Mason: Correia expects to eat up innings for the Twins

[Brock Beauchamp]

I expect that eventually there will be some people who are wiling to discuss other aspects of this guy than just his de facto status as pariah.

 

Someday, fans might talk about him more than as a pariah. Probably not, but it's possible.

 

But whether you agree with it or not, Correia is the representation of an offseason where the Twins had $20m+ to spend, one of the worst pitching staffs in baseball, and came out of this offseason with more pitching question marks than they had 12 months ago when Baker, Pavano, and Liriano looked to anchor the rotation.

 

Oh, and they're also going into the season with Pedro Florimon at short so it's not as if they sacrificed pitching money to shore up their joke of a middle infield. You may not like it but fans have a right to be angry about this offseason and Kevin Correia embodies that outrage.

[lightfoot789]

I say we shut the whole thing down. Sorry TD - LoganJones feels all opinions are meaningless. So....we all just agree to de-bookmark, have a beer, and go our separate ways then? I think that's his point. Nothing else is "rational" to borrow a term.

 

Unless.....you see that he's stick-banging about stick-banging. And if stick-banging is meaningless then his stick banging about the stick-banging meaningless. Problem....solved?

 

I keep envisioning Randy Quaid and his buddies banging on thier drums in the outfeild bleachers. They are verbally bashing the Indians in the beginning of "Major League I". I hope all the fans don't start the season with the same outlook. Every team will have the same record come April 1st - Just ask those movie "Indians" or the 2012 Oakland A's. The question is - Was Randy Quaid a true fan or always looking for something to go wrong throughout the season? How many of you guys rival Randy Quaid?

[Alex]

I expect that eventually there will be some people who are wiling to discuss other aspects of this guy than just his de facto status as pariah.

 

When he was signed I noted that he has a tendency to avoid the balk.

[FrodaddyG]

Did we just have "Major League" referenced as an example of fanhood?

[Brock Beauchamp]

Did we just have "Major League" referenced as an example of fanhood?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3173[/ATTACH]

 

Now I want Burger King.

[jokin]

Someday, fans might talk about him more than as a pariah. Probably not, but it's possible.

 

But whether you agree with it or not, Correia is the representation of an offseason where the Twins had $20m+ to spend, one of the worst pitching staffs in baseball, and came out of this offseason with more pitching question marks than they had 12 months ago when Baker, Pavano, and Liriano looked to anchor the rotation.

 

Oh, and they're also going into the season with Pedro Florimon at short so it's not as if they sacrificed pitching money to shore up their joke of a middle infield. You may not like it but fans have a right to be angry about this offseason and Kevin Correia embodies that outrage.

 

Stick-banger

[LoganJones]

Someday, fans might talk about him more than as a pariah. Probably not, but it's possible.

 

But whether you agree with it or not, Correia is the representation of an offseason where the Twins had $20m+ to spend, one of the worst pitching staffs in baseball, and came out of this offseason with more pitching question marks than they had 12 months ago when Baker, Pavano, and Liriano looked to anchor the rotation.

 

Oh, and they're also going into the season with Pedro Florimon at short so it's not as if they sacrificed pitching money to shore up their joke of a middle infield. You may not like it but fans have a right to be angry about this offseason and Kevin Correia embodies that outrage.

 

I don't care if someone is angry about it. I don't see any point in being perpetually angry about baseball, so I don't want to talk baseball with someone who is.

 

One thing I find really interesting about Correia is in arguably his worst season ERA wise, 2010, he posted his highest K rate and walk rate. He also lost his brother. Up til the date where he died, the season was rolling along pretty well. Not great, but Sub 4 ERA. People can tend to get away from the impact these things can have on a player, since we routinely dehumanize them for our own enjoyment.

[jokin]

This coming from a Correia-apologist dating back almost a year now:

 

http://twinsdaily.com/archived-game-threads/635-spring-training-game-32-3-31-vs-pittsburgh.html#post6576

 

"Valencia double off the wall. Safe to say that Kevin Correia isn't exactly at the top of his game today, like he normally is."

 

I keed, I keed.

 

Wow, how good a Get was that? Waiting for response....

[FrodaddyG]

One thing I find really interesting about Correia is in arguably his worst season ERA wise, 2010, he posted his highest K rate and walk rate. He also lost his brother. Up til the date where he died, the season was rolling along pretty well. Not great, but Sub 4 ERA. People can tend to get away from the impact these things can have on a player, since we routinely dehumanize them for our own enjoyment.

So, a 6 start, 34 IP sample size is now something to be taken seriously? Just trying to wrap my brain around this sell job.

[jokin]

I don't care if someone is angry about it. I don't see any point in being perpetually angry about baseball, so I don't want to talk baseball with someone who is.

 

.

 

I think you've made it quite clear in the last couple dozen comments that you don't care. Yet you inexplicably continue "talking baseball"...

[TheLeviathan]

Someday, fans might talk about him more than as a pariah. Probably not, but it's possible.

 

I'd probably be less fixated on it if there weren't weekly attempts by the organization to sell us on why he was such a solid acquisition. If you keep jabbing your thumb in a wound, hard to take your mind off the wound.

[Physics Guy]

I don't care if someone is angry about it. I don't see any point in being perpetually angry about baseball, so I don't want to talk baseball with someone who is.

 

One thing I find really interesting about Correia is in arguably his worst season ERA wise, 2010, he posted his highest K rate and walk rate. He also lost his brother. Up til the date where he died, the season was rolling along pretty well. Not great, but Sub 4 ERA. People can tend to get away from the impact these things can have on a player, since we routinely dehumanize them for our own enjoyment.

 

Just give it up already. If you want to talk about baseball, talk about baseball and stop arguing with them. They want to vent, so let them vent and be done with it. Your arguing is just feeding the beast. At least half of this thread is about "stick banging".

 

I couldn't care less that the Twins spent 2/$10M for Correia since it shouldn't have precluded them from making other signings. I don't understand the complaint about wasting $10M for Correia since the Twins have plenty of cash that will be left on the table. I do care that they didn't use the rest of the money they should have available. I have little doubt Correia will be an improvement over much of what they trotted out to the mound last year and as such should not be the focus of anger.

 

I think there have been several references to Correia being the top signing. While this is probably true (Pelfrey may argue), my guess is that when Ryan traded Revere for Worley and May he felt that reduced the number of FA pitchers he needed to sign by one. Instead of signings, can we look at acquisitions? Isn't Worley a better acquisition than Correia?

[jokin]

I'd probably be less fixated on it if there weren't weekly attempts by the organization to sell us on why he was such a solid acquisition. If you keep jabbing your thumb in a wound, hard to take your mind off the wound.

 

Except it was just last week that even Ryan himself acknowledged the heat he was getting on the acquisition by backpedaling, downplaying and blame-shifting Correia's projected value as an acquired asset.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Instead of signings, can we look at acquisitions? Isn't Worley a better acquisition than Correia?

 

You'll be hard pressed to find someone on the board complaining about the trades.

 

The problem is that the Twins were a 95 loss team last season. One young pitcher who projects as a #3 at best, even if the trade was a very good one, is not going to take the sting away from the fact that the Twins will probably struggle to win 75 games this season.

 

And when the payroll is sitting at $80m in year four of a new stadium, that's a bitter pill to swallow.

[TheLeviathan]

Except it was just last week that even Ryan himself acknowledged the heat he was getting on the acquisition by backpedaling, downplaying and blame-shifting Correia's projected value as an acquired asset.

 

Source? When did he acknowledge that?

[snepp]

Worley more than likely will be a superior acquisition to Correia, and if the board's newest martyr had been paying a little bit more attention before attempting to throw half the forum under the bus, he would realize that not everyone is "perpetually angry" and that the board could barely contain its excitement over the Span/Revere deals.

[ThePuck]

Instead of signings, can we look at acquisitions? Isn't Worley a better acquisition than Correia?

 

If we expand it out to that, which is a good idea BTW, then you also have to factor in what we lost to get Worley.

 

So, which is better...two choices:

 

A: We got a pre-arbitration Worley with injury issues and who has never pitched 140 innings in his two seasons, while we lost Revere's defense and improving offense in the two hole.

 

B: Signing Correia to a 2 yr/10M contract.

 

P.S., yes May was acquired as well, but he's got to be pretty far down the RH prospect list if Gibson isn't even in the top 10 for RH pitching and yet still manages to sit at 49 overall. Additionally, it's a two window time frame we're looking at when comparing the two, May not even make the Twins till 2015.

 

Thoughts?

[Physics Guy]

Just a comparison of start of 2012 vs start of 2013 (using B.R. WAR from previous season):

 

2012

Baker 4.2 WAR (12 IP in Aug & Sept)

Pavano 1.8 WAR (35 years old, 262 H against, 4.1 K/9)

Liriano 0.6

Blackburn 0.5

Marquis 0.5

Total 6.6

 

2013

Diamond 2.2

Pelfrey 0.9 (TJ surgery during season)

Worley 0.7 (3.2 previous, arm trouble last)

Correia -0.1

Hendriks -1.2

Total 2.5

 

Not sure where I want to go with this, but I thought it was interesting. 2012 was heavily weighted by Baker's best year to date, but being hurt the last two months.

[TheLeviathan]

Worley more than likely will be a superior acquisition to Correia, and if the board's newest martyr had been paying a little bit more attention before attempting to throw half the forum under the bus, he would realize that not everyone is "perpetually angry" and that the board could barely contain its excitement over the Span/Revere deals.

 

I think this should be pointed out over and over again. People LOVED these deals, we got a ton of pages of praise out of it and there was a lot of conversation.

 

We're just having our wounds thumbed with articles like this.

[ThePuck]

Just a comparison of start of 2012 vs start of 2013 (using B.R. WAR from previous season):

 

2012

Baker 4.2 WAR (12 IP in Aug & Sept)

Pavano 1.8 WAR (35 years old, 262 H against, 4.1 K/9)

Liriano 0.6

Blackburn 0.5

Marquis 0.5

Total 6.6

 

2013

Diamond 2.2

Pelfrey 0.9 (TJ surgery during season)

Worley 0.7 (3.2 previous, arm trouble last)

Correia -0.1

Hendriks -1.2

Total 2.5

 

Not sure where I want to go with this, but I thought it was interesting. 2012 was heavily weighted by Baker's best year to date, but being hurt the last two months.

 

Is it 2014 already? :-)

[The Wise One]

Someday, fans might talk about him more than as a pariah. Probably not, but it's possible.

 

But whether you agree with it or not, Correia is the representation of an offseason where the Twins had $20m+ to spend, one of the worst pitching staffs in baseball, and came out of this offseason with more pitching question marks than they had 12 months ago when Baker, Pavano, and Liriano looked to anchor the rotation.

 

Oh, and they're also going into the season with Pedro Florimon at short so it's not as if they sacrificed pitching money to shore up their joke of a middle infield. You may not like it but fans have a right to be angry about this offseason and Kevin Correia embodies that outrage.

 

First off they weren't going to sign anyone other than somebody else's rejected 5/6th starter, or a bullpen guy part time starter looking to be a fulltime starter to get one last paycheck. Pohlad would never aprove the money for a starter that was going to cost them a lot of money. Ryan has said diferent times in interviews that Pohlad has to approve before he can sign a free agent.

You might have had optimism if any of those other types of pitchers had been signed. You might have seen an upside in one and was hopeful. This way you can get your mourning over with rather than have all of your hopes crushed on a beautiful May evenng when it becomes appearant why the other pitcher was available.

[Physics Guy]

If we expand it out to that, which is a good idea BTW, then you also have to factor in what we lost to get Worley.

 

So, which is better...two choices:

 

A: We got a pre-arbitration Worley with injury issues and who has never pitched 140 innings in his two seasons, while we lost Revere's defense and improving offense in the two hole.

 

B: Signing Correia to a 2 yr/10M contract.

 

P.S., yes May was acquired as well, but he's got to be pretty far down the RH prospect list if Gibson isn't even in the top 10 for RH pitching and yet still manages to sit at 49 overall.

 

Thoughts?

 

I choose A. My thoughts are that Hicks will replace what Revere brought and then some, but maybe not fully until 2014. I can live with it. I loved having Revere on the team, but I doubt his ceiling is much higher than where he was. I think Ryan traded him at the perfect time. Hicks has a significantly higher upside. He potentially is a better OF, gets on base as much and will hit for more power.

 

I am mostly happy with what Ryan has done, but I totally get that people aren't happy about the 2013 team. I wish he had been a little more patient and signed one of the many other pitchers that signed one year deals instead of signing Correia, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it. Is it possible that DeVries or Deduno could have put up the same numbers as KC? Sure it is, but $5M per year isn't a huge cost. I'm not going to cry for Pohlad if next year's $5M is a waste. It won't financially prevent us from signing other players.

[Physics Guy]

Hey look at this, we might actually be talking about baseball.

[ThePuck]

First off they weren't going to sign anyone other than somebody else's rejected 5/6th starter, or a bullpen guy part time starter looking to be a fulltime starter to get one last paycheck. Pohlad would never aprove the money for a starter that was going to cost them a lot of money. Ryan has said diferent times in interviews that Pohlad has to approve before he can sign a free agent.

You might have had optimism if any of those other types of pitchers had been signed. You might have seen an upside in one and was hopeful. This way you can get your mourning over with rather than have all of your hopes crushed on a beautiful May evenng when it becomes appearant why the other pitcher was available.

 

And Jim Pohlad has said he's pretty hands off when it comes to how his GM spends the money. Ryan said money wouldn't be an issue. You want to put the blame on the owners.

[TheLeviathan]

First off they weren't going to sign anyone other than somebody else's rejected 5/6th starter, or a bullpen guy part time starter looking to be a fulltime starter to get one last paycheck. Pohlad would never aprove the money for a starter that was going to cost them a lot of money.

 

Except the Pohlads and St. Peter are on the record as saying Ryan has full flexibility. Plus Ryan is on the record saying he doesn't like handing out big deals to pitchers. Trying to take the spotlight off of Ryan on this is ignorant of a lot of factors that are readily available via a google search.

[Brock Beauchamp]

First off they weren't going to sign anyone other than somebody else's rejected 5/6th starter, or a bullpen guy part time starter looking to be a fulltime starter to get one last paycheck. Pohlad would never aprove the money for a starter that was going to cost them a lot of money. Ryan has said diferent times in interviews that Pohlad has to approve before he can sign a free agent.

You might have had optimism if any of those other types of pitchers had been signed. You might have seen an upside in one and was hopeful. This way you can get your mourning over with rather than have all of your hopes crushed on a beautiful May evenng when it becomes appearant why the other pitcher was available.

 

Just two years ago, Pohlad agreed to a $110m payroll. There were plenty of reasons to think the payroll would be higher than $80m going into this season.

 

Yeah, I'm sure those other teams will regret signing decent pitchers instead of throwing $10m in the toilet. Just like the Twins were so excited about throwing $3m in the toilet last year with Jason Marquis.

 

But hey, at least the Marquis deal wasn't multi-year, right?

[ThePuck]

I choose A. My thoughts are that Hicks will replace what Revere brought and then some, but maybe not fully until 2014. I can live with it. I loved having Revere on the team, but I doubt his ceiling is much higher than where he was. I think Ryan traded him at the perfect time. Hicks has a significantly higher upside. He potentially is a better OF, gets on base as much and will hit for more power.

 

I am mostly happy with what Ryan has done, but I totally get that people aren't happy about the 2013 team. I wish he had been a little more patient and signed one of the many other pitchers that signed one year deals instead of signing Correia, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it. Is it possible that DeVries or Deduno could have put up the same numbers as KC? Sure it is, but $5M per year isn't a huge cost. I'm not going to cry for Pohlad if next year's $5M is a waste. It won't financially prevent us from signing other players.

 

Solid reasoning

[The Wise One]

Just a comparison of start of 2012 vs start of 2013 (using B.R. WAR from previous season):

 

2012

Baker 4.2 WAR (12 IP in Aug & Sept)

Pavano 1.8 WAR (35 years old, 262 H against, 4.1 K/9)

Liriano 0.6

Blackburn 0.5

Marquis 0.5

Total 6.6

 

2013

Diamond 2.2

Pelfrey 0.9 (TJ surgery during season)

Worley 0.7 (3.2 previous, arm trouble last)

Correia -0.1

Hendriks -1.2

Total 2.5

 

Not sure where I want to go with this, but I thought it was interesting. 2012 was heavily weighted by Baker's best year to date, but being hurt the last two months.

 

Nice manipulating of stats.

Is Hendricks really the 5th starter?

You use injury season data on the 2013 starters. Hello, why were they pitching so poorly? They were not healthy. When you look back at the TJ people, even the year before they get injured they perform at a level lower than they did the previous season. We do not know how good or poor of season any of thee guys are going to have. WAR is not a predictive tool. Take a look at Edwin Jackson. His WAR is all over the place. One season does not predict the next.

[Brock Beauchamp]

When you look back at the TJ people, even the year before they get injured they perform at a level lower than they did the previous season.

 

Uhhhhhhh.

 

Scott Baker.

 

Also, Edwin Jackson's last four seasons according to FG WAR:

 

3.9, 3.9, 3.6, 2.7. All over the place. Utter anarchy. Cats and dogs, living together.

[jokin]

Source? When did he acknowledge that?

 

Mackey: Low-risk or not, Twins are taking philosophical gambles | 1500 ESPN Twin Cities ? Minnesota Sports News & Opinion (Twins, Vikings, Wolves, Wild, Gophers) | Sportswire: Minnesota Twins

 

"Well, I always go back to the scouting evaluation, people that have seen him, and we saw him a lot with the Pirates, and certainly before that when he was with the Padres and the Giants," Ryan said recently. "We like his makeup, he has stuff, we had evaluators tell us and me in particular that this guy is better than the numbers."

 

 

 

Still, Ryan -- who runs every transaction by the Twins' internal statistical analysis department -- has elected to put more faith into the scouting evaluations of Correia than what we see on paper.

 

 

 

"Certainly he fell off there when they took him out of the rotation (in August) when they brought in Wandy Rodriguez, and that had a little bit to do with some of his (sub-par) numbers and lack of innings (last) year," Ryan said. "But I have a lot of faith and trust in people that have seen him, and they were adamant that this guy can help us. He's a little bit better than a fifth starter. ...

 

 

"I don't think we overpaid drastically in this situation. People that know him say that he's a good teammate and all that type of stuff, so you take all of that into consideration. We needed pitching badly, so we went and got him. ...