GOT season six (spoilers galore)

[jimmer]

 

I can't imagine he sits on the sideline.  For one, he's banking on marrying Sansa and becoming the Warden of the North.  And for two, he knows he has to win her trust back and helping her win back her home and avenge her family is the only thing he has left.  (He'd also have a chance to avenge his true love as well)

 

I think the Vale joins the fray and turns the tide of a tight contest, routing the Bolton forces, and establishing at least a decent size army that can stand up to the coming invasion from the North.

 

Speaking of which, anyone else think Jon's comment to Edd about "don't knock it down while I'm gone" might have been foreshadowing for one of the climaxes of the season? 

What happens when/if he finds out Jon was legitimized by Rob (assuming he doesn't know already)? Then it wouldn't matter whether he married Sansa or not, he wouldn't be Warden of the North.  Does he still help her?

 

BTW, all of what had happened is really his fault.  He got it rolling.  If he wants to blame someone for Kat's death, he needs to look in the mirror.

[TheLeviathan]

 

What happens when/if he finds out Jon was legitimized by Rob (assuming he doesn't know already)? Then it wouldn't matter whether he married Sansa or not, he wouldn't be Warden of the North.  Does he still help her?

 

BTW, all of what had happened is really his fault.  He got it rolling.  If he wants to blame someone for Kat's death, he needs to look in the mirror.

 

Totally agree.  I'm curious - does anyone know Jon was legitimized?  Was that done in the presence of some of the heads of the northern houses?

[jimmer]

 

Totally agree.  I'm curious - does anyone know Jon was legitimized?  Was that done in the presence of some of the heads of the northern houses?

It was done in front of several Lords.  Just don't know what happened with the decree itself.

[TheLeviathan]

 

It was done in front of several Lords.  Just don't know what happened with the decree itself.

 

Well, the other issue is that as long as Rickon is alive I believe Jon would still be second in line for the title.  But he may end up being an acting leader in the North regardless because he's the one with the support of Sansa (thus the Vale), the Wildlings, the other Northern houses, and the Watch.  

 

Then what happens here in King's Landing has a big impact on everything.  I have to imagine that eventually the Tyrells and Lannisters are at each other's throats.  

[Brock Beauchamp]

That last episode brought me back into the series in a big way.

 

Dany is once again a powerful leader. To top it off, the way she handled Jorah's departure was rewarding from a viewer aspect. Loads of maturity, strength, and not even a little bit of whining. All around good stuff.

 

Sansa has finally turned into a character I don't want to see torn apart by Dire Wolves. She's proactively taking on the situation and I want to see more of it. I've never said that about Sansa in any incarnation.

 

Hodor's death, while gut-wrenching to watch, was extremely satisfying. Finally, someone died the death of a real hero and the way Martin circled back with the character couldn't have been handled any better.

 

But Bran is kind of a dick for it.

 

Hell, I'm even interested in what's happening on the Iron Islands right now. What? I ****ing hate the Iron Islands.

 

I really want to watch more of the series right now, something I haven't said in at least two years, maybe three.

[Brock Beauchamp]

One additional point to note is that the series is not taking the approach I feared they might take... Wrapping up a chaotic series with a deus ex machina in the last half season (or, even worse, the final two episodes).

 

The White Queen(s) are finally in play on the chessboard. We're still at least 20-25 episodes from the show finale and the players we want to see win (though which one will win is very much up in the air) are setting themselves up to go on the offensive instead of retreating into a corner.

 

Retreating into a corner is fine and it's a solid basis of storytelling but the "good" characters have spent 75% of the series retreating and hiding. That stops becoming intriguing storytelling and turns into a slog of misery and false-starts. It's not a fun experience.

 

I'm excited to see what comes next.

[TheLeviathan]

I think what makes this so satisfying is that for so long it seems like we weren't progressing.  That every step forward took two steps back.  And there were some good narrative elements to that, but after awhile the series has really slowed to the point of exhaustion.

 

This season has made all of that patience pay off and it's been more rewarding than I could have thought.  It feels a bit rushed in spots, but with this series I'll gladly take that over the slog the books have been stuck in for some 10-20 years.  (or whatever it's been)

[Brock Beauchamp]

It's also no coincidence the series became much more compelling the moment it forgot Dorne existed at all.

 

It's possible that Dorne still has a role to play in the series but the smaller that role becomes, the better off the story is for it.

 

The same goes for Highgarden. It's fine to include key players from those corners of the world but we don't need to see what actually transpires in those corners. They're bit players; pawns to be called upon to further the aspirations of the characters we want to watch. Margaery is fine but I want to see Margaery operate out of King's Landing with the implied force of Highgarden behind her command. I don't give a damn about Highgarden itself. The place is irrelevant.

 

That was one of the biggest mis-steps Martin made with the series. The more he strayed into the world and away from the story, the less interest I had in learning more about the world.

 

The show has done a commendable job of streamlining that a bit.

[gunnarthor]

 

 

That was one of the biggest mis-steps Martin made with the series. The more he strayed into the world and away from the story, the less interest I had in learning more about the world.

 

The show has done a commendable job of streamlining that a bit.

I disagree about the book criticism.  I think that's one of the things that separates it from other fantasy world stuff.  The amount of information and characters added to the story are, in my view, fantastic.  There are tons of books out there with the hero fighting the supernatural evil with dragons.  This doesn't have to be one of those.  So I enjoyed reading Quentin's journey and the possible deceit of the maesters.  It adds a lot.  (That said, it would work a lot better if Martin could start pumping out books again).  

 

But for the TV show, I think the show runners have done a nice job streamlining it to a working show.  It's not the books, which is fine.  One blog I read said it was, at this point, just really well written fan fiction with the important facts given to it by Martin.  That seems accurate.  

 

Anyhow, the show has given us some pretty darn impressive visuals - esp north of the wall. Both this episode and Hardhome were amazing White Walker episodes.

[TheLeviathan]

The problem with the pro-detours argument about the books is that we know Martin had a choice between fast forwarding five years to what will happen to the core characters that matter most or filling in those years. He chose not to fast forward. But that means, almost definitionally, that much of the last two books are filler.

 

You are welcome to have enjoyed the filler, but that's what it was. The TV show rightfully cut that and Martin should have significantly edited it. What the show is doing is not fan fic, it's just a straight adaptation of the core narrative. Something it could do without filler because they started with characters closet to 18 than 8. That was a massive mistake at the onset that the show smartly avoided and it has made for a better narrative.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

The problem with the pro-detours argument about the books is that we know Martin had a choice between fast forwarding five years to what will happen to the core characters that matter most or filling in those years. He chose not to fast forward. But that means, almost definitionally, that much of the last two books are filler.

You are welcome to have enjoyed the filler, but that's what it was. The TV show rightfully cut that and Martin should have significantly edited it. What the show is doing is not fan fic, it's just a straight adaptation of the core narrative. Something it could do without filler because they started with characters closet to 18 than 8. That was a massive mistake at the onset that the show smartly avoided and it has made for a better narrative.

Yep, exactly. If a story spends close to 2,000 pages leading the reader into dead ends (Renly, Stannis, Caitlyn, probably Dorne... too many to list, really) or circular nothingness (Sansa, Arya, a few others), there's something fundamentally wrong with the story. Books 1-3 of the series bait us with intriguing events and characters while books 4-5 switch on us and tell stories largely outside the realm of books 1-3.

 

Not that those stories shouldn't or can't be told... But they don't fit into this particular story because, in the end, they provide no real advancement of the things most readers care about. As an audience, our capacity to retain information and feel empathy has its limits. Martin went well beyond those limits, losing us in an immense world (and not in a good way) and continually introducing characters who only reminded us we weren't reading about the characters we cared about. It led most people I know to fatigue, then exhaustion, and finally anger because the books were no longer delivering on promises made in the first few thousand pages (and audience trust is a real thing that should never be ignored).

 

If Martin wanted to tell a more substantive story about Dorne or Easteros, there is nothing preventing him from doing so in another series.

[TheLeviathan]

Or write some sort of compendium.  Or, hell, cut about 70 pages alone telling us what the Mormonts serve for dinner.

 

Imagine if the show had tried to do some of this grand world building.  I can't imagine how thrilling cut-aways to gravy would be....

[gunnarthor]

Dang - can't figure out how to paste the cartoon but go to this link: 

 

http://heavy.com/entertainment/2016/05/hodor-memes-game-of-thrones-hold-the-door-reactions-tweets-photos-s06e05/2/

 

 

[jimmer]

Another awesome episode!

[TheLeviathan]

Yeah, cold hands is revealed as expected, the Freys are back, and a good Tarley reunion to boot.

 

I wonder if Littlefingers play is for the Vale to save the Blackfish.

[jimmer]

Has Arya figured out how to become someone?  If so, wouldn't it be nice if she became that girl next to Walder who looked around Arya's size?

 

Oh, something to ponder, is the Waif actually Sirio?

[TheLeviathan]

Arya's story is my biggest head scratcher. So much importance placed on the faceless men and she accomplished nothing but getting bear up for awhile before quitting.

 

I continue to struggle with her importance thematically or for the story.

[Mike Sixel]

Still don't know what is happening long term with Arya. But at least she showed she isn't an assassin for hire, so that's good.

 

Interesting that they mentioned the brotherhood w/o banners. I thought maybe they just dropped that line. 

 

All in all, the episode contained surprises for me, which was nice. I was not expecting the queen's conversion to the faith to be so real (even if it isn't, the boy king's is).

[TheLeviathan]

I think she's playing the long game with the Faith for her brothers sake. Her plot will be interesting to watch unfold.

[Brock Beauchamp]

A few twists in the episode, for sure... Finally seeing what happened to Benjen (sp?) was nice. Going back to the Frey's and the Riverrun situation is also nice.

 

Also confused about Arya but her story arc has been one of the more interesting aspects of the world (excepting her two year circle of wandering with the Hound) so I'll let it take me where it's going before saying anything.

 

Not sold on the Margerie conversion at all. Maybe it will be explained going forward but right now, it doesn't make a lot of sense. Yes, Margerie broke the hold of the Lannisters over the throne but she also broke the hold of her own house, which I *guess* can be an acceptable strategy but doesn't make a lot of sense. I'd rather deal with the Lannisters and break them in my own time than be forced to deal with the continued presence of the Sparrow, an equally dangerous but far more unpredictable foe.

[Mike Sixel]

Oh, I don't think Margery's conversion is real, but I wasn't expecting anyone else to buy it either. Not sure if the Sparrow buys it, or is just going with it.

 

Also not sure what Margery thinks this is going to do, to help with anything, other than maybe getting out of her walk and helping her brother.

[PseudoSABR]

I think Margery was surprised by the show of force, but she had already sown her fake-allegiance to High Sparrow; I think her primary concern is her brother living through this ordeal, and a battle might not have produced that result.   --This whole plot line has become rather convoluted to me; and just disappointing to see High Sparrow's rhetoric swoop up the baby King. 

 

I'm so glad Arya has rebuffed the faceless men; the less that she is a Stark, the less invested I am in her story.   This storyline, seemingly like all of Arya's, needlessly stretched on far too long.   Clearly, she's a better fighter for having served with the faceless men, but I hope she's garnered some of their other abilities as well.

 

Riverrun looks interesting what with the Freys, Jamie Lannister, Blackfish, and Brienne.  I wonder if the season will end with a batter there instead of at Winterfell, like I had assumed.  Where once this season's plot was moving at break-neck speed, is there still time (four episodes) for Sansa and Jon to raise an army?  That would need to get sorted out pretty-right quick.

[Mike Sixel]

In some ways, they seem to be rushing a lot of things.....lots happening "fast" in the background.

 

In some ways, some stories seem to drag and take up a lot of screen time (Arya's, for example. The Arya story could literally be another tv show at this point.......).

[TheLeviathan]

I would agree that we're teetering on "rushed" right now.

 

It looks like next week is when Sansa/Jon/Davos get their army together, but I'm starting to wonder if the pacing won't become too fast.  The next few episodes are going to be very interesting.

[gunnarthor]

Agree with others that the Arya storyline is strange.  I have no idea what will happen to her.  My guess was that she was going to be ordered by the Faceless Men to kill her brother but now that's she left them - and is being pursued by them - that's out.  She's easily my favorite character in the books but I have no idea how her story arc fits into this.  

 

Nice to see Dany on dragon back but they should have CGI'd in more Dorthraki troops.  It looked a little lame. 

 

I assume Jaimie is going to break the siege of Riverrun sort of like he did in the books - with the Freys hopelessly threatening Edmure's life - and taking some hostages for the crown and the Vale troops go north.  But obviously the Blackfish's return means something so maybe Briene joins them and kills Walder Frey?  

 

Fun season so far.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Nice to see Dany on dragon back but they should have CGI'd in more Dorthraki troops.  It looked a little lame. 

 

I thought the same thing as that scene was happening.  Don't pan out if you're not going to show a massive army, otherwise it looks silly.

 

Maybe the Faceless Men pursuing Arya leads them over to Westeros and into the conflict with the White Walkers?

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Oh, I don't think Margery's conversion is real, but I wasn't expecting anyone else to buy it either. Not sure if the Sparrow buys it, or is just going with it.

 

Also not sure what Margery thinks this is going to do, to help with anything, other than maybe getting out of her walk and helping her brother.

Oh, to be clear, I don't think her conversion is real at all, I'm more curious why she didn't reverse course when given the opportunity. That seems a bit like intrigue for intrigue's sake. She already has Tommen under her thumb and would return to being Queen. Bonus points for eliminating the religious whackjob who imprisoned her.

[TheLeviathan]

Maybe she was banking on her grandmother figuring things out, but once Cersei was forced on her shame walk she realized she'd have  to do things herself.  That is when her approach changed.  Well, that and seeing how bad things were for Loras.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Maybe she was banking on her grandmother figuring things out, but once Cersei was forced on her shame walk she realized she'd have  to do things herself.  That is when her approach changed.  Well, that and seeing how bad things were for Loras.

Sure. It's easy enough for the writers to walk their way out of the situation but right now, it just seems a bit odd and forced.

 

But the story is far from over so we'll see how it all pans out.

[gunnarthor]

I think tonight's episode was probably the weakest of the season - part of that is that I just don't think the actress playing Margaery Tyrell is very good and giving her scenes with much more accomplished actors like Pryce and Diana Rigg just makes it worse.  But the scenes in the North seem like we're more or less just waiting for the big battle (which we are) but nothing is really happening.

 

Nice to see the Hound again but that was about the one bright spot.