Loki - SPOILERS

[Mike Sixel]

Thoughts? I switch between hating it .. And liking it. Wandavision is the best of the three remarkably different sites so far.

I hate that the TVA can neuter anyone, and no one knows they exist. I hate that Loki is basically not good at anything. But I did really like the last two episodes....

[TheLeviathan]

I have found it best to wait until the series ends to draw conclusions.  For example....I really dug Falcon and Winter Soldier but it didnt stick the landing.

I continue to be entertained and curious and in today's landscape I call that a win.

[Mike Sixel]

There were things to love in F&WS....and things not to. Only WandaVision has been been great every step of the way, imo.

I really, really, wish we'd gotten even more from FWS about the fallout of people dying, then coming back (same with WandaVision, though I didn't miss it there). Indeed, I'd watch a whole show about how people reacted to both events.

[TheLeviathan]

I think the TVA is all a villainous front meant to serve a big villain on the horizon.  The multiverse is about to get unlocked and open (literally) an infinite array of possibilities.  But that post credits tease was super cool.  Can't wait to see Richard Grant more.

[Mike Sixel]

11 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

I think the TVA is all a villainous front meant to serve a big villain on the horizon.  The multiverse is about to get unlocked and open (literally) an infinite array of possibilities.  But that post credits tease was super cool.  Can't wait to see Richard Grant more.

Truth.......is the alligator a Loki stuck in shapeshifted form? I'd have also liked at least one female/non-male in that group....

[Brock Beauchamp]

I’m enjoying the show much more than I expected. I liked F&WS and WV close to equally but wasn’t very excited about Loki at all.

What I like most about Marvel’s D+ offerings are their wildly different tones. That in itself keeps me engaged. 

[Mike Sixel]

Episode 5 was great. All the Lokis betraying each other was perfect. As was our Loki learning he's more powerful than he thinks he is.....which I hope he takes into future shows/movies.

[Craig Arko]

Now I want alligator Doctor Who.

[Mike Sixel]

On 7/11/2021 at 5:53 AM, Craig Arko said:

Now I want alligator Doctor Who.

I'm baffled by the interest. It's a one trick pony. 

[Craig Arko]

5 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

I'm baffled by the interest. It's a one trick pony. 

It’s a perplexing world in which we live.

[a-wan]

I want a Sylvie/Red Guardian Disney+ show now.

[TheLeviathan]

I won't spoil anything, but if anyone is confused by how eccentric our villain was I'll be happy to give a history lesson!  

Love what they did and the door they just opened.  It was menacing in a Willy Wonka sort of way.  I'm excited to see how Marvel continues this direction.

[Brock Beauchamp]

What a fantastic finale and introduction to one of Marvel’s greatest villains. 

[TheLeviathan]

He is the perfect follow-up villain after Thanos.  And a perfect bridge to the guy who is likely on deck.  (Looking at you Doctor Doom)

[Brock Beauchamp]

4 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

He is the perfect follow-up villain after Thanos.  And a perfect bridge to the guy who is likely on deck.  (Looking at you Doctor Doom)

I think the baddie introduced now may end up being the Big Bad a couple of phases down the line and we may see Doom before we really dive into the new guy.

[TheLeviathan]

Just now, Brock Beauchamp said:

I think the baddie introduced now may end up being the Big Bad a couple of phases down the line and we may see Doom before we really dive into the new guy.

True, they are talking F4 in the near future.

[Mike Sixel]

I thought it was fine........if you don't know the comics at all, I think you find it less interesting (anecdotal evidence of friends). I mean, there were great parts for sure, but something was missing for me. Kind of how I've felt about Loki the whole time. Some great stuff, really great stuff, but something not quite right for me personally.

[Mike Sixel]

This captures A LOT of my thoughts (not agreeing with all of them, but many)....

https://www.tor.com/2021/07/14/loki-finds-the-man-behind-the-curtain-in-for-all-time-always/

[TheLeviathan]

41 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

This captures A LOT of my thoughts (not agreeing with all of them, but many)....

https://www.tor.com/2021/07/14/loki-finds-the-man-behind-the-curtain-in-for-all-time-always/

I can see why the criticisms with Sylvie and the other side characters being undeveloped are valid.  Many in the TVA were underdeveloped because their nature was kept as a mystery for much of the show.  I'd say to that.....six hours isn't a lot of time to develop those characters if they are meant to be mysterious.  Still, I get it.

Where they lose me is in calling Loki a six hour Kang reveal.  There was very real, very well done development of Loki's personality and motivations.  He started the show as the Loki from the battle of New York and ended it a very much changed person.  I don't think that criticism had any validity at all.

And the last thing in that review I take away is that if I'm a producer or actor in hollywood I would never mention my intentions about representation on the front end.  It is abundantly clear in a variety of reviews for this show that it merely opened the door for critics that have zero intention of ever being satisfied to launch into nonsensical soapboxes.  I believe strongly in representation and telling stories that will help everyone feel a part of the fictional worlds of entertainment, but the vocal crowd that opines is simply unreasonable.  And their unreasonable nature will influence the experiences of many unfairly and, I worry, influence the willingness of entertainment to take chances and be bold representing all walks of people.

[Mike Sixel]

Sure, I agree with some, not all, of what is in there.

As for Kang....as someone not familiar with the comics and who never wants to be, who wants to watch the movies and tv shows, there is no way I know anything about him at this point, other than what he said in the show. 

[TheLeviathan]

4 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Sure, I agree with some, not all, of what is in there.

As for Kang....as someone not familiar with the comics and who never wants to be, who wants to watch the movies and tv shows, there is no way I know anything about him at this point, other than what he said in the show. 

Definitely and I agree with what you said about non-readers in struggling to understand what they saw with him.  That missed the mark just a little bit.  They should've given a short glimpse at the kind of variant of himself he was worried about.

We got introduced to Thanos in bits and pieces too, I wonder if this scene will look better when we have more context as the future goes on.  Not that it helps now for those that didn't quite connect with the character.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I also agree that story was *very much* about Loki and his/her motivations. The entire Loki/Sylvie dynamic focused on that and it came to a boil in the void world when all the Lokis were in play at once. One of my favorite moments of the entire series is the bit about how "the moment any of us try to change, we end up here". All of the Lokis were a reflection of the Hiddleston Loki and looking back, I still can't believe Richard Grant was in ONE EPISODE. His portrayal of basically an older Hiddleston Loki was simply outstanding and everything about that episode looped back to Loki, his flaws, and why it's so hard for him to change.

[Mike Sixel]

4 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

I also agree that story was *very much* about Loki and his/her motivations. The entire Loki/Sylvie dynamic focused on that and it came to a boil in the void world when all the Lokis were in play at once. One of my favorite moments of the entire series is the bit about how "the moment any of us try to change, we end up here". All of the Lokis were a reflection of the Hiddleston Loki and looking back, I still can't believe Richard Grant was in ONE EPISODE. His portrayal of basically an older Hiddleston Loki was simply outstanding and everything about that episode looped back to Loki, his flaws, and why it's so hard for him to change.

That was 100% my favorite part of the show, all the Lokis, how they all get pruned, and they all survive. There could be A LOT more to that story, like why them? 

My guess is that Kang the conqueror won, and is using the TVA to prune his opponent Kangs (not knowing anything about the comics). Loki somehow needs to work with other Lokis to undo that......at least, that's how I'd write the show from here on out. So many fun things to do with Lokis, and so many timelines they can drop into and out of. The author David Farland touches on this on his latest lesson on writing, how you can keep the same character, but tell different stories in different timelines....

[a-wan]

Isn’t part of entertainment the journey, not just the destination? As Levi said, Loki started as the villain from Avengers 1, and evolved into an antihero or downright hero. Along the way he changed, picked up a real glorious purpose and found he can love another person. Just because that person is… the same being.

The criticism about not having Loki popping up talking about their vagina while kissing Sylvie is because as Levi said the big discussion by the show runners talking about their representation goals. It is exhausting.

[TheLeviathan]

4 minutes ago, a-wan said:

Isn’t part of entertainment the journey, not just the destination? As Levi said, Loki started as the villain from Avengers 1, and evolved into an antihero or downright hero. Along the way he changed, picked up a real glorious purpose and found he can love another person. Just because that person is… the same being.

The criticism about not having Loki popping up talking about their vagina while kissing Sylvie is because as Levi said the big discussion by the show runners talking about their representation goals. It is exhausting.

I feel like, had they said nothing about their goals, we'd be celebrating today about how the MCU just hitched their next decade to a brilliant black actor to carry the franchise as the binding force.

Instead we're trying to figure out if the show was everything for everyone because they acknowledged the character's gender fluidity in the comics.  The response seems to not only miss the best parts of the show, but be counterproductive to the next group of producers and talents who want to broaden representation.  If the same people are always outraged and upset, it seems defeatist to keep going down that path.

Whether the story ending landed with you or not, Jonathan Majors was ****ing incredible.  It's exciting to think about what he'll bring.  That should be the celebration.  Instead the Vulture articles and the one Mike posted are just bitter and unfair.  It sucks.

[Mike Sixel]

I can certainly understand the anger of those that feel the way they do on both the side of those articles, and of those that think they are looking at the world in a bitter way. When you go back and look at how TV was just a few years ago, it is clear the US has come a long way. OTOH, when you see a tv show get 18 emmy nominations and get cancelled.....

[TheLeviathan]

7 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

I can certainly understand the anger of those that feel the way they do on both the side of those articles, and of those that think they are looking at the world in a bitter way. When you go back and look at how TV was just a few years ago, it is clear the US has come a long way. OTOH, when you see a tv show get 18 emmy nominations and get cancelled.....

I understand frustration and a lack of satisfaction.  What I'd like to see is less bitterness from a "you either fail or you succeed" sort of mindset.  You can't be everything to everyone and some recognition of that would be nice.  As you said, clearly strides are being made.  Loki tried....maybe it failed....but trying something heretofore untried is something to be appreciated.  Other elements of their efforts on representation also deserve appreciation.  Perhaps sharing that dissatisfaction along with a genuine appreciation for the effort would help the criticism feel constructive rather than impossible.

But that requires nuance and social media sucks at that.  And that is where the battle is waged unfortunately.

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, TheLeviathan said:

I understand frustration and a lack of satisfaction.  What I'd like to see is less bitterness from a "you either fail or you succeed" sort of mindset.  You can't be everything to everyone and some recognition of that would be nice.  As you said, clearly strides are being made.  Loki tried....maybe it failed....but trying something heretofore untried is something to be appreciated.  Other elements of their efforts on representation also deserve appreciation.  Perhaps sharing that dissatisfaction along with a genuine appreciation for the effort would help the criticism feel constructive rather than impossible.

But that requires nuance and social media sucks at that.  And that is where the battle is waged unfortunately.

as you would expect, we are in agreement on that.........100% on that.

[gunnarthor]

You know, when i was younger, I collected Marvel comics like mad. I have thousands of them. Nearly full runs on many Spider-Man titles, etc. Stopped reading in 2000, so I'm realizing that the comics moved on after i stopped but I don't think I have ever read an interesting comic storyline with Kang in it. I was really hoping it wasn't going to be Kang. When my wife asked me who he was, I just shrugged and said, "Some lame villain."

Loki was my least favorite of the three Disney+ shows so far. I liked how his arc ended in Infinity War, it stuck the landing, made Thor's emotions feel real, made us feel bad for a pretty solid villain. This show was just silly and the growth that we got felt forced, not real. I liked Sylvie a lot.

Completely off topic but if we were going to get spin off shows, I'd vote for a X-Files type show with FBI agent Jimmy Woo, Darcy, and Monica Rambeau solving mysteries of the week. ???

[Brock Beauchamp]

2 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

You know, when i was younger, I collected Marvel comics like mad. I have thousands of them. Nearly full runs on many Spider-Man titles, etc. Stopped reading in 2000, so I'm realizing that the comics moved on after i stopped but I don't think I have ever read an interesting comic storyline with Kang in it. I was really hoping it wasn't going to be Kang. When my wife asked me who he was, I just shrugged and said, "Some lame villain."

Loki was my least favorite of the three Disney+ shows so far. I liked how his arc ended in Infinity War, it stuck the landing, made Thor's emotions feel real, made us feel bad for a pretty solid villain. This show was just silly and the growth that we got felt forced, not real. I liked Sylvie a lot.

Completely off topic but if we were going to get spin off shows, I'd vote for a X-Files type show with FBI agent Jimmy Woo, Darcy, and Monica Rambeau solving mysteries of the week. ???

Interesting take. I liked Loki a lot, though I agree that the premise of Kang is often a lot cooler than the actual implementation of Kang. A lot of his storylines are pretty meh but the character himself is a really cool concept. Hopefully the MCU delivers where the comics often fail.