many of his moves (and non-moves) reflect this.

 

I don't know why we have no problems discussing upgrades to middle infielders, starting pitchers and corner outfielders but we can not do so regarding the GM. To some Ryan seems to be a sacred cow. By all rights Justin Morneau should be revered at the same or higher level than Terry Ryan in terms of organizational fondness, yet when we discuss the decline of Morneau there is not the same level of defensiveness, even when it comes to inevitable loss of our former All-Star. Is it simply because of the position? Perhaps, but I don't know why the GM would be such a flashpoint compared to a player we watch on TV everyday.

[Nick Nelson]

I don't know why we have no problems discussing upgrades to middle infielders, starting pitchers and corner outfielders but we can not do so regarding the GM.

We do discuss it. Very frequently. Probably too frequently. Here's the thing: it's easy to assess the performances of middle infielders, starting pitchers and corner outfielders because we watch them do their jobs on a daily basis. Not so easy to assess the performance of a GM who does most of his work behind the scenes.

 

I was irked by Ryan's approach this offseason and I think his overly conservative approach is being reflected now by the team's record, but no one really expected the team to win this year and there's no denying that overall he and his staff have the organization on the right track.

[IdahoPilgrim]

I don't know why we have no problems discussing upgrades to middle infielders, starting pitchers and corner outfielders but we can not do so regarding the GM. To some Ryan seems to be a sacred cow. By all rights Justin Morneau should be revered at the same or higher level than Terry Ryan in terms of organizational fondness, yet when we discuss the decline of Morneau there is not the same level of defensiveness, even when it comes to inevitable loss of our former All-Star. Is it simply because of the position? Perhaps, but I don't know why the GM would be such a flashpoint compared to a player we watch on TV everyday.

 

That may be true for some. My suspicion, based on the the comparative volume of posts that are supportive of TR and posts that are critical of TR, is that there are just as many people (and I'm not targeting any particular individual so please don't think this is aimed at you:)) for whom being critical of Ryan has also become almost a matter of faith that dare not be questioned. If I had a complaint about some of the discussions that occur in these forums, it would be that sometimes threads go beyond a valid and helpful exchange of views and become attempts to convince others that someone is right and the other person is wrong, to feel the need to have the last word.

 

As far as the topic at hand (Pohlad's/Terry Ryan/Spending) I am going to wait until 2015 to make an evaluation. I work in an environment itself where turning around an organization going the wrong direction can not be done quickly and often takes years. My own view is that the best way to rebuild is through smart drafting and development, which in baseball also takes years. I know others disagree and wish we were more active in the FA market and have made valid cases supporting that, but I still think the draft and development are the way to go. I think the standard should be do we have a team that can be above .500 AND compete for the division title by 2015. If so, I'm happy with the whole rebuild/spending plan. If not, then I think a change is in order.

[TheLeviathan]

My own view is that the best way to rebuild is through smart drafting and development....... more active in the FA market

 

[ThePuck]

My own view is that the best way to rebuild is through smart drafting and development, which in baseball also takes years. I know others disagree and wish we were more active in the FA market and have made valid cases supporting that, but I still think the draft and development are the way to go.

 

Who disagrees that the best way to rebuild is through smart drafting and development? Wishing the team was more active in the FA market doesn't live separately from that belief. It doesn't have to be, nor should it be, one way or the other.

[drjim]

Who disagrees that the best way to rebuild is through smart drafting and development? Wishing the team was more active in the FA market doesn't live separately from that belief. It doesn't have to be, nor should it be, one way or the other.

 

I think complaints like this really fail to acknowledge how few quality free agent options there actually were last offseason.

 

This complaint goes round and round and is beaten to death and this fundamental fact still hasn't changed.

[ThePuck]

I think complaints like this really fail to acknowledge how few quality free agent options there actually were last offseason.

 

This complaint goes round and round and is beaten to death and this fundamental fact still hasn't changed.

 

My post wasn't a complaint. No complaint in there, whatsoever. My post was pointing out that building a team can be done by also getting some free agents in addition to drafting and developing....that it doesn't have to be draft and develop OR get free agents, it can be both...and that not one person in here has said the best way to build a team is through free agency.

 

This to counter the notion that posters in here are disagreeing with his belief that the best way to rebuild is through smart drafting and development

[Wookiee of the Year]

Maybe my memory fails me, but I recall strong evidence the Twins made an offer to Joe Saunders in January/February 2013, after all their other acquisitions. My guess is it was roughly the size of that offer that marks the difference between the payroll room Ryan had and the money he spent.

 

I'll admit, I don't have a strong recollection of the free agent situation after Saunders went to Seattle, but my guess is Ryan took a look around, shrugged, and said, "Well, I guess I won't be hitting the cap this year."

 

This isn't to excuse his behavior--I think he should've been much more aggressive this offseason, and I think he signed Correia at exactly the wrong time (right when he thought FA contracts were going to blow up this offseason, but right before they actually mellowed out), but the idea that the Pohlads gave him extra payroll room he didn't end up using squares with my memories of the late winter.

[ThePuck]

Maybe my memory fails me, but I recall strong evidence the Twins made an offer to Joe Saunders in January/February 2013, after all their other acquisitions. My guess is it was roughly the size of that offer that marks the difference between the payroll room Ryan had and the money he spent.

 

I'll admit, I don't have a strong recollection of the free agent situation after Saunders went to Seattle, but my guess is Ryan took a look around, shrugged, and said, "Well, I guess I won't be hitting the cap this year."

 

This isn't to excuse his behavior--I think he should've been much more aggressive this offseason, and I think he signed Correia at exactly the wrong time (right when he thought FA contracts were going to blow up this offseason, but right before they actually mellowed out), but the idea that the Pohlads gave him extra payroll room he didn't end up using squares with my memories of the late winter.

 

Well, he likely had about 20M available, so I don't think the Saunders contract would have put him up against the payroll available since he got less than 7M.