Who put this roster together? TIME TO GO

[Pardon My Dinger]

 

I like Paul Molitor. I think he's a smart guy.

 

But based on the way he has managed this team the past few weeks, I don't want him within 50 feet of the GM's chair.

 

I might actually prefer Rob Antony in the chair before Molitor, that's how much I don't want to see Molitor have that much control over the organization.

Maybe so, but I think it's a Twinsy thing to do, and it's integral to the other moves. 

[alskntwnsfn]

Wanna hear the most ironic thing ever? 

 

Terry Ryan was the scout who "got it wrong" on Billy Beane. He was the Midwest Scouting Director for the Mets during that time. 

 

Wrap your head around that! Or even moreso, how he overcame that to become GM of the MN Twins. 

[alarp33]

 

I like Paul Molitor. I think he's a smart guy.

 

But based on the way he has managed this team the past few weeks, I don't want him within 50 feet of the GM's chair.

 

I might actually prefer Rob Antony in the chair before Molitor, that's how much I don't want to see Molitor have that much control over the organization.

 

I don't think we ever need to worry about Molitor being a GM... I do think we need to fear Antony

[bird]

 

You can't give Smith the credit for the guys drafted during his time. Give the credit to the scouts, they are the ones that deserve it.

 

 

Thanks for saying this, because these guys are sick and tired of me saying that the GM, be it Smith or Ryan, has almost nothing to do with the actual draft decisions. Arguing about which GM's tenure produced better results is a big cluster*&*k of irrelevance.

 

And fellas, please please please don't go down the "but Smith signed Sano road". Giving Smith more than a sliver of credit for what happened with Sano is perpetuating a false story. And I'm not sure if Billy Smith even knows who Jorge Polanco is. 

 

So please, friends, let's stop talking about Smith vs. Ryan in this regard until one of you can prove to us that Smith in particular was ever in a room with a bunch of scouts when any discussion was EVER had about whether it makes more sense to draft Buxton instead of Glausman.

 

BTW, after the Twins selected Tyler Jay with the 6th overall pick, Ryan said he never saw Jay pitch in person. Not once. He said he trusted his people to make the call. So, if you want to discredit or credit a GM for draft and development results, and compare the success of one team versus another, you need to talk about a collection of about five dozen people, and you need to compare the results against other teams in an even-handed way.

[Pardon My Dinger]

 

Wanna hear the most ironic thing ever? 

 

Terry Ryan was the scout who "got it wrong" on Billy Beane. He was the Midwest Scouting Director for the Mets during that time. 

 

Wrap your head around that! Or even moreso, how he overcame that to become GM of the MN Twins. 

That is terrifying. I don't want to even say why...

[d-mac]

 

That's a good point. I withdraw my statement.

 

No worries. I gotcha. 

[bird]

 

If we play that game we might as well not give a GM credit for much of anything.  Even trades come down to scouts and their opinions.

 

 

Trades come down to the GM, period. Relying on a scouting report and an opinion and then negotiating a deal is very far removed from the whole draft process. Go ahead and play the "buck stops here" card when it comes to the draft, but let's not exaggerate the importance of the GM's opinion when it comes to the draft or downplay the GM's role when it comes to trades.

[Mike Sixel]

Hence....Smith led regime....Ryan led regime.....

 

they hire the lead scouts. They hire the minor league coordinator. They hire the manager. They decide on the 25 man roster. 

 

I don't know, I'd think they are as accountable as any CEO/President/whatever....even if they don't do the actual work.

[Mike Sixel]

The argument made here was that Ryan inherited a barren wasteland when he took over. 

 

How would you short hand the previous years, other than Smith - led? Do we need to list every scout, assistant GM, coach, manager? Is literally no one actually accountable for one playoff series victory? If everyone is, no is.

[d-mac]

 

Like Rachel Phelps, I'm now very actively hoping this team continues to lose. Not because I want the team to move to Miami or Portland, but because I think losing in historic fashion is the only way we'll eventually win. Whoa, mind blown! But it's true...  

 

Think about, this club will never get over the hump so long as TR, the front office, and his coaching regime are running the show. Yeah, I know he had good teams during the mid-2000s? Sure, but he couldn't translate one of the best pitching staffs to ever play the game into any serious run (Seriously, best K/BB of all-time). Plus, they did pretty awful with most of their high draft picks and most of the highly touted rookie position players always seemed to be woefully overmatched in the major leagues. 

 

It will take a monumental breakdown to reach a point where even the Pohlads can't defend keeping this front office regime, but at some point... some where out there in the distance, we'll find our event horizon. Then we can blissfully pass through this black hole of a season and hopefully be led by more competent executives and coaches to a championship.

 

http://38.media.tumblr.com/2004b6d6b9038623faac8bca30b36b83/tumblr_inline_n8eh7ctyFj1qz65iu.jpg

http://rs1096.pbsrc.com/albums/g330/coloradogirl86/Clapping/tumblr_m6odkq8jNo1qbolbn_zps4103fd0c.gif~c200

[TheLeviathan]

 

Trades come down to the GM, period. Relying on a scouting report and an opinion and then negotiating a deal is very far removed from the whole draft process. Go ahead and play the "buck stops here" card when it comes to the draft, but let's not exaggerate the importance of the GM's opinion when it comes to the draft or downplay the GM's role when it comes to trades.

 

Except a sizable portion of who you target comes down to reliance on scouts.  If the contention here is that Ryan has to rely on a lot of people to do his job - that's true.  It's true for anyone who is what amounts to the CEO of their company.

 

But that means you are accountable for everything because you are ultimately accountable for the people you choose to listen to as well.

 

I haven't heard any of the Ryan bodyguards marching into threads to de-credit him for Buxton the last few years.  This is having your cake and eating it too.  And it's really annoying to be honest.  (Not that you're doing it, but you're defending those that are)

[d-mac]

 

Hence....Smith led regime....Ryan led regime.....

 

they hire the lead scouts. They hire the minor league coordinator. They hire the manager. They decide on the 25 man roster. 

 

I don't know, I'd think they are as accountable as any CEO/President/whatever....even if they don't do the actual work.

 

The two regimes are indistinguishable. It was the same brain trust the entire time.

[bird]

 

Hence....Smith led regime....Ryan led regime.....

 

they hire the lead scouts. They hire the minor league coordinator. They hire the manager. They decide on the 25 man roster. 

 

I don't know, I'd think they are as accountable as any CEO/President/whatever....even if they don't do the actual work.

 

 

Let's review the actual history of how much influence Bill Smith, an admitted "administrator", had on a single scout being hired, or a minor league coordinator, or manager. And please don't try to convince me that Smith had a ton of input on who ultimately made the cut after spring training.

 

Mike, it's not just about accountability, it's about proper and fair attribution. There are lots of examples of Boards of Directors cleaning house, only to discover that Management wasn't really the big problem. CEO's get canned all the time by boards, and sometimes it's fair and justified, and other times it's unfair and wrong-headed. But I have no problem if the board of the Twins cans Dave St. Peter.   Seriously, I don't push back at fair-minded and well-considered arguments for a GM regime change. I see clear strengths and weaknesses. I'm simply more tolerant than most because I think it's a really hard job with a boatload of uncontrollable variables in play at all times.

 

The discussion devolved from what might have been a more interesting one about what roster construction decisions might've been made, or could be made, but once again, we get caught in the same old trap. I can't wait for tomorrow, because the "Ryan must go" discussion gets more scintillating every day.

 

I assign 100% attribution to Ryan for the construction of the roster. IMO, while it's currently rather flawed, it's not the complete disaster some people are making it out to be, nor is the 0-9 start a 100% reflection on roster construction. I attribute the poor start most heavily on the players, and secondarily on the manager, although not knowing what's really happening inside the clubhouse dampens my criticism of Paulie.

[Mike Sixel]

So, if Smith had little influence, it must have been people put in place by his predecessor, right?

 

Look, they've won 1 playoff series in this era. 1. That seems like a pretty low bar for success.

[Linus]

That is terrifying. I don't want to even say why...

Weird. Billy Beane was from California if I recall. Why would the Midwest scouting director make the decision....

[alskntwnsfn]

 

Weird. Billy Beane was from California if I recall. Why would the Midwest scouting director make the decision....

 

Oh man... I think I may have made a mistake. There is a Mt Caramel HS in Illinois, but you're right, Beane went to school in CA. So, not as big of a connection as I thought. Mea culpa!