Is the Affiliation Dance about to begin?

[DaveW]

Not too sure about this. I think it is less than 60 miles from Omaha to Lincoln. That seems pretty close' date=' especially for the mid-west market. Not to say it couldn't support it (I have never been there). Seems pretty tight in proximity though.[/quote']

 

Yeah 60 miles sounds about right, I always remembered it being an hour+ when I was a kid and there being nothing in between, though I haven't been back in 15 years or so. Will people really travel 60 miles or so to see minor league baseball?

 

Lincoln does have a decent population 250k, so I think they could handle a minor league club, they support minor league hockey and of course College football quite a bit! The college baseball team draws pretty nicely as well.

 

Not saying they need a AAA team, just suprised there hasn't been a team pop up as I think the city would support them well.

[neli21]

A low level affiliate in Duluth would be nice but I don't think the numbers would work. Yes, there is the UMD students to draw from, but classes are usually out during the summer. I have never attended a Huskies game, but I have to question the 1000 fans per game number. With those numbers you would see the nearby parking lots filled more often. During the Dukes most recent tenure here they had attendance problems which led the team to move to Indiana. I remember a playoff game with attendance under 400. While the Huskies have survived here for a few years, these are unpaid college eligible players, not paid players with a payroll needing to be supported by attendance. The 100 year old Wade Stadium is a nice vintage park but is in need of major upgrades to support a MLB affiliate. There has been talk since professional baseball returned in the 1990's to upgrade this park, but the local money is not there to fix it. While the field itself has always been maintained, the seating, concessions and restrooms are not what you would expect to find in a MLB affiliate stadium.

I would love to see a team here. But I just can't see it happening.

http://northwoods.bbstats.pointstreak.com/attendance.html?leagueid=120&seasonid=12218

 

I have been around UMD for 8 years - long enough to know that thousands of students take summer classes each year. They also work jobs on and off-campus. Its not enough to fill the stadium even if each one were to go to every game, but the point stands that there is a strong existing fan base there year-round. The weather argument that some people will make most comes into play in April and September, but the academic year runs through May and resumes again in time for the playoffs.

 

I am not well versed on the payroll situations for minor league players, but I had always assumed that they are all paid by the major league team. From what I've read, since the MLB has absorbed the minor leagues the affiliates haven't operated for the purposes of sustaining on their own. The MLB teams support them and the affiliates exist for the sole purpose of better developing prospects to benefit the major league cash cow. Bill James actually wrote an interesting article regarding MiLB reorganization on his website, and that article was published again in his book "Solid Fool's Gold". I thought he went way too far with his ideas, specifically on the rules he wanted to put in place to limit the oversight of MLB affiliates, but I trust his knowledge on the history of the minor leagues and their current purpose.

 

If that wasn't the case you wouldn't have teams like the Snappers drawing under 900 a game even the teams top prospect and another top 3-5 organizational prospect starting the year there. They would be long gone. I think we are all in agreement that it shouldn't have to be that way. I'm simply arguing that Duluth, among other places, would be a better option in that respect that Beloit. Barring major league realignment throughout the minor leagues, the Midwest League is also the only current realistic option (geographically speaking) if a Twins affiliate were to come to this state.

[jtrinaldi]

Duluth's closest drive would be 6 hours....that is not happening. The Midwest league is perfectly set up, so no reason to change it (other than affiliate change)

[70charger]

Bill James actually wrote an interesting article regarding MiLB reorganization on his website, and that article was published again in his book "Solid Fool's Gold". I thought he went way too far with his ideas, specifically on the rules he wanted to put in place to limit the oversight of MLB affiliates, but I trust his knowledge on the history of the minor leagues and their current purpose.

Googled; couldn't find. I'm not ready to buy the book. Do you happen to have a link to the article?

[IdahoPilgrim]

http://northwoods.bbstats.pointstreak.com/attendance.html?leagueid=120&seasonid=12218

 

 

I am not well versed on the payroll situations for minor league players, but I had always assumed that they are all paid by the major league team. From what I've read, since the MLB has absorbed the minor leagues the affiliates haven't operated for the purposes of sustaining on their own. The MLB teams support them and the affiliates exist for the sole purpose of better developing prospects to benefit the major league cash cow.

 

That's not entirely true. Yes, the salaries of the players and coaching/training staff are all paid by the parent club, but the cost of putting on the games (ushers, support staff, concessions) are paid by the minor league club, who also keep the gate revenue and any media rights. Most minor league clubs are owned by those who seek to make money from them, just as the major league club owners seek to make money (at least most of them). That's why they spend so much time thinking up promotions and trying to improve the game-day experience, because they want repeat customers. When I was in central Illinois I attended a lunch at which the owner of the Peoria Chiefs (low-A affiliate of St. Louis at the time) gave a good description of how the relationship with the parent club worked. That's why minor league team owners get uneasy/annoyed when the players sent by the parent have several losing seasons in a row - that depresses attendance and cuts into the revenue/profits of the local club owner.

 

There has been a growing trend for major league clubs to buy/own their own affiliates (I think the Atlanta Braves own all of theirs) and that may one day become the norm, but it's not yet.

[snepp]

Sioux Falls has the independent League Canaries.

They're the Pheasants now.

[Bark's Lounge]

Yeah 60 miles sounds about right, I always remembered it being an hour+ when I was a kid and there being nothing in between, though I haven't been back in 15 years or so. Will people really travel 60 miles or so to see minor league baseball?

 

Lincoln does have a decent population 250k, so I think they could handle a minor league club, they support minor league hockey and of course College football quite a bit! The college baseball team draws pretty nicely as well.

 

Not saying they need a AAA team, just suprised there hasn't been a team pop up as I think the city would support them well.

I definitely agree they could probably support a minor league team. AAA might be a stretch and Omaha irritant, but I would imagine they could probably tote a AA club. I might not be correct, but region wise, doesn't Springfield, MO and Wichita, KS have AA clubs? They have roughly a 250-500K population. With Omaha being pretty baseball rich, you would think it has spread somewhat to Lincoln... they must like their baseball.

[neli21]

Googled; couldn't find. I'm not ready to buy the book. Do you happen to have a link to the article?

Sorry, no link. The article was titled "The Minor League Pyramid", but all I've been able to find online is links referencing. It is essentially about how the major league teams have taken over minor league baseball and changed it in ways that benefits nobody. The title is derived from the pre-1950's model, a more ideal structure, where there are less teams in AAA than there are in AA, less teams in AA than there are in A ball, etc. There are more players that are realistically at a single A level than there are players at a AAA level, so why should each team have just one team at each level? It often causes teams to pigeon-hole certain players for certain levels based less on their abilities than on organizational depth. A pyramid model would allow the best players to naturally rise through the system.

 

It is hard for me to disagree with that, but his proposals for changes go overboard. He suggested to expand minor leagues to the point where each team has 2 affiliates at the highest level, 4 at the next, 6 at the next, and then 8 at the bottom. I think 1, 2, 3, 4 would be more realistic. Among other things, he also suggests that MLB teams relinquish control of a large chunk of the players on their affiliates' roster, giving the minor league teams room for personnel management, and requiring players to stay in the minor leagues for at least three seasons.

 

The book was worth the read and covered a lot of different topics, but too new to find for cheap on sites like AbeBooks.

[70charger]

Thanks. I'm going to go check out the book again to see if it's worth the money. It could be, but my book queue is so long....

[Jeremy Nygaard]

Something worth pointing out:

 

While checking out the Snappers Pro Shop last night, it was pointed out that some t-shirts were discounted (from $15 to $12).

 

Which t-shirts were they?

 

The ones that associated the Snappers with the "Minnesota Twins".

[Jeremy Nygaard]

Thorough article about the (potential) affiliation shuffle...

 

Link

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

Bad news in my view anyway. If there was any club that I'd want to move it would be New Britain. Rochester and Beloit are fine as is and I hope they are renewed.

[Pius Jefferson]

Unless you're in close proximity why would anyone care?

[minn55441]

The two cities from the article that caught my eye were Nashville and Memphis. Both would be a nice drive in the spring when nice summer baseball weather is a sure thing down there and we could still be shoveling snow. When I checked the distances though, it really isn't that much closer than Rochester. Nashville is 882 and Memphis is 830 miles. Althogh closer than Rochesters 1010 miles, it really isn't that much closer. Would many of us would really make the trip to either of these ciites, if we already view Rochester too far away? If you are going to fly, it really doesn't matter. If you are going to make a road trip of it and are looking for some warm weather in the spring or fall, then it may be enough of a change.

[nowheresville]

Duluth has a huge Twins fan base (including thousands of UMD students from the Twin Cities), and the Huskies (Northwoods League) average around 1,000 fans per game - which is ~150 more than the Snappers. They play in a 100 year old stadium that is up for a renovation that would be guaranteed if they were to be granted a Twins affiliate.

 

Ignoring all the other issues that make "converting" Duluth to a MWL team (ie actually buying an existing milb franchise, being 300 miles away from the next closest mwl team and 900 miles from the farthest), you really can't compare Northwoods attendance to MWL.

 

Northwoods is a much shorter season, where all of the games are in the middle of summer. MWL has an extra two months of games, most of them are in lousy weather. Having weeknight games in April when the temperatures are in the 40, is a pretty serious drag on attendance for nearly all the MWL teams.

 

Its also pretty much a myth that you can rely on college students to boost attendance. Madison is the perfect example. The summertime Mallards are a huge success, drawing 5000 a night, but Madison's had a lousy record with full season minor league ball (played when school is in session). Madison got a MWL team the same year that the Snappers were created, but the concept didn't work. Madison lost 2 MWL teams, and an Independent league team (which is now in Lincoln, which is probably why they don't have a Minor League team there btw), before the Mallards were created.

[Legend of the Arctic]

My dream is for the Twins to sign up a PCL team. The longer they wait to re-sign Rochester, the more my hopes grow.

 

I live in Sacramento, CA, where the AAA River Cats play, and if the Twins get a PCL team I'll be able to see them at least twice per year.

[Mave]

I don't think anyone has brought up St. Cloud yet. I don't know if this would even be plausible-- just throwing it out there...

 

It's a good baseball community/surrounding area-- some very good high school baseball teams come out of that neck of the woods. St. Cloud has the MAC and supports the River Bats and the Granite City Greys. Would it end up splitting attendance, being less than 60 miles from the Twin Cities? Would the MAC be able to handle the load? Not sure.

[Thrylos]

I don't think anyone has brought up St. Cloud yet. I don't know if this would even be plausible-- just throwing it out there...

 

It's a good baseball community/surrounding area-- some very good high school baseball teams come out of that neck of the woods. St. Cloud has the MAC and supports the River Bats and the Granite City Greys. Would it end up splitting attendance, being less than 60 miles from the Twin Cities? Would the MAC be able to handle the load? Not sure.

Here is this thing about new locations from St. Paul to Duluth to St. Cloud to Sioux City and everything in between...

 

It is not like throw a dart in a place and a team can chose an affiliate there and move their operations....

 

There are established leagues. The leagues have contracts with certain teams. And they can have so many teams (like the majors). So unless they expand (yeah good luck) or an existing team decides to move to another location, the present locations are where it is.

 

Of course, the Twins could buy the Las Vegas franchise, build a stadium in Rochester, MN or where ever and decide to move them there, but that is what it will take. And someone should be willing to sell. Matter of fact, this is what happened the first time the Twins' franchise got a minor league affiliate (minus the move) but that was about 80 years ago

 

 

Same with every level of play.

[Jim Crikket]

Thorough article about the (potential) affiliation shuffle...

 

Link

Thanks for the link, Jeremy. Pretty much confirms that the Twins had better hope for a Rochester renewal if they don't want to end up in the PCL.

 

And Thrylos is right, any ideas about an affiliate in a city that doesn't already have a MiLB team in an affiliated league isn't likely to happen short of the Twins buying a team and moving it where they want it. Not impossible in the future, but not likely any time soon.

[Reginald Maudling's Shin]

It sounds like only way to get a minor league club closer to Minnesota would be to purchase and start up a AAA team in the PCL, but there are no markets nearby large enough to sustain a AAA franchise.

 

The two teams with the closest minor league affiliates (outside of the east coast) that I can recall off hand are the Giants and the Mariners. San Francisco has a High A team in San Jose (50 miles away, but really next door) and Seattle has had a AAA team in Tacoma (30 miles away).

 

St. Paul is much closer to Minneapolis than these two examples, although I think all 3 have the minor league team in the same TV/attendance market. I think the MSP market is probably bigger than (or at least comparable to) Seattle so it would not be completely unprecedented. But, the Twins may not like the competition from having a team 10 miles away so that's probably the deal breaker. Also I assume Midway isn't close to an acceptable facility for a AAA team. There might be a fairly significant start up cost for an area that just paid for an MLB stadium, NNCAA football stadium, and NFL stadium.

[JB_Iowa]

Thanks for all of the clarifications starting with the article that JeremyNygaard cited plus the follow-ups from Thrylos and JC.

 

If the Twins end up with a team in the PCL, another possible city mentioned was Oklahoma City. I know nothing about the ballpark or ownership but the article indicates that it is one of the best in the PCL. It also says that the ownership group likes to make a "splash" so that may leave out the Twins but the distance (788 miles straight down I-35) plus the possibility of combining it in a road trip with a stop in Kansas City or even on to Arlington, makes it interesting.

[greengoblinrulz]

great article.....do not want back in the PCL. Numbers are so distorted that you have no idea what a player is....remember Michael Ryans 30 HRs in Edmonton??? Tho Id be interested in a Las Vegas trip to see the boys....wife would stay by the pool....sounds like they are last choice of everyone.

You'd think that with Arcia/Hicks/Hermann/Hermsen/Gibson etc all heading to AAA next yr.....ROC would be excited with that & knowing that Buxton/Sano/Rosario/Berrios/Walker/Keplar are all a yr or 2 behind them would entice them.

[Thrylos]

great article.....do not want back in the PCL. Numbers are so distorted that you have no idea what a player is....remember Michael Ryans 30 HRs in Edmonton??? Tho Id be interested in a Las Vegas trip to see the boys....wife would stay by the pool....sounds like they are last choice of everyone.

You'd think that with Arcia/Hicks/Hermann/Hermsen/Gibson etc all heading to AAA next yr.....ROC would be excited with that & knowing that Buxton/Sano/Rosario/Berrios/Walker/Keplar are all a yr or 2 behind them would entice them.

Vegas is the last choice of everyone because the ballpark is hideously old and decrepit, the ballpark is actually not in a decent area of Vegas (if that existed, but like half-way to lake Mead; way North and East of where people are) and the ballgame time temperatures are a toasty 120 degrees some summer days. This does not make for a very good experience.

[Reginald Maudling's Shin]

 

Vegas is the last choice of everyone because the ballpark is hideously old and decrepit, the ballpark is actually not in a decent area of Vegas (if that existed, but like half-way to lake Mead; way North and East of where people are) and the ballgame time temperatures are a toasty 120 degrees some summer days. This does not make for a very good experience.

I concur with all of this. I lived in Vegas for 6 years, went to one game in late April, it was upper 90's and still miserable. Felt like it was about 6 blocks from the sun. They have the metal bleachers that are designed to melt your pants to your rear end.

 

Vegas really screwed up here. They messed around trying to lure an NBA team with a plans to build a shiny new 20,000 seat arena when they should have taken care of their only existing professional franchise.

[greengoblinrulz]

Why does the PCL keep a team in Vegas if the facilities are so bad......are any casinos allowed to pay/help out the club???

Those that have been there......what would you do for them to improve it???

[Thrylos]

Why does the PCL keep a team in Vegas if the facilities are so bad......are any casinos allowed to pay/help out the club???

Those that have been there......what would you do for them to improve it???

Ha

I bet the used car salesman wants baseball associated with Casinos and gambling about as much as he wants a heavy dose of Syphilis

 

Improve that ballpark? Nuke it and build an indoor facility, which is way too expensive for AAA (or buy the franchise and move it some place temperate). Baseball just is not meant to be played in the low desert in the spring and summer months.

[Reginald Maudling's Shin]

Why does the PCL keep a team in Vegas if the facilities are so bad......are any casinos allowed to pay/help out the club???

Those that have been there......what would you do for them to improve it???

Quite frankly I think the PCL has no other options right now and that's the only reason the Vegas team still exists.

 

Casinos pay for everything else so sure, they could help out. As far as I know Steve Wynn could buy them tomorrow if he wanted to. I think the smartest thing for them to do is have their leadership stop dreaming about an NBA team and try and get private money into a nice AAA facility. They don't need any taxpayer money, the economy is lousy (based entirely on the housing market outside of the casinos) anyway so that wouldn't fly. If the folks there want to eventually get a major league sports franchise they should invest in the AAA team, put a new stadium next to the strip (you know, where the people are with the money to spend) then show that will work. It will, because they draw fairly well at Cashman which is in an area so bad taxis won't go there.

[greengoblinrulz]

Why does the PCL keep a team in Vegas if the facilities are so bad......are any casinos allowed to pay/help out the club???

Those that have been there......what would you do for them to improve it???

 

Ha

I bet the used car salesman wants baseball associated with Casinos and gambling about as much as he wants a heavy dose of Syphilis

 

Improve that ballpark? Nuke it and build an indoor facility, which is way too expensive for AAA (or buy the franchise and move it some place temperate). Baseball just is not meant to be played in the low desert in the spring and summer months.

Would Bud have say over a privately owned minor league team??? Article said they are locked into the PCL, so if a local business wants to make a donation, could he block it??? If not, he shouldnt have ever let it into the league.

[greengoblinrulz]

Why does the PCL keep a team in Vegas if the facilities are so bad......are any casinos allowed to pay/help out the club???

Those that have been there......what would you do for them to improve it???

Quite frankly I think the PCL has no other options right now and that's the only reason the Vegas team still exists.

 

Casinos pay for everything else so sure' date=' they could help out. As far as I know Steve Wynn could buy them tomorrow if he wanted to. I think the smartest thing for them to do is have their leadership stop dreaming about an NBA team and try and get private money into a nice AAA facility. They don't need any taxpayer money, the economy is lousy (based entirely on the housing market outside of the casinos) anyway so that wouldn't fly. If the folks there want to eventually get a major league sports franchise they should invest in the AAA team, put a new stadium next to the strip (you know, where the people are with the money to spend) then show that will work. It will, because they draw fairly well at Cashman which is in an area so bad taxis won't go there.[/quote']

There is a ton of land undeveloped just north of strip (old Stardust area)...so you could do it there & still be on the 'strip' couldnt ya?? Might have to relocate some homeless guys but.......

[Jim Crikket]

Rule 54 requires notice to the Commissioner, MiLB President and League president whenever a team considers entering a "regulated transaction" (transfer of equity interest, loans, stadium leases, broadcast rights, concession rights beyond 1 year, naming rights, or any other contract of 5+ yrs). The same rule severely restricts ownership of MiLB teams by anyone with much of a tie to legalized gambling at all. That wouldn't necessarily preclude a casino owner from funding a stadium out of the goodness of his/her heart, but they probably couldn't even get naming rights to the ballpark. Not sure why a casino owner would want to put money in to a business that would potentially provide alternative entertainment options to locals and tourists, anyway. They want people in the casinos, not at the ballpark.

 

On the Class A front, Cedar Rapids' BOD has decided to enter the "pool" rather than sign an extension with the Angels at this time and will be notifying the Angels of that Sunday or Monday. They want to explore options with a midwest MLB team. The Cubs and Twins would be at the top of their list, but if the Cubs and Peoria divorce, the belief is that Ft Wayne would be the Cubs' preferred destination. There's a lot of support for partnering with Minnesota, though obviously no decisions would be made until the last half of September when teams looking for new affiliates would make presentations.