Reusse column on Sano

[KirbyDome89]

 

I have to assume you read Reusse's very recent piece that ripped on the front office?

 

I think it's fair to question whether Sano's weight or his fitness are a factor in his performance and in particular with his approach at the plate. I also think it's reasonable to think that if he was optimally fit, he'd be doing better. 

 

If someone put a Luger to your temple and said you have 30 seconds to spit out a theory as to why Sano has sucked so far this year, what would you postulate as the reason? And BTW, that was really brave on your part. Man, I would've stammered. I'd be dead.

If you're referring to the "This is how we baseball," article that was linked earlier then yes, I read it, and I touched on it at length. If there's a more recent article then I'm unaware of it. 

 

The problem is that the weight isn't discussed as "whether," it's affecting Sano, it's asserted that it is. Again, optimal is relative and the contention that Reusse or anybody else knows where that threshold lies is pure conjecture. 

 

He's played 20 games this season. In half of those he didn't suck. 

[Doubles]

This is more about his career trajectory than it is diagnosing his declined production.

 

Ever seen the movie ‘City Slickers’? When the three buddies are riding in the country and one is trying to explain to another how his VCR works?

[bird]

 

If you're referring to the "This is how we baseball," article that was linked earlier then yes, I read it, and I touched on it at length. If there's a more recent article then I'm unaware of it. 

 

The problem is that the weight isn't discussed as "whether," it's affecting Sano, it's asserted that it is. Again, optimal is relative and the contention that Reusse or anybody else knows where that threshold lies is pure conjecture. 

 

He's played 20 games this season. In half of those he didn't suck. 

 

I guess I missed you mentioning that Reusse article, sorry. We agree that Reusse is a little too "sure" about weight (fitness) being a prominent factor. Same with his unprovable "swing for the mountains" theory. I wouldn't label either as "pure" conjecture but as reasonable and logical conjecture, most likely supported by the observations and opinions of baseball men close to the scene.

 

Being horrible half the time? He's supposed to be better than that. He's been better than that in the past. Something's amiss, and it's no one else's doing but his.

 

In the absence of other reasonable theories that explain his too-frequent ineptitude, again, I'd much prefer the problem to be related to fitness than to, say, him not being fully engaged mentally or something. I find it ten times more objectionable when someone has a strong opinion about a player's work ethic, or his attitude, or his lifestyle choices, Reusse very much included.

[ewen21]

 

I guess I missed you mentioning that Reusse article, sorry. We agree that Reusse is a little too "sure" about weight (fitness) being a prominent factor. 

Yes, and by the same token I have come to find there are people who assert there isn't a connection (as in none at all since it "cannot be proven") between his weight and how he hits or fields.  These would be two ends of the spectrum.

[ewen21]

 

Ever seen the movie ‘City Slickers’? When the three buddies are riding in the country and one is trying to explain to another how his VCR works?

[ewen21]

Until Sano actually gets himself to a fitness level similar to or at least approaching a Giancarlo Stanton, Jose Abreu, Aaron Judge, etc,...etc...how can anyone (Sano included) say his physical state has no bearing on the way he plays baseball?

 

The..."he's just a big guy and that is that" deal is old with me.  I was one of those people not very long ago, but I am convinced there is something to it as far as his conditioning goes.  I see it through my own personal experience as a person who has drifted in and out of shape.  A lot can be accomplished and a lot can get undone in five months.  If Sano half-assed it for five months, ate and drank however he wanted that isn't a good thing.  While we don't have the luxury of surveillance anyone can see he isn't on par with many of his contemporaries with regard to conditioning.  Just take a look at some of the opponents we have faced in the last couple of weeks and see their young players.

[KirbyDome89]

 

I guess I missed you mentioning that Reusse article, sorry. We agree that Reusse is a little too "sure" about weight (fitness) being a prominent factor. Same with his unprovable "swing for the mountains" theory. I wouldn't label either as "pure" conjecture but as reasonable and logical conjecture, most likely supported by the observations and opinions of baseball men close to the scene.

 

Being horrible half the time? He's supposed to be better than that. He's been better than that in the past. Something's amiss, and it's no one else's doing but his.

 

In the absence of other reasonable theories that explain his too-frequent ineptitude, again, I'd much prefer the problem to be related to fitness than to, say, him not being fully engaged mentally or something. I find it ten times more objectionable when someone has a strong opinion about a player's work ethic, or his attitude, or his lifestyle choices, Reusse very much included.

Fair enough, I'm certain that Reusse is being fed some of this story from inside the organization. IMO the columns are more sensationalist than reasonable or logical. I don't doubt that Ruesse and others truly believe Sano's weight is the root of all the evil that plagues him, and I believe people should be allowed to question it. What I disagree with is the utter lack of objectivity in both Reusse's writing and some comments, coupled with character assessments, which I do consider to be pure conjecture.  

 

It's unfortunate that his bad stretch of games coincided with the first month of the season, and the pitching staff going up in flames. We agree, it would be nice if he didn't hit rough patches, and it's on him to avoid those, but at the same time I'm not going to get too worked up over 10 subpar games, especially early in the season.  

 

Isn't calling him out based on his perceived fitness a form of questioning his work ethic, attitude, and lifestyle choices? 

[ewen21]

 

Isn't calling him out based on his perceived fitness a form of questioning his work ethic, attitude, and lifestyle choices? 

Yes it is.

[OTPS300]

I don't know what should be done about Sano, so much talent that I hope can still be brought out.

Patrick Reusse is a contrarian, and his articles are meant to stir sports fans up, this thread is a prime example.

I would suggest those of you that base what you say about his articles to listen to him on his radio show during the week.

[mazeville]

 

It's easy to lose Reusse's "point" when he spends a chunk blaming a blogger, rambles around about Sano's friends and his weight, and sprinkles in performance issues.  

 

 

 

Where did Reusse blame the blogger? He said it was coincidental that Sano's deterioration came after that post. Frankly it was complimentary of the blogger. 

[mazeville]

 

If you're referring to the "This is how we baseball," article that was linked earlier then yes, I read it, and I touched on it at length. If there's a more recent article then I'm unaware of it. 

 

The problem is that the weight isn't discussed as "whether," it's affecting Sano, it's asserted that it is. Again, optimal is relative and the contention that Reusse or anybody else knows where that threshold lies is pure conjecture. 

 

He's played 20 games this season. In half of those he didn't suck. 

 

Please explain to me how you know weight ISN'T affecting Sano? The team is clearly concerned about his weight. His performance has been mediocre since the all-star break of last year and, frankly, he's had a cumulative one really good year and nearly two mediocre years in his short career.

 

If Sano was playing better he'd dodge the weight questions. Pretty simple stuff.

 

Regardless, the column was targeted mostly at Sano's swing, and not his weight. The weight is definitely a problem whether people on this thread like it or not, but as much as anything it's a sign of a person unwilling to take the steps necessary to ensure a long and healthy career, something we all want from the kid. 

[Richard Karn's Beard]

 

Byron Buxton has also had significantly less success in the majors and can't stay on the field.

 

We're talking about why Miguel Sano can't go back to being a huge success at the plate.  Buxton wishes he had a three month stretch like that.

You can't make people care.  Plunk millions in front of kids who have a less than fully developed brains and you can get a variety of outcomes.  Buxton wants to be great.  You can see it in how he plays.  Sano does not want to be great.  If he did want to be great you'd see a different product on the field.  You'd see a different body and you'd see different stats.  You think its bad now?  Wait until he gets a few years older and his body starts wearing down even more.  So to answer the question as to "why he can't go back to being successful at the plate"...you know the answer.  He doesn't take care of himself physically.  I'd be selling Sano high the first chance I got.  If that chance ever comes along again.  

 

It's like....we're all waiting for the next Kirby to come along and thrill us with his combined passion and talent for the game.  We might be waiting a long time for that.  But it's fun to talk about.  

 

Have a great Monday!

[TheLeviathan]

I don't think I know anywhere near that much about Byron Buxton or Miguel Sano by watching them on TV or by sitting in the stands.  To make bold claims like that about who they are as a person just doesn't sit well with me.

 

Though I appreciate how direct you are about it.  Most of the teeth gnashing in threads like this is how many people are thinking the same thing, but are hiding behind other arguments to say it.  

[Doubles]

 

I don't think I know anywhere near that much about Byron Buxton or Miguel Sano by watching them on TV or by sitting in the stands.  To make bold claims like that about who they are as a person just doesn't sit well with me.

 

Though I appreciate how direct you are about it.  Most of the teeth gnashing in threads like this is how many people are thinking the same thing, but are hiding behind other arguments to say it.  

 

I would gladly back off my stance that Sano needs to lose weight if he would noticeably slim down and stay in the lineup.  As has been noted, he hasn't reached 500 plate appearances since 2013 when he was in the minors.  Doesn't there come a time when Sano has to make some sort of revelation to himself along the lines of, "Ya know this approach I've taken the last several years really isn't working out very well for me.  Maybe it's high time I make some changes"?  

 

 

 

[USAFChief]

https://www.twincities.com/2018/05/02/twins-boss-derek-falvey-optimistic-but-recent-skid-is-certainly-disappointing/

 

Not sure if anyone/everyone has seen this. Pioneer Press piece with Falvey.

 

Sano comes up.

 

Weight/fitness seems to be on everyone's radar.

[TheLeviathan]

I appreciate what Falvey said.  It sounds like the team is less concerned about particular weight numbers but on having his body ready to play.

 

Smart and fair.

[Parker Hageman]

 

Where did Reusse blame the blogger? He said it was coincidental that Sano's deterioration came after that post. Frankly it was complimentary of the blogger. 

 

I have a name, you know.

[ashbury]

I would gladly back off my stance that Sano needs to lose weight if he would noticeably slim down and stay in the lineup.

Fair. I will likewise back off my stance that the Twins need to win the World Series, if they would just win the World Series and take part in the parade afterward.

[KirbyDome89]

 

Please explain to me how you know weight ISN'T affecting Sano? The team is clearly concerned about his weight. His performance has been mediocre since the all-star break of last year and, frankly, he's had a cumulative one really good year and nearly two mediocre years in his short career.

 

If Sano was playing better he'd dodge the weight questions. Pretty simple stuff.

 

Regardless, the column was targeted mostly at Sano's swing, and not his weight. The weight is definitely a problem whether people on this thread like it or not, but as much as anything it's a sign of a person unwilling to take the steps necessary to ensure a long and healthy career, something we all want from the kid. 

That isn't what I've said, and you're asking me to prove a negative, which is impossible in this situation. He played only 30 games in the second half last year before wrecking his shin. He's played 20 games this season. We're talking about, in total, a quarter of a season, and he hasn't been terrible for all 50+ games during that stretch. Can we at least be a little honest about the sample size we're working with? He certainly wasn't mediocre compared to the rest of the league in 16' and I wouldn't call an ASG appearance last year mediocre either. 

 

The column was targeted at his psyche, i.e. his mental makeup, and the weight was an extension of that. Why is it that calling for a pause on the "Weight is clearly affecting Sano's play," claim requires evidence but making the absolutist claim does not? 

[USAFChief]

 

I appreciate what Falvey said.  It sounds like the team is less concerned about particular weight numbers but on having his body ready to play.

 

Smart and fair.

Also fair to say Falvey says they don't think Sano currently has his body ready to play.

 

And then he specifically mentions correcting that may correlate with weight change over time.

 

He also mentions a dietitian as part of the plan going forward.

 

I mean, short of coming out and saying "he's overweight," which he's understandably not going to do, how much clearer could he possibly be?

 

 

[Doubles]

 

Fair. I will likewise back off my stance that the Twins need to win the World Series, if they would just win the World Series and take part in the parade afterward.

Fair retort to a stupid line of posting.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Also fair to say Falvey says they don't think Sano currently has his body ready to play.

 

And then he specifically mentions correcting that may correlate with weight change over time.

 

He also mentions a dietitian as part of the plan going forward.

 

I mean, short of coming out and saying "he's overweight," which he's understandably not going to do, how much clearer could he possibly be?

 

Sure, but he also didn't seem to have his hair on fire either.  They probably feel like he needs to be in better playing shape, which is not the same as a bi-monthly gasp-fest about Miguel being "X weight we pulled out of thin air". 

[mazeville]

 

I have a name, you know.

 

What is it? 

[mazeville]

 

That isn't what I've said, and you're asking me to prove a negative, which is impossible in this situation. He played only 30 games in the second half last year before wrecking his shin. He's played 20 games this season. We're talking about, in total, a quarter of a season, and he hasn't been terrible for all 50+ games during that stretch. Can we at least be a little honest about the sample size we're working with? He certainly wasn't mediocre compared to the rest of the league in 16' and I wouldn't call an ASG appearance last year mediocre either. 

 

The column was targeted at his psyche, i.e. his mental makeup, and the weight was an extension of that. Why is it that calling for a pause on the "Weight is clearly affecting Sano's play," claim requires evidence but making the absolutist claim does not? 

 

Because it's part of the situation, that's why. It's a legitimate question. His weight is going up, despite the Twins urging him to improve his conditioning. He's been injured each of the past three years. And his performance has, but for one really good half season, not approached the promise he had when he first came up. 

 

The evidence all stacks up to a larger Sano. Simply saying, "We don't know it's a problem, therefore it must not be a problem" is hardly the correct response, either. 

 

As for the short sample size, I beg to differ, because you seem to be forgetting about the 100+ mediocre games he had in 2016. Personally, I chalked that up to the pathetic decision to have him play outfield. But the last 50 games seem to be proving that wrong. 

[KirbyDome89]

 

Because it's part of the situation, that's why. It's a legitimate question. His weight is going up, despite the Twins urging him to improve his conditioning. He's been injured each of the past three years. And his performance has, but for one really good half season, not approached the promise he had when he first came up. 

 

The evidence all stacks up to a larger Sano. Simply saying, "We don't know it's a problem, therefore it must not be a problem" is hardly the correct response, either. 

 

As for the short sample size, I beg to differ, because you seem to be forgetting about the 100+ mediocre games he had in 2016. Personally, I chalked that up to the pathetic decision to have him play outfield. But the last 50 games seem to be proving that wrong. 

It isn't being questioned though, it's being stated as fact. That's the issue. Nobody knows how his weight is fluctuating, the degree to which it affects his performance, or what constitutes a agreeable level of fitness. Even amongst those who are certain his weight is the root cause of all issues there isn't consensus on how much he should weigh and/or what his body should look like. I would hardly consider any evidence to be stacked up. I haven't spoken in any absolute terms, in fact it's precisely what I've pushed back against. I acknowledge that his weight/fitness very well could be part of the problem, but there's a world of difference between accepting that and representing it as absolute truth. IMO his weight has been used rather irresponsibly as a catch all. 

 

He fouled a ball off his shin and fractured it so severely he needed a titanium rod inserted. That's conveniently being lumped in with "injury due to weight." Again, distinction is important.  

 

If you're upset that he isn't consistently a 150+ OPS guy I can't tell you not to be, all I can say is that maybe it's time to readjust expectations. I can understand the angst over him not living up to the hype, especially after the torrid rookie season, but I also think we need to be realistic about criticism. When I look at his 16' season I see offensive numbers that fall in the range of a solid starter. Did we expect more? Yes, but again, what is the measuring stick? IMO people get so caught up in the fact that he isn't 2015 Sano, that they lose perspective of his actual contribution. 

[ewen21]

Let me make it perfectly clear that the weight isn't as much of an issue as the conditioning.  Thrylos used the example of Aaron Judge.  He is actually listed 282lbs.  I wouldn't mind Sano being the weight he is now if he were built like Judge or Stanton.  The difference is, he is starting to look like Delmon Young.

 

Finally, this stuff about "we don't know that he doesn't work hard during the off season" doesn't wash with me.  I look at the guy and I don't see a guy who looks all that fit for the job he is supposed to do.  If he were a lineman in the NFL that would be something else.  He should be built more like a tight end than a lineman.  Every body tells a story.  If any of you saw me and then saw me five months later after I spent that time working out, training meaningfully and eating right I would look different to you than if I ate anything I wanted and worked out 3 or 4 days a week.

 

The truth is people CAN tell if guys do meaningful off season conditioning from those who don't.  I can't understand why that concept is difficult for some to grasp.

[ewen21]

 

It isn't being questioned though, it's being stated as fact. That's the issue. Nobody knows how his weight is fluctuating, the degree to which it affects his performance, or what constitutes a agreeable level of fitness. Even amongst those who are certain his weight is the root cause of all issues there isn't consensus on how much he should weigh and/or what his body should look like. I would hardly consider any evidence to be stacked up. I haven't spoken in any absolute terms, in fact it's precisely what I've pushed back against. I acknowledge that his weight/fitness very well could be part of the problem, but there's a world of difference between accepting that and representing it as absolute truth. IMO his weight has been used rather irresponsibly as a catch all. 

 

He fouled a ball off his shin and fractured it so severely he needed a titanium rod inserted. That's conveniently being lumped in with "injury due to weight." Again, distinction is important.  

 

If you're upset that he isn't consistently a 150+ OPS guy I can't tell you not to be, all I can say is that maybe it's time to readjust expectations. I can understand the angst over him not living up to the hype, especially after the torrid rookie season, but I also think we need to be realistic about criticism. When I look at his 16' season I see offensive numbers that fall in the range of a solid starter. Did we expect more? Yes, but again, what is the measuring stick? IMO people get so caught up in the fact that he isn't 2015 Sano, that they lose perspective of his actual contribution. 

As far as the first paragraph goes, you are overthinking and trying to hard to give a guy the benefit of the doubt.  This is the big boy league where they play for pay.  Why is it that someone needs to break out pie charts, slide rules and cite medical journals to determine how much EXACTLY this affects his play.  DO you believe a player's conditioning has NO EFFECT on performance?  

 

 

[ewen21]

 

.The evidence all stacks up to a larger Sano. Simply saying, "We don't know it's a problem, therefore it must not be a problem" is hardly the correct response, either. 

 

As for the short sample size, I beg to differ, because you seem to be forgetting about the 100+ mediocre games he had in 2016. Personally, I chalked that up to the pathetic decision to have him play outfield. But the last 50 games seem to be proving that wrong. 

 

Amen to the underlined.  That is essentially saying, "Let Miguel be Miguel"

I this the proscribed approach that the Twins should take?

 

Just let him do what he does because that is just how he is?

[Doubles]

 

If you're upset that he isn't consistently a 150+ OPS guy I can't tell you not to be, all I can say is that maybe it's time to readjust expectations.

I'm upset he isn't a 150+ GP guy

[USAFChief]

Someone ISN'T disappointed he hasn't been a 150 OPS+ guy?

 

Someone wasn't hoping for that?

 

I was hoping for Miguel Cabrera.

 

I thought most everyone was.