Is the Affiliation Dance about to begin?

[joeboo_22]

I don't know about the financials but I think St. Paul would work. Am I wrong that they have the same ownership as Ft. Myers?

 

I think there is benefits to having a minor league affiliate close to the big club. I don't know if you would want it that close though. The twins send quite a few of there prospects to low-A. Mauer went there, Kubel went there, Sano is there now, as well as others. I think it would be good to have them close enough so some of the medical staff, coaching staff, and other front office guys.

 

At the same time I think it would be more beneficial if they had a close AAA team. Whether that is (new stadium would be needed in most cases) Sioux Falls, Rochester (MN), Sioux City, Fargo/Moorehead, St. Paul, Green Bay, Madison. Somewhere where if you need a guy quick they can get there, somewhere in driving distance to go scout. Somewhere were they can go on rehab starts, be evaluated by the parent club, and so on. I just think a somewhat closer AAA team would be beneficial.

[Thrylos]

Talked with some people with the Kernels this weekend and I can just say that they had heard about Coleman's comments and it will be an issue they'll be taking up with Twins officials as a part of any discussions held between CR and the Twins after 9/16. Cedar Rapids wants a long-term relationship and if they get a sense that they'd just be a stopgap while the Twins wait until St Paul is doable, I don't believe we'll see the Twins in Cedar Rapids next year.

 

you need to put an "IF" there about those discussions and call them "potential" or "hypothetical" or something. Don't want to get anyone in trouble

[Jim Crikket]

Good point... let me clarify in case Bud Selig and his storm troopers are reading this. When I wrote "people with the Kernels," that should not be taken to mean anyone in an ownership or other decision-making role with the organization. Of course, when I say "any discussions" that would be any POSSIBLE discussions, which would only occur in the event that both the Twins and Kernels find themselves without a PDC in place on September 16 and if the Twins then contact the Kernels and request to make a presentation.

 

Hope that makes everything perfectly clear.

[IdahoPilgrim]

Good point... let me clarify in case Bud Selig and his storm troopers are reading this. When I wrote "people with the Kernels," that should not be taken to mean anyone in an ownership or other decision-making role with the organization. Of course, when I say "any discussions" that would be any POSSIBLE discussions, which would only occur in the event that both the Twins and Kernels find themselves without a PDC in place on September 16 and if the Twins then contact the Kernels and request to make a presentation.

 

Hope that makes everything perfectly clear.

 

And Diamond really didn't mean to throw at Hamilton...

[jtrinaldi]

Talked with some people with the Kernels this weekend and I can just say that they had heard about Coleman's comments and it will be an issue they'll be taking up with Twins officials as a part of any discussions held between CR and the Twins after 9/16. Cedar Rapids wants a long-term relationship and if they get a sense that they'd just be a stopgap while the Twins wait until St Paul is doable, I don't believe we'll see the Twins in Cedar Rapids next year.

So that means that means Burlington would likely be eliminated from the MWL. Had the lowest MWL attendance the last 20 years.

[Jim Crikket]

I'm pretty sure Burlington is community owned, like Beloit and Cedar Raipds, and last I knew they were operating in the black. If that's the case, they're probably "safe". It's all but impossible to take away a franchise that's community owned as long as they meet financial obligations and maintain facilities at or above standards outlined in Rule 58. There are very few MWL franchises that you'd consider even possibly at risk. Beloit (facilities?) and Peoria (financial?) are the only two I've ever heard as even possibly having problems and I have no idea if even those two would really be possibilities.

[jtrinaldi]

New Update: Cedar Rapids has decided not to pursue further affiliation with the Angels

[East Coast Twin]

New Update: Cedar Rapids has decided not to pursue further affiliation with the Angels

 

http://www.kcrg.com/sports/local/Kernels-Lose-Finale-Look-For-New-MLB-Affliliate-168417356.html

[joeboo_22]

If this has previously been discussed I apologize but what is the financial difference to the big club if they go with a team with A+ facilities compared to one like Beloit with the bare minimal? Is the contract more expensive? Is there other obligations? Or is the contract all the same?

[Jim Crikket]

There doesn't seem to be a financial difference of any substance. The MLB affiliate covers cost of paying players, coaches & trainers (salaries and meal per diem on road trips). They also pay a portion of equipment like gameballs, etc (I've been told it's 2/3, with minor league club paying 1/3... inventory at the end of the season becomes property of the MLB club). Minor league organization pays travel expenses (up to 17 rooms per night).

 

But costs aside, it's worth something to the MLB organization to have their players at a facility with relatively modern clubhouse, training/workout facilities. But the financial obligations of the MLB team vs the MiLB organization are pretty much set by rule without much wiggle room. I guess that's to keep the teams from playing one potential affiliate against another in terms of what they can convince potential affiliates to kick in.financially.

[jtrinaldi]

Have herd that Every Parent club in the Midwest League does not want to end up in Beloit for next year which means that someone will be jumping ship to the SALLY, I could see the Astros or Mets being stuck with Beloit.

[Jim Crikket]

Can't say that's a huge surprise. It's pretty hard to imagine a MLB team saying, "hey, those facilities in Beloit would be great for our guys." It's really too bad they can't figure out some way to do something about a new ballpark. You just feel like it's going to be a game of musical chairs and the last MLB team to find another landing spot ends up in Beloit. That's unfortunate for both Beloit and the MLB affiliate that goes there, with both knowing it's a forced 2-year marriage.

 

I could see the Angels or A's going to the Sally, since geography isn't an issue for either one of them although they both seem to have been in the MWL for as long as I can remember.

[joeboo_22]

First of all how did the Twins end up with Beloit as their affiliate? Is this Terry Ryan's ties to the area? Or did they piss off every other affiliate in the Midwest league? I guess if its just facilities I don't really understand why the Twins ended up their, and why they have stayed their. I understand the greater Beloit area from Janesville to Rockford has been hit pretty hard by the recession but at the same time the issues being brought out have been there long before we knew what a housing crisis or auto decline ever was.

 

I guess I look at Beloit, and wonder why do they continue to have a franchise? And how did the Twins end up there, and if they are so bad why have they stayed for what 6-8 years?

[Jim Crikket]

The Twins were in the Quad Cities and I think they were fine with staying there, but the QC ownership at the time (it's since changed hands) had a shot at getting the Cardinals and took it. I believe the Twins were caught a bit offguard by that and I don't know what, if any, options the Twins had at the time, but it could have been limited. Also, they were talking about a new stadium in/near Beloit I think. In fact, they've been "talking" about it ever since the Brewers were in Beloit. I think you might say the Twins have been more than patient but the stadium outlook for Beloit is probably more bleak now than it has been in years.

 

Beloit continues to have a franchise because the MLB/MiLB agreement makes it almost impossible to take a franchise away. I do think they're walking a bit of a tightrope, though, if they don't do something soon.

[Mr. Ed]

La Valle briefly noted something about the Nats and FM. I know this isn't the right thread,but can someone pass on what that's about?

[joeboo_22]

La Valle briefly noted something about the Nats and FM. I know this isn't the right thread,but can someone pass on what that's about?

 

I'll take my shot at this. In the past 2-5 years Fort Myers or more noticeably Lee County has expressed interest to acquiring a 3rd Spring Training team. However since they have expressed their interest they have built the Red Sox a new $80 million stadium and are in the final plans to put $30 million into renovations for the Twins. It says that the Nationals have expressed interest of moving to Fort Myers but I'm sure they would only do it for a publically funded stadium and facilities. The only thing would be is if Lee County told the Twins the only way they would renovate the stadium is with the Nationals as co-tenants but I really don't know.

[nowheresville]

From everything I've been able to gather the Snappers and Twins have had a very good working relationship, and if there was the prospect of a new park the Twins wouldn't leave Beloit. For the a few years in the Mid-00's, it did seem like there was some good progress towards a new ballpark, either in Beloit or Janesville, but between the crash of the economy and the death of a local billionaire who was planning to put up a good chunk of money for a park, those talks have gone completely quiet. The Snappers staff has told me they are working to make some improvements this off-season, in part to try to convince the Twins to stay, but seems pretty clearly a case of way too little too late.

.

In 04-05, Beloit would have been the only team in the MWL West that was available. Peoria and QC gobbled up the Cubs and Cards. Beloit was open after the Brewers moved to the Sally for 2 years. In the east, the only two cities that were open were Lansing and Battle Creek. Toronto moved to Lansing and is still there today. The Rays moved to Battle Creek, but the franchise itself moved and became Great Lakes 2 years later.

 

What is amazing is in 30 years, Beloit has only been affiliated with 2 franchises. The best I can tell, the only other MWL team that has been that stable is Cedar Rapids. Everyone else has seen at least 3 or 4 affiliation changes since then (some many more), or simply hasn't been a team that long.

[joeboo_22]

Since I'm getting so many good answers, I'll keep asking questions.

 

What is the reason for the low attendance? I know Beloit itself is pretty small but if you add Janesville and Rockford it is fairly large (100,000+). I understand the economy isn't great in the area but still. They average less then 1,000/game, the Twins actually send prospects to Low-A. So is the reason they aren't drawing is because the facilities are bad, the local economy can't support or is it just not Twins territory?

[jtrinaldi]

The Twins were in the Quad Cities and I think they were fine with staying there, but the QC ownership at the time (it's since changed hands) had a shot at getting the Cardinals and took it. I believe the Twins were caught a bit offguard by that and I don't know what, if any, options the Twins had at the time, but it could have been limited. Also, they were talking about a new stadium in/near Beloit I think. In fact, they've been "talking" about it ever since the Brewers were in Beloit. I think you might say the Twins have been more than patient but the stadium outlook for Beloit is probably more bleak now than it has been in years.

 

Beloit continues to have a franchise because the MLB/MiLB agreement makes it almost impossible to take a franchise away. I do think they're walking a bit of a tightrope, though, if they don't do something soon.

The thing about the stadium is that Beloit had a proposal for the stadium, but not where the Big Donors wanted it (they wanted it on the River), and the City of Beloit planned on it being right off of 43, about a mile down the road on farmland. The Big Donors didn't like it and insisted that it be on the river, City of Beloit said No, and I haven't herd anything since.

[Thrylos]

La Valle briefly noted something about the Nats and FM. I know this isn't the right thread,but can someone pass on what that's about?

 

I'll take my shot at this. In the past 2-5 years Fort Myers or more noticeably Lee County has expressed interest to acquiring a 3rd Spring Training team. However since they have expressed their interest they have built the Red Sox a new $80 million stadium and are in the final plans to put $30 million into renovations for the Twins. It says that the Nationals have expressed interest of moving to Fort Myers but I'm sure they would only do it for a publically funded stadium and facilities. The only thing would be is if Lee County told the Twins the only way they would renovate the stadium is with the Nationals as co-tenants but I really don't know.

 

They have been talking with the Nationals about that even after the Red Sox facilities were up. They were talking up till the primary elections changed the make up of the commission.

 

And btw totally unrelated to Hammond Stadium. That would be exclusively Twins' territory in ST.

[nowheresville]

Since I'm getting so many good answers, I'll keep asking questions.

 

What is the reason for the low attendance? I know Beloit itself is pretty small but if you add Janesville and Rockford it is fairly large (100,000+). I understand the economy isn't great in the area but still. They average less then 1,000/game, the Twins actually send prospects to Low-A. So is the reason they aren't drawing is because the facilities are bad, the local economy can't support or is it just not Twins territory?

 

First of all, the Snappers actually have consistantly been drawing just over 1,000 a game, and in some of their good years with the Twins, its been around 1,300.

 

One thing you really need to remember is that Rockford is basically an entirely different market. Rockford has its own baseball team (Independent, Frontier League) that competes against the Snappers for fans. In fact, the Rockford Riverhawk's new stadium, built about 5 years ago, is actually north of Rockford and is only about 15 miles from Pohlman Field.

 

Even Janesville is a bit of a tough sell, because there the Snappers essentially are competing with the Madison Mallards, simply because a lot of people there work in Madison, and/or never have a reason to go to Beloit.

 

The reality is Beloit is one of the smallest markets in the MWL and their attendance reflects it. Despite that, the team does still stay in the black.

 

I wouldn't say that the Twins affiliation has anything to do with attendance, as they were drawing as many fans with the Twins as they were with the Brewers. You really have to keep in mind that the average fan at a minor league game isn't going because of the team affiliation or what prospects are on the team. Sadly, many of the casual fans at a Snapper game don't even understand that the MWL is a much better product than what they'll find in Rockford or Madison, they're just looking for a good time. If anything, the Snappers have hurt themselves by making the experience about going and watching quality baseball, unlike how the other teams in the area to go great lengths to make their product a circus surrounding a baseball game. However, If you're a fan of good baseball, you can really appreciate the difference.

[jtrinaldi]

Since I'm getting so many good answers, I'll keep asking questions.

 

What is the reason for the low attendance? I know Beloit itself is pretty small but if you add Janesville and Rockford it is fairly large (100,000+). I understand the economy isn't great in the area but still. They average less then 1,000/game, the Twins actually send prospects to Low-A. So is the reason they aren't drawing is because the facilities are bad, the local economy can't support or is it just not Twins territory?

Beloit is not a small city compared to other cities in the MidWest league (clinton/burlington). Beloit has roughly 34K Janesville has 64K. The reason that Beloit doesn't draw well at all is because of now marketing/fan interactions outside of the Stadium and in the offseason. If you follow along in the Offseason with other Midwest league teams you will see just how little Beloit does. The Timberratlers do everything possible to engage their fans regardless of how bad previous teams were, to get excited for next year. Beloit will have 1. Update for the Schedule, 1.Update for the new coaching staff. 1. Update for the Hot Stove banquet. In other words they don't do ****. You think they advertise in grocery stores or news papers? Not at all. The Timbberratlers have their mascot do interactive things with kids in school. Chris Mehring does a great job finding stuff to write about to cover the offseason making it enjoyable for the fans to get pumped about the season. Kane County also does a fantastic job updating their blog about the offseason, offering Trivia Tuesday's as well as various camps in the offseason where they fly in the coaching staff for a weekend in december to teach kids baseball and have stuff to do for the parents. Kane County and the Timberratlers exemplify how to engage fans and be excited about the next season. It is disappointing with so much of an audience that Beloit doesn't even advertise during the season (yeah, they have the Latino Bambino commercial but that is all).

[joeboo_22]

You see, I'm over in South Dakota where we have independent baseball with a bunch of no names and if your lucky 1 or 2 has beens and maybe once a year a draft holdout makes his way to town, and Sioux Falls which is in the 130,000 pop range averages around 2,500 a game. So when I see affiliated baseball and what I like to call good affiliated baseball team(a program that sends top prospects) and see what I've seen right around a 1,000/game (maybe more maybe less) I just wonder what is going on there. But as I've learned they have competition a declining ballpark, a struggling economy, and so on. Thanks for the updates, I do love the nickname "Snappers" and would love for Beloit to be able to support the team but I just see the numbers and facilities and it makes me wonder.

[Jim Crikket]

La Valle briefly noted something about the Nats and FM. I know this isn't the right thread,but can someone pass on what that's about?

 

I'll take my shot at this. In the past 2-5 years Fort Myers or more noticeably Lee County has expressed interest to acquiring a 3rd Spring Training team. However since they have expressed their interest they have built the Red Sox a new $80 million stadium and are in the final plans to put $30 million into renovations for the Twins. It says that the Nationals have expressed interest of moving to Fort Myers but I'm sure they would only do it for a publically funded stadium and facilities. The only thing would be is if Lee County told the Twins the only way they would renovate the stadium is with the Nationals as co-tenants but I really don't know.

 

They have been talking with the Nationals about that even after the Red Sox facilities were up. They were talking up till the primary elections changed the make up of the commission.

 

And btw totally unrelated to Hammond Stadium. That would be exclusively Twins' territory in ST.

 

Lee County is still talking to the Nationals, but money is the issue.

 

Lee County is looking for a team to move in to the Red Sox old ST facility in Ft. Myers proper. The catch, not surprisingly, is that the Nationals want the same kind of improvements that the Red Sox had wanted before the deal was struck to build their new facility. City of Palms Park (which the city turned over to Lee County several years ago) isn't a bad place for a ballgame, but there's only one practice field adjacent to it. The rest of the fields and facilities for minor leaguers are about a mile away.

 

So the Nats want out of Viera and can use an escape clause in their lease in a year or two, I believe, but Lee County's available tourism dollars are pretty much sunk between the Red Sox new facility and the improvements the Twins want at their place. Add to that the current anti-baseball political climate and it sounds to me like the two sides aren't really close to getting anything done.

[Jim Crikket]

Beloit is in a tough spot with regard to marketing, I think. They say it takes money to make money, but you also need funding in the first place to generate that growth. Beloit is community owned and needs to at least break even financially. It's got to be tough in that market to be able to afford people who can do the kind of off-season marketing that other teams do. Cedar Rapids, for example, probably has at least twice the number of full-time year-round staff that Beloit does. In the off-season, the entire CR staff become salespeople and they are immediately going out and marketing their product for the next season. They also run the concessions for the city's JHL hockey team that plays next door to the ballpark, so there are some revenue streams Beloit probably can't match. The result is more sales, which means they can afford more staff, which makes for a better fan experience during the season.

 

I know it's a bit of a chicken and egg situation, but I suspect Beloit would love to do more during the off-season. They can only spend what they take in, however.

[jtrinaldi]

Beloit is in a tough spot with regard to marketing, I think. They say it takes money to make money, but you also need funding in the first place to generate that growth. Beloit is community owned and needs to at least break even financially. It's got to be tough in that market to be able to afford people who can do the kind of off-season marketing that other teams do. Cedar Rapids, for example, probably has at least twice the number of full-time year-round staff that Beloit does. In the off-season, the entire CR staff become salespeople and they are immediately going out and marketing their product for the next season. They also run the concessions for the city's JHL hockey team that plays next door to the ballpark, so there are some revenue streams Beloit probably can't match. The result is more sales, which means they can afford more staff, which makes for a better fan experience during the season.

 

I know it's a bit of a chicken and egg situation, but I suspect Beloit would love to do more during the off-season. They can only spend what they take in, however.

The Biggest thing is that they don't update anything in the offseason such as the T-Rats or the Cougars which might be hurting them the most.

[Jim Crikket]

Not much new happening on this front, but after a bit of an email exchange with a pretty good source, I'm no longer concerned much about a possible St. Paul situation. So many cards stacked against that happening and I guess I've become convinced that the rest of the MWL would sign off on that deal even if one of the existing franchises became available.

 

The Cardinals are no longer seen as near-locks to extend with the Quad Cities, however, and assuming the Cubs do leave Peoria for Kane County (which I think everyone sees as a certainty, at this point), it will be interesting to see if Peoria and the Cardinals can put past issues aside and get back together. If not, I could certainly see Cedar Rapids having some interest in the Cardinals. Personally, I'm hoping though that the contingent of Cub fans on CR's Board would favor the Twins over their beloved Cubbies' fiercest rival.

 

The Twins/Cedar Rapids thing still just makes almost too much sense for it NOT to happen, however. I'm told the Twins have discussed Ft Wayne at least internally, but I can't see that as making much sense for anything except as an option if CR falls through. In that scenario, the Twins could be scrambling for another non-Beloit option and Ft. Wayne certainly has great facilities. It's just not geographically where the Twins would seemingly prefer to be.

 

At this point, I think every organization is putting together a plan A, plan B and plan C. It would be fun to be listening in when those plans start getting openly discussed on the phone lines and in the meetings rooms around the midwest.

[jtrinaldi]

Burlington's beat writer on Twitter about the Athletics

Susan Denk ‏@SusanDenk

@DoorsFan91 @Athletics I would be very shocked if they're back.

 

http://www.oursportscentral.com/sports/?t_id=353

[IdahoPilgrim]

You see, I'm over in South Dakota where we have independent baseball with a bunch of no names and if your lucky 1 or 2 has beens and maybe once a year a draft holdout makes his way to town, and Sioux Falls which is in the 130,000 pop range averages around 2,500 a game. So when I see affiliated baseball and what I like to call good affiliated baseball team(a program that sends top prospects) and see what I've seen right around a 1,000/game (maybe more maybe less) I just wonder what is going on there. But as I've learned they have competition a declining ballpark, a struggling economy, and so on. Thanks for the updates, I do love the nickname "Snappers" and would love for Beloit to be able to support the team but I just see the numbers and facilities and it makes me wonder.

 

Keep in mind that Sioux Falls probably has a better team than Beloit - the quality of play in the AmAssn is somewhere between A+ and AA.

[Jim Crikket]

I hadn't really heard anything about the A's, but like the other California teams, it probably doesn't matter much to them whether they're in the MWL or Sally from a geographic fit perspective.

 

The Peoria JournalStar put out thumbnail sketches of the 15 MLB teams that still don't have a low-A affiliate lined up for 2013. Ten are currently in the MWL and five in SAL.

 

http://www.pjstar.com/sports/x1903462898/Chiefs-are-searching-for-a-parent