Game of Thrones

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

In the book or the TV series?

In the books Arya is everyone's favorite character.  Brienne is a fan favorite taking on the noble knight role.  Cercei isn't stupid - she's reckless and lacks wisdom but is a solid villain.  Sansa has grown in the books and her biggest mistake happened in the first book.  And obviously Dani is a much more complex and well rounded character in the books, neither obnoxious or stupid. 

Actually, I'd argue that all of those characters are pretty dense in their own ways. Cersei does incredibly stupid things. She's smart but she's so blinded by her emotions that she routinely does very stupid things (how woman-like of her!). Brienne is a fan favorite but she's closer to Hodor than Tywin in the brains department. Arya is a little kid. She's wily but still a kid. Sansa may no longer be stupid but she's still feckless, wallowing around and being led by the nose by basically everyone she encounters. I still hold a small amount of hope for Dani but she's been written as childish and petulant for the past few books. After hitting her stride in books two and three, she has slowly been diminished by Martin. Melissandre is the one character who is competent, female, and not hindered by her out of control female hormones. Margaery might get there but she's still mostly a background character.

 

Opposite those less-than-stellar women, you have a brainy group of men. Tywin, who was incredibly adept at pretty much everything. Tyrion, who is a master trickster and extremely clever. Jaime is just kinda middling in smarts but he's turning into a moral compass of the series. Littlefinger, who is, again, extremely clever and hoodwinks pretty much every other character at one point or another. Varys is the man behind the curtain, orchestrating a revolution. Ned Stark was noble and just, not terribly bright but he had more redeeming qualities than you can shake a stick at. Robb Stark was a lesser version of Ned. Jon is a bit brighter than either of them but still holds the moral high ground over pretty much anybody else left standing at this point in the story. Stannis is a bit of an idiot but his Hand is extremely competent and pragmatic.

 

Compare those two lists and tell me there isn't a problem here.

[TheLeviathan]

I meant book.  I like Arya and I agree that many features of her character are strong and competent and I'm hoping to see that continue to develop.  I'd grant that one for sure.  Brienne hasn't been particularly competent (she's basically Ned without the influence required for someone to want to see her dead)  Cersei is good, but a bit hollow, but I'd grant her too.

 

Where we disagree is Dani.  As of Storm of Swords?  Hell yeah.  One of the best female fantasy characters ever.  The last two books took a huge toll on that.  Could they be trials and tribulations that make her stronger?  Yes, I wouldn't rule that out, but where we stand today it isn't pretty.  

 

And Sansa?  How could she not get better?  Her selfish stupidity had nothing to do with not knowing politics.  She was really just a foil to make things roll the way he wanted the narrative to go.  Which is fine, I just bristle when anyone tells me she's any better in the books.

 

I hold hope that Arya and Dani redeem the women of this series, I really do.  But my confidence in Martin is waning.

[TheLeviathan]

 

The basic structure of the narrative is that everyone is flawed in some way, women and men. Face it, ruling kingdoms is hard work.

 

Mike, I specifically said they didn't have to be flawless.  Just not dumb, gullible, or over-emotional.  Gunnathor covered the ones I'd grant - there are some minor characters who fit that too of course, but of the main cast?  Brock is right, the vast majority of the men are controlling what happens while the women dutifully follow along.  Even Cersei's schemes have largely only worked because Tywin bailed her out.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Brock is right, the vast majority of the men are controlling what happens while the women dutifully follow along.  Even Cersei's schemes have largely only worked because Tywin bailed her out.

That's because the men are flawed in different, unique ways while the women mostly share the same emotional flaws.

 

If the men falter, it's because they're usually flawed with extreme nobility or trust (Ned, Robb, Jon). If the women falter, it's because they can't get out of their own way. Obviously, there are exceptions to that statement but it's a theme that runs throughout the series to the point that I've put down the books more than once and hollered "Oh, COME ON." after a particularly aggravating scene.

 

There is something to respect about virtually every male character in The Song of Ice and Fire series whether it's intelligence, nobility, or cleverness. I cannot say the same about the women. It's a theme that is prevalent in far too many fantasy series, which are usually written by old white men who always seem to have serious issues with women.

[gunnarthor]

 

 

Opposite those less-than-stellar women, you have a brainy group of men. Tywin, who was incredibly adept at pretty much everything. Tyrion, who is a master trickster and extremely clever. Jaime is just kinda middling in smarts but he's turning into a moral compass of the series. Littlefinger, who is, again, extremely clever and hoodwinks pretty much every other character at one point or another. Varys is the man behind the curtain, orchestrating a revolution. Ned Stark was noble and just, not terribly bright but he had more redeeming qualities than you can shake a stick at. Robb Stark was a lesser version of Ned. Jon is a bit brighter than either of them but still holds the moral high ground over pretty much anybody else left standing at this point in the story. Stannis is a bit of an idiot but his Hand is extremely competent and pragmatic.

 

Compare those two lists and tell me there isn't a problem here.

Well, the first problem is that several of the male characters you have are not main characters.   In the books, Varys, Robb, Littlefinger, Stannis and Tywin are never POV guys and aren't actually in the books that much.  We are told about their schemes but it's not really character driven, it's plot driven and they are the vehicle that Martin uses to advance plot.  I don't think any of them are terribly well defined characters, although Stannis is probably the most developed in the books.  (The TV show did a much better job of flushing out those characters). 

 

You and Levi certainly have a different view of Dani in Dance of Dragons.  I like the storyline and how hard it is to rule a foreign culture.  I don't see it as a lessening of her character but I can see why you might.  I certainly don't see any flaws of her that are gender driven.

 

I'm not going to argue that Martin writes women better or not.  Others can do that. I do think that his female characters are generally a lot more complex than the majority of female fantasy characters I read growing up - ASOIAF is a ton better in all respects to the Wiess/Hickman Dragonlance novels, for instance. 

 

I do, however, think all POV characters have something in them that is "respectful" - even Oakheart had his failed nobility.  I don't think his female POV characters share some similar emotional flaw as compared to the male POV characters. 

[TheLeviathan]

I'm not going to argue that Martin writes women better or not.Others can do that. I do think that his female characters are generally a lot more complex than the majority of female fantasy characters I read growing up - ASOIAF is a ton better in all respects to the Wiess/Hickman Dragonlance novels, for instance.

 

 

I won't argue with that at all and I don't think you're arguing the characterizations are strong, but there is that interpretation out there in ASOIAF fandom.  

 

The show is starting to reach those same troublesome parts with Dany, but what will ultimately matter most for both the show and the book is how she comes out of it.  That remains to be seen, so I'm willing to wait and see (and hope) with her.

 

Sansa?  Terrible.  I think what many readers struggle with is that when the show lays bare the novel, it's hard for them to swallow.  (Not saying that's you)  They want so badly to believe Sansa is on the road to redemption and away from victimhood and blame the show for portraying her that way, but the truth is that she is every bit (if not moreso) the hapless, gullible, stupid, selfish, emotionally driven caricature of a woman that the show has made her to be.  She is so obsessed with love and needing a husband that she has literally gotten half her family killed and caused thousands of deaths.  Worse yet - it took a sneaky, manipulative man to pull her out of those awful choices and is currently manipulating her (again) towards his own ends.

 

MAYBE Martin has Sansa turn the tables on Littlefinger, but that would still be so, so far out of character for her that I don't see how that's possible.

[gunnarthor]

 

 

 

MAYBE Martin has Sansa turn the tables on Littlefinger, but that would still be so, so far out of character for her that I don't see how that's possible.

The Ghost of High Heart called it. 

[TheLeviathan]

Perhaps, I have some difficulty with "savage giant" being a little finger reference. I dont have an alternative better though either.

[Mike Sixel]

Why does Sansa have to grow. Maybe she is just a loser. I also disagree on your assessment of the men. The first king dies because he is a glutton. Ned dies because he is unable to understand basic politics, despite being trained in it for a lifetime. Jamie .... every bad decision he makes is sourced in love and lust for his sister. Stanis is controlled by a woman. Jon can't get over his various emotions at all, though his seem to lead him to a lucky good outcome. The ironborn men? All losers so far. The Boltons are repulsive. Cersei is the living ruler of the family, all the others are dead or exiled or crippled. Dani is the living ruler, her brother is dead.

 

I am not saying there are not issues with how he treats women, but I think people overstate how well he treats men.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Why does Sansa have to grow. Maybe she is just a loser. I also disagree on your assessment of the men. The first king dies because he is a glutton. Ned dies because he is unable to understand basic politics, despite being trained in it for a lifetime. Jamie .... every bad decision he makes is sourced in love and lust for his sister. Stanis is controlled by a woman. Jon can't get over his various emotions at all, though his seem to lead him to a lucky good outcome. The ironborn men? All losers so far. The Boltons are repulsive. Cersei is the living ruler of the family, all the others are dead or exiled or crippled. Dani is the living ruler, her brother is dead.

I am not saying there are not issues with how he treats women, but I think people overstate how well he treats men.

 

If Sansa is just a loser through and through, that's fine with me.  But in the wake of some stupid choices by the show (mostly in execution rather than in theory), the book zealots have been lording over how the show has torn down the great Sansa Stark.  She really is the worst character and a horribly misogynistic take on a teenage girl.   If we can all agree to that rational conclusion it really isn't an issue with the show, but the source material.

 

I agree there are a lot of scummy men, but most of the guys you listed are side characters.  Ned didn't die by being bad at politics, he died because he had a profound belief in honor to the point of naivete.    He understood politics, he just refused to dive down in the muck.

 

The problem isn't that all his men are good and all his women are dumb, it's that the vast majority of his women are emotional basket cases that need the men to tell them what to do.  

[TheLeviathan]

Let me add to that real quick:

 

Dany - Martin's female character that SHOULD be his redemption and an opportunity for a profoundly awesome lead fantasy female character - is currently stuck in a mess of politics and strife of her own creation.  And what is she waiting for exactly?

 

That's right - the council of men much smarter than her to tell her what to do so she quits messing **** up all the time.  The best chance for a strong female is waiting for a smart-ass dwarf male to come along and clean up her mess for her.

[Mike Sixel]

I don't agree that having a dumb teenage girl is mysogony, anymore than I agree having a moving with Russian terrorists says all Russian are bad/evil.

 

Sansa is weak, and emotional, and is not even 16 I don't think......who was trained and raised to follow the man of the house (that's, you know, kind of how Europe worked).

 

Wait, Jon Snow is a minor character? The entire Bolton family are minor? The entire waterborn are minor, all of them in total? Jamie, minor character? I'm a bit confused by that.

 

Who are the MAJOR characters that aren't stupid, lusty, gluttons, slavers, driven by passion for a woman, controlled by a woman? Other than the dwarf?

 

I predict Peter will come "THIS CLOSE" to his goal, then get crushed at the end, and all of his lust for power will just get him killed, like every other man in the series. The women are largely surviving, largely.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I don't agree that having a dumb teenage girl is mysogony, anymore than I agree having a moving with Russian terrorists says all Russian are bad/evil.

 

Sansa is weak, and emotional, and is not even 16 I don't think......who was trained and raised to follow the man of the house (that's, you know, kind of how Europe worked).

 

Wait, Jon Snow is a minor character? The entire Bolton family are minor? The entire waterborn are minor, all of them in total? Jamie, minor character? I'm a bit confused by that.

 

Who are the MAJOR characters that aren't stupid, lusty, gluttons, slavers, driven by passion for a woman, controlled by a woman? Other than the dwarf?

 

I predict Peter will come "THIS CLOSE" to his goal, then get crushed at the end, and all of his lust for power will just get him killed, like every other man in the series. The women are largely surviving, largely.

 

Mike, I'm sorry, but you're having a rash of difficulties reading posts lately it seems.  I specifically said that there are plenty of bad dudes, but that's missing the point.

 

The point is that all the female characters are morons that need men to advance their cause.  You just basically admitted that he's writing women as if it's 14th century France.  That's fine and it is part of the context of his writing, but you can't say that and say his female characters are anything more than a 14th century woman - obedient to a fault, meek, timid, and largely irrelevant to the power making decisions.  That's what they are - there to be props for the men that ultimately matter.

[Mike Sixel]

I find that to be an exaggeration, and no, I'm not having any difficulty reading your posts. We just disagree. I said SANSA is like 14th century France. I'm not missing your point at all, I'm saying you are only looking at the woman side, and drawing a conclusion that I don't completely agree with.

 

Never said that about Cersei, or Dany, or Mellisandre, or any other woman.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I think the misogyny is a bit overblown personally.  For all the comments about 14th century France, the reality is that this is a 14th century culture with Dragons and magic.  I expect that to an extent.  Perhaps Martin just doesn't know how to write women... who knows.  But at the same time, I don't see a lot of flawless characters.  I think that's intentional.  I do agree that there's a handful of characters I'm interested in... Dani, Jamie, Tyrion, Jon, etc.   I also see characters reacting to what's being presented to them.  Sansa and Dani are teenagers in the book who had to go through a lot more than a typical teenager.  They act accordingly with teenage idealism... and it bites them hard.  I think most teenage girls and teenage boys thrust into those types of situations would make some pretty drastic mistakes. 

[gunnarthor]

 

The point is that all the female characters are morons that need men to advance their cause. 

The problem is that many of understand that that is your point.  We just don't agree.

 

And I think that's fine.  My wife loved "Emma" by Jane Austin.  I hate it.  I think Emma is a horrible character but my wife sees her completely differently.  We're both smart, we both read a lot of books, by most definitions we are "cultured."  And yet my wife is completely, utterly wrong on this.  But that's the way it is. 

 

It's not really worth the fighting and arguing. So if you think certain ways of characters, you aren't wrong.  But neither is Mike or I who think completely differently. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

It's not really worth the fighting and arguing. So if you think certain ways of characters, you aren't wrong.  But neither is Mike or I who think completely differently. 

 

I agree, though I think there can be more or less merit in some positions people take on their favorite books.  A lot of us become fan-boys/girls of something and lose perspective on this.  And it is especially prone to happening when something we enjoyed as a book becomes a film/tv show.  Not saying you or mike are doing that, but sometimes we pick and choose what we WANT to see in a character rather than what is there.  

 

In any case, what made me bristle was a notion that mike looks like he edited in his post.  Never once did Brock or I suggest all the guys are paragons of virtue.  But almost all of them have some strong, positive capacity to themselves that the female characters lack.  Jon Snow has flaws, but he's also radically changing the circumstances at the Wall for the better.  Ned might have been naive, but he was naive because he wanted to believe in the best.  Jamie is genuinely trying to become a better person.  Tyrion is usually a character of high moral standards and highly intelligent.  Most of the female characters - central and tertiary - are pretty hollow caricatures IMO.  Driven almost exclusively by emotions they can't control.

 

 But I hold hope for Arya and Dani.

[Mike Sixel]

I think we probably agree mostly on this. I don't love how some/many of the women are portrayed. where we seem to disagree is on how much of that is misogyny and whether Cersei is really weak or not, as an example. We will see. The real question for me is will I even read another one or not, or just watch from here on out.

[Zachary]

I wish I would have seen this thread earlier.

 

I am a huge fan of the novels as well as the show. Here is my 2 cents on what's been discussed on the previous 7 pages

 

1. If you are concerned about spoiling the show, take note that the show is not only changing some things from the books, they are also essentially caught up to the novels. That means for someone who has read the novels, even then you are unsure about what will happen each week.

 

2. I do agree that I found myself looking forward to certain character POVs and dreading chapters of characters that were rather uninteresting. Many times the only emotionally appealing thing about certain chapters was the 'suspenseful' one liners that ended each chapter.

 

3. Lena Headey is phenomenal.

 

4. Despite the frustrating chapters in the novel, I still really enjoy them. Just the sheer size of this universe and the epiceness of the story is really appealing to me.

[TheLeviathan]

The show just took an even bigger lead in the race for my affection last night. Holy crap.

[Mike Sixel]

 

The show just took an even bigger lead in the race for my affection last night. Holy crap.

 

Some days I wish I wasn't so cheap, and had HBO.......oh well.

[jimmer]

Absolutely love this show.  Glad to see Dany is taking on Tyrion as an adviser.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Some days I wish I wasn't so cheap, and had HBO.......oh well.

Last night was worth it.  If someone had recorded my face the last 30 minutes - it would've been the dumbest expression of pure shock/joy/amazement/marveling at the badassery ever.  It was a crescendo like no other TV show can muster to a brilliant finish.

[Mike Sixel]

I buy the blu rays......I just have to wait.

[Brock Beauchamp]

The show really stepped it up that episode. It started down the path of resolving two major plot lines we've waited WAY too long to see/read.

[TheLeviathan]

 

The show really stepped it up that episode. It started down the path of resolving two major plot lines we've waited WAY too long to see/read.

 

It's Martin's greatest mistake...he introduced his true antagonist for the series in his first novel and then largely ignored them for most of what he wrote subsequently.

 

The show has never forgotten them and never let us forget them either.  That's a huge thing and that 25 minutes at the end of last night were a friggin rollercoaster.

[Brock Beauchamp]

He didn't even introduce them in the first novel... He introduced them in the PROLOGUE of the first novel and then basically ignored it after that point.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

It's Martin's greatest mistake...he introduced his true antagonist for the series in his first novel and then largely ignored them for most of what he wrote subsequently.

Once Martin fell in love with his own world, the writing started to suffer.

 

I'm re-reading The Dark Tower series right now and the contrast between the two authors is jarring. King is basically writing an homage to himself, twisting and turning through his own works and imagination... But he never forgets that the story is about Roland and his quest for the Tower. He's world-building constantly and hitting just the right keys to amuse readers familiar with his work but he never loses sight of why he's writing the series.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Once Martin fell in love with his own world, the writing started to suffer.

 

I'm re-reading The Dark Tower series right now and the contrast between the two authors is jarring. King is basically writing an homage to himself, twisting and turning through his own works and imagination... But he never forgets that the story is about Roland and his quest for the Tower. He's world-building constantly and hitting just the right keys to amuse readers familiar with his work but he never loses sight of why he's writing the series.

 

A good contrast for sure.  The Dark Tower is close to my heart.  Now you've gone and made me consider picking it up from square one again.

[Mike Sixel]

My son finds a way to watch GoT.....he loved that episode. I guess I'll see it in about 10 months.....