PioneerPlanet.com Article Dredges Up Mind-Melting Gardy Chestnuts

[DaveW]

Clearly, you're on to something here. The sucktastic '90's were all Ron Gardenhire's fault.

Worst. 3rd base coach. ever.

[Shane Wahl]

Yeah, that's great... When the book is wrong. Joe Maddon is great at knowing when the book is wrong.

 

If Gardy was to go against the grain and eliminate the ninth inning "closer", most of us would be cheering. He would have "gone against the book" and found a potential exploit in current baseball thinking that improves the team.

 

But we're not talking about that. We're talking about running guys on the field who OPS at .500 because they "hustle" or they "really get in there and play". Except they don't play. The stats show that. They're awful MLB players. But Gardy runs them out there anyway.

 

He's trying to play a 21st century game with a 19th century mindset. It's not a winning formula. The Twins could get away with it earlier in his career because the scouting was excellent, development was top-notch, and Anderson did a fantastic job with the pitching staff. That's no longer the case. The Twins need to modernize in a big, bad way and Gardenhire continually proves he is incapable of doing that by running Drew-^%$ing-Butera out there two or three times a week, despite having Ryan Doumit on the bench.

 

One of the hallmarks of early-Gardenhire Twins teams was their "little things" play. They played sound defense. They hit the cutoff men. They didn't kick the ball around. Those Twins teams are gone, which leads me to believe that those attributes were the result of the hard-ass Tom Kelly, not Ron Gardenhire. If Gardy can't even do traditional baseball right (which he seems to pride himself on), how can we expect him to do anything right at this point?

 

I'm not a huge Gardy-basher and I think he does a fine job in the clubhouse but it's becoming more apparent that this franchise needs to go in a different direction. Part of that should involve the coaching staff. I'm willing to give Ryan a little more time to see if he can rekindle more magic but outside of the GM position, it's probably time to start thinking about moving the franchise in a new direction.

Precisely. Reading this article was infuriating.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Well this thread has officially jumped the shark.

 

The impact of the manager on the team's success or failure is often wildly overstated. But now we're linking results to former managers?! Wow.

No, I'm speculating that the Twins slow decline in "the little things" is due to Tom Kelly not being the one drilling these kids with fundamental baseball tactics. Kelly was renown for his brutal Spring Trainings and his "Good Morning!" messages, which meant that the infielders would be taking ground balls until their knees buckled.

 

And you saw that in the 2001-2004 teams. Can you really say you see that kind of play in today's crop of Twins players?

[woolhouse]

Does anyone have a copy of "Moneyball" they could lend Gardenhire? Either the book or DVD. Because it seems most other managers and GMs have read it...

[Riverbrian]

No, I'm speculating that the Twins slow decline in "the little things" is due to Tom Kelly not being the one drilling these kids with fundamental baseball tactics. Kelly was renown for his brutal Spring Trainings and his "Good Morning!" messages, which meant that the infielders would be taking ground balls until their knees buckled.

 

And you saw that in the 2001-2004 teams. Can you really say you see that kind of play in today's crop of Twins players?

I'll raise my hand. I do not see the same fundamental sharpness in the Twins. I also theorize that the lack of sharpness costs our pitching dearly in the ERA department and makes a bad staff look badder.

 

2011 was beyond brutal. 2012 has been better because of the addition of Carroll who came from outside the organization.

 

Is it Gardy... I don't know. He sure used to attack Cuddyer for fundamentals. All I know is that with this pitching staff. You gotta have it cuz the margins of error are tight.

[Riverbrian]

Does anyone have a copy of "Moneyball" they could lend Gardenhire? Either the book or DVD. Because it seems most other managers and GMs have read it...

The quote was from 2003 which was the year the book came out. Gee... Could that be why the question was asked? Also in 2003... How many teams were immersed in Moneyball theories?

 

I really think its stupid for any GM or Manager or Player to talk with any member of press because... Look what happens!!! Stay away from tweeting... Facebook... Random meetings with fans in supermarkets.

 

Your words can and will be used against you. Your words can and will be twisted to support how others feel!

 

Seriously... The Twins need to quadruple the size of the PR department. No one gets an interview until the PR department sterilizes the content in the form of one sentence press releases. Otherwise... Someone is going to over react.

[one_eyed_jack]

No, I'm speculating that the Twins slow decline in "the little things" is due to Tom Kelly not being the one drilling these kids with fundamental baseball tactics. Kelly was renown for his brutal Spring Trainings and his "Good Morning!" messages, which meant that the infielders would be taking ground balls until their knees buckled.

 

And you saw that in the 2001-2004 teams. Can you really say you see that kind of play in today's crop of Twins players?

---No, certainly not. I think 2006 was the last year you saw it. (Though much to my amusement, the 4-letter network and other associated national media buffoons continued to refer to the Twins as the "team that does the little things right" for years after it ceased to be true.)

 

While there's no doubt TK stressed that kind of play, I can't say I saw it consistently when he was actually managing the team either. So I'm just not sure how much you can attribute what the team did after Gardy took over to TK.

[CDog]

---No, certainly not. I think 2006 was the last year you saw it. (Though much to my amusement, the 4-letter network and other associated national media buffoons continued to refer to the Twins as the "team that does the little things right" for years after it ceased to be true.)

 

While there's no doubt TK stressed that kind of play, I can't say I saw it consistently when he was actually managing the team either. So I'm just not sure how much you can attribute what the team did after Gardy took over to TK.

Just as a quick test, fewest errors in the majors in 2010 and 2009, Twins were 5th and 2nd.

[greengoblinrulz]

if Gardy looked at numbers, Drew Butera would never get into a game. Luckily for him, he looks at outside things....like 'is he a friend with his dad' or 'has this guy kissed my ass enough'.......we wonder why this time has only won one playoff series despite being ahead in several & favored in others

[one_eyed_jack]

Just as a quick test, fewest errors in the majors in 2010 and 2009, Twins were 5th and 2nd.

---That's interesting, but to me there's a lot more to playing good fundamental baseball than not making errors. You could play a really crappy game without being charged a single error.

 

There's stuff like base-running errors, missing cutoff men, only getting 1 out on what should be a double play, failing to get a bunt down to advance a runner, etc. that are fundamental mistakes that don't show up in stats.

 

Granted I'm going from memory and general impressions, but it seemed like there were a lot more of those kinds of mistakes towards the end of the decade. Part of that may be personnel. Gomez and Delmon both had their share of misadventures.

[Shane Wahl]

With regard to the "little things" stuff--yeah it is blown way out of proportion by the national media, and yet there seems to be something lost there in the last few years, but maybe we tend to go to the other extreme and think that the team isn't doing the little things right at all, when that is not the case? It still may be true that compared to the rest of MLB, the Twins do those "little things" (however defined) right more often than most?

[Riverbrian]

Just as a quick test, fewest errors in the majors in 2010 and 2009, Twins were 5th and 2nd.

CDog... I got the same impression that Jack has. Last year... Those little things failures piled up into big innings at times. More times than should happen at the professional level. That 4th out at times is the difference between no runs and 3 and errors are usually not attached to it.

[Dilligaf69]

Nope. Last World series was in 1991. That is 21 seasons ago. After McPhail left, this team started to fall apart.

 

 

Except for that little break from 2002 to 2010 where they won 6 div titles and played in an ALCS..yeah yeah i know your gonna say but wait they have'nt won a series since or a game in 3 tries..true but to imply they had zero sucess since '91' is wrong.

[CDog]

---That's interesting, but to me there's a lot more to playing good fundamental baseball than not making errors. You could play a really crappy game without being charged a single error.

 

There's stuff like base-running errors, missing cutoff men, only getting 1 out on what should be a double play, failing to get a bunt down to advance a runner, etc. that are fundamental mistakes that don't show up in stats.

 

Granted I'm going from memory and general impressions, but it seemed like there were a lot more of those kinds of mistakes towards the end of the decade. Part of that may be personnel. Gomez and Delmon both had their share of misadventures.

Agreed. Like I said, I just went to check one thing that was fairly easy to find and something that is often linked to "little things."

[CDog]

CDog... I got the same impression that Jack has. Last year... Those little things failures piled up into big innings at times. More times than should happen at the professional level. That 4th out at times is the difference between no runs and 3 and errors are usually not attached to it.

Absolutely true, although I feel like 2011 was...well, I'll save the 15000 words or so and leave it at what we all know it was. Just...blyack.

[Riverbrian]

Absolutely true, although I feel like 2011 was...well, I'll save the 15000 words or so and leave it at what we all know it was. Just...blyack.

LOL... 2011 was expensive for me from a frustration standpoint... I broke 4 TV's throwing stuff at it. The remote Twice. I tossed My 13 year old son at the TV once and the last time I threw my broken third TV at the 4th TV.

 

They were not playing actual baseball last year. What was I to do.