LA Vikes Fan

I hear the angst about Cruz mashing for 2 months while the return may never amount to much. I guess my question is how much value is there Nelson Cruz mashing for 2+ months on the 2021 Minnesota Twins team? I think the answer is very little. Maybe having Nelson Cruz changes a 70 win team into a 75 win team. Frankly, who cares? All that is really lost is the potential entertainment value watching games on TV or at the game of a more competitive team that still isn't going anywhere. I just don't think that has a lot of value. Conversely, the trade has two very good things. First, we need Pitching. Bad. This gives us two more potential candidates for the back half of the rotation or the bullpen in 2022, and may be more than 2023 and beyond. Second, it opens up the DH spot to give at bats to guys like Rooker, and opens up the possibility of calling up Miranda to play 3rd/DH in combination with Donaldson. Both good things. This also does not change anything about what happens in the off-season. Cruz will be a free agent. We can re-sign him and this trade doesn't really change our chances or motivation. Normally I do worry about a guy getting comfortable in the new environment and preferring to stay there but he's going to Tampa Bay. They will never pay him enough to stay. To me, at the end of the day we gave up very little to get two real assets and open up playing time for other potential assets. All that we lost was two months worth of somewhat better baseball from the Twins. That is a small price to pay for the possibility of an improved team in 2022. At least that's what I think.

Calling up Rooker makes sense. Let’s see what he can do. It is interesting that they didn’t call up Cave. I understand Cave is a left-handed hitter and we’d rather have a right handed hitting DH or outfielder right now, but it does make you wonder a little bit what Cave’s future is with the organization. It almost looks like they’re waiting until Refsnyder or Buxton is ready to call up another outfielder and demote Celestino. I wonder if Cave won’t be included in a trade with one of the pitchers on expiring contract. It almost looks like the team wants to see what Rooker can do to see if he is in the plan going forward, but don’t really need or want to see the same thing on Cave.

Why trade Rooker until you’ve played him some more and give him a chance to see what he can do? He isn’t going to get us anything significant in return unless we can find a team willing to trade a blocked shortstop or pitching prospect in return for a blocked outfield/DH prospect. Seems pretty unlikely. He is worth more to us than he is to anybody else, so why trade him? I guess I could see him as the minor-league throw in to even out a different trade. I think the better thing to do is to do what they’re doing, call him up, put him in the lineup as a DH Or outfielder and see if he can find that hitting stroke he seem to have a couple of years ago in a small sample. There’s nothing for us in trading him now so why do it.

Trading Nelson Cruz is no fun, but this is exactly what the Twins have to do and should do. They traded a player only signed to the end of the season and got back to reasonably well regarded players at a position of need, starting pitching. It hurts emotionally and makes the team weaker in the short run, but probably makes the team stronger in the long run. The rest of the season needs to be all about evaluating what we have and opening up the DH spot to get more bats to others makes sense as does getting two more pitchers we can audition in these last two months of the season. By the way, I wouldn’t yet close the book on the Twins resigning Nelson Cruz in the off-season. A lot depends on how the team looks the last two Months of the season. If the FO thanks we can compete in 2022, I could easily see them trying to resign Cruz for another run as the DH. The competition may be tough but frankly that’s no different than things would have been anyway since his contract was going to run out at the end of the season. I like this trade. I also think this is pretty much it before the deadline unless they find someone to take Donaldson‘s contract. I think will see some small trades of guys like Simmons, Robles and Happ for A ball lottery ticket types. I think Pineda might get us a little more, but frankly not much. I very much doubt that Buxton, Berrios or Rogers will be traded by July 30 although all or some may be gone in trades over the winter. It will be very interesting to see who is still on the team come July 31.

I do think that "wait and see" is the right approach with Rocco. I do think that he sometimes gets a little to lost in the analytics and loses the human side of performance. Even if a particular pitching matchup is the right thing statistically, it may not be the right thing on that day for that player, and a manager needs to see and understand that before making a decision, I do think he needs a strong, experienced bench coach to help him. The biggest problem with this team is that the players who were supposed to be the core group at this point have mostly failed except for Polanco and Berrios and even they aren't leading lights. The middle of the batting order by this point was supposed to include Sano, Kepler, Buxton, Garver and Polanco. Sano is almost unplayable, Kepler can't hit and looks like he will never be more than a good fielding OF who should hit no higher than 7th (and maybe be the 4th OF), Garver is injured and inconsistent, and Buxton can't stay healthy. Polanco looks like a leadoff or #6 hitter. On the pitching side, Berrios hasn't taken that step to be a #1 ( I would argue that he's a solid #2/strong #3), Maeda is a mystery, and the bullpen never really developed past Rogers. It's hard to blame the manager for these failings.

Agrred. Besides, we really don’t have anyone to replace him. He’s hitting better than Kepler and Cave wasn’t hitting before he went on the IL. The good news is with Garver back we can put his bat in the middle of the order and maybe move Larnach down.

At what point to you take some pressure off of Larnach by dropping him in the Order? I know its tough because Kepler and Sano are not hitting, but maybe move him down to 6, with Kirilloff 3, Polanco 5, or even 7 with Kepler 5 and Polanco 6. Might help him mentally.

Interesting list. I see the Andrew Vasquez jersey on the twitter feed but didn't see him on your list. Looks to be having a great year in St. Paul. What do you think of him as an asset worth a shot this year?

I agree that the Padres are more likely to give up real assets for Berrios than the Dodgers. I live in LA and the Dodgers really tend to prize and hold onto the prospects they think are going to be long term MLB players. They have the budget to simply go out and buy what they need so they don't feel quite as much need to trade prospects for proven talent. I think it's going to be very hard to pry Dustin May away from the Dodgers. They see him as the number two starter behind Walker Buehler as early as 2023 when Clayton Kershaw is retired and/or living in Texas. Gavin Lux might be possible but right now the Dodgers are planning to have him play shortstop after Corey Seager potentially walks away in free agency after this season given that Scott Boras is his agent. The Padres might be the better trade partner right now. I did want to follow up on a point made by another poster indicating that it was telling the team made an offer to Buxton but not to Berrios or Rogers. Do we know that to be the case? I am more curious than anything because I would suspect that they have offers out to all three, or at least I would hope so because it would help provide clarity as to what they should do going forward. Has anyone read anything about that from a reasonably trustworthy source? Inquiring minds want to know.

I couldn't agree more. We are all just shooting in the dark ( or pissing in the wind, choose your metaphor) until we know the contract length. 7/$70m and 4/$70m are very different offers in both money and when he becomes a FA next. Also, there's nothing in the Athletic articles that suggests he has to "take this or he's gone tomorrow". In fact, those article suggests that if Buxton is not signed he will be traded over the winter, not at the Trade Deadline. The concept is that the Twins would want him to increase his value by playing in August and September, thus showing he can play for a significant stretch without injury, and thereby increase his value on the trade market. That sounds correct to me. Buxton should actually fetch a better return over the winter assuming he comes back and plays well then he would fetch now since he is been hurt and missed over 65% of the games so far this season. I actually think the FA is doing exactly what they should be doing. This year is about evaluating what you have and to seeing what you will have next year and post 2022. A big part of that is seeing if you can re-sign Berrios, Buxton and Rogers. I personally think that finding out if you can re-sign any of those three, and which ones, should be a critical part of your thinking on whether this team needs a re-tooling because that window of contention remains open for the next few years or whether we should shift to a rebuilding mode because without at least two of those three we probably don't have enough talent to contact in the short term and need to focus on the long-term. A long-term focus means trade those three for high ceiling, close to MLB ready prospects. Any reasonable prospect of contending in 2022, 2023, and maybe even 2024 requires us to keep at least Berrios, and probably at least one of Buxton and Rogers, or trade them for guys that become their equivalent next year will be hereafter. Good luck with the latter. I don't like the publicity because that suggests were being set up for failure, but I do think this is the right approach combined with taking guys we think are MLB ready, close to MLB ready, or frankly the best we got for now, and seeing what they can do.

I live in LA and I do think the Dodgers are in an interesting position with Baauer‘s future completely up in the air. I could see them trading for Berrios but I think they would have a hard time giving up Dustin May. What do you think about taking that same deal, have the Twins give up Berrios but not Rogers, and getting back Tony Gonsolin, Pepiot and Gavin Lux? Two pitchers and a SS?

Quick question, if Barnes is called up as the 27th man for a doubleheader do we burn an option year? I seem to remember that it does not burn an option year as long as you return the player to AAA after the doubleheader. It’s kind of a free look other than having to add him to the 40 man roster. Can someone let me know if I’m remembering this right? Frankly, we should call him up and give him more than one start so this may be a moot but at least we get a free look if I’m remembering this right.

Great article, ‘Nick. It’s all boils down to what you think of the talent on hand and whether you think this team can or will resign Berrios or Rogers. I think the talent on hand is good enough to contend in 2022 and certainly by 2023 IF we add a middle of the rotation free agent starter and a late inning free agent bullpen piece. Trading Cruz and or Donaldson freeze up the payroll space to make those moves. Playing the rest of this year with the young guys given every opportunity helps us evaluate what we have and whether I’m right on the window of contention. I think trading Berrios or Rogers at the deadline is too soon. Evaluate your younger additions over the rest of the season. Trade the expiring contracts, Cruz (and Donaldson if the offer is good enough) to augment things for next year If possible, but really to create openings for young pitchers to audition for 2022.. Make the decision on Berrios and Rogers over the winter after you have time to really see whether contention is possible in 2022. Don’t trade now, it’s too soon..

Guys, we have 6 games in the first 4 days after the All Star break, 15 in the the first 13, and no day off until July 29. We can’t cover that with our normal 5 man rotation. We will need at least 2 starts from AAA guys, one Thursday against Detroit and one Monday against Chicago just to cover the schedule. And that assumes the regular 5 don’t get traded or have to miss a start for injury. We need to start the best we have from the farm, so let’s all get used to seeing these guys.

Great to see this happen . This is exactly the kind of thing the twins should be doing for the rest of the season. Keep him in Minnesota and give him him more than one start unless he shows he isn’t ready. Winder should be next.

I agree. I don't think Gordon hits well enough to play anywhere other than SS for the Twins on a regular basis, with Polanco and Arraez around to man 2B. I guess the one thing I wonder is whether he can actually play SS at Polanco's level or better. I would like to see the Twins give him an opportunity to be the everyday SS for 4-6 weeks whether it's a AAA now (JT Riddle is not, and never will be, the answer at SS) or at the MLB level after a trade of Simmons. I may be whistling in the wind because the team may think they already know he can't play SS, but I guess I'd like to see him get the opportunity given the paucity of other options in the organization. I hope he gets that opportunity this year in the second half of a lost season. If he can't paly SS, he's an MLB utility infielder/OF at best and probably winds up going to another organization in the next year or two.

That really was the point. The idea is to let thee guys get into and (hopefully) work out of jams and not be pulled at the first sign of trouble. I understand the issue with Ober's innings; probably less of an issue with Barnes and Winder. Also, we can use the 10 day Dl properly to give breaks. The whole concept is to let these guys pitch as "real" MLB rotation or bullpen members to see what they can do. Some of it will be ugly but better to get through that this year than next year.

HI Otto, I agree that our goals are not mutually exclusive and I wouldn't trade Cruz or Donaldson unless there was some real upside in the return. I agree that we need some veteran presence to help the younger players improve and grow. To me, a big part of trading the guys I listed is to provide opportunities, not to get some great return. What I mean by not "babying" the pitchers is to let them pitch in stressful situations and not just use them for mop up and blowout duty. I actually like the idea of a 6 man rotation as long as Ober, Winder and Barnes are 3 of the 6. That does put stress on the bullpen but I think it's manageable. Give Ober, Barnes and Winder the chance to go 6 innings a start if they can, and pitch the young bullpen guys in middle inning tight situations, not just when the score is lopsided. I think you and I are not really very far apart. I would like to trade the guys on expiring contracts that aren't likely to be back next year and create opportunity. The return isn't irrelevant but it won't be much more than lottery tickets. I wouldn't trade the others unless the return is good and I wouldn't trade Berrios, Buxton or Rogers unless the return is outstanding. Donaldson is the toughest call for me because I can see that trading his contract might free up $$ to re-sign Berrios, Buxton and/or Rogers (and open up 3B for Arraez, Miranda and/or Sano), but I'm a little concerned that they trade him and then can't re-sign those three so the team is weaker as a result both short and medium term. The hardest decision is what to do with guys like Simmons, Colome, and Happ if there is no market and no one will take the contracts. To DFA or not to DFA? That would then be the question. I don't know the answer (probably no).

I have to say I don't think this thread is really focusing on the most important thing the Twins should be doing for the rest of 2021 - Developing Players To Contribute In 2022. The rest of this year shouldn't be about the overall won/loss record. It should be about developing players that are MLB ready and identifying whether certain players fit into that category. Wins and losses will be what they will be. Developing players is really the way to evaluate whether the 2nd half of 2020 was successful. The way to make that evaluation is to look at the end of the year and see who has developed enough to be considered a solid contributor for the next season. Winning 65, 70, 75, 80 or whatever games just doesn't matter. So what you do? You definitely trade Simmons, Happ, Pineda, and Robles. I would trade Donaldson and Cruz if we can get an appropriate return and, in Donaldson's case, we need to be willing to add a hitting prospect and/or cash to cover his salary so that we can get a good pitching prospect. I would trade Colome if anyone will take him, but I don't think anyone will. I would not trade Berrios, Buxton or Rogers unless the return is huge. Try to re-sign them and, if you can't, trade them over the winter. I know that means a lesser return but I think keeping at least 2 of those 3 (one being Berrios) is key to this team being able to contend for the next 2 to 5 years. The other thing you do is play the guys you think are ready or close tp being ready. That means Kirilloff and Larnach play essentially every day. Jeffers and Gordon get significant playing time and at bats, same for Miranda if we trade Donaldson. On the pitching side, Ober, Winder and I think Barnes pitch every 5th day unless they really stink for 3 or 4 starts in a row. Vasquez, Hamilton and Cano (and maybe Moran) get put in the MLB bullpen and used like regular middle relievers to see what they can do. No babying the young pitching, they pitch like they're expected to contribute. Trading the guys above should open up enough slots to allow playing time for these guys. That's with this year should be all about. To tank not to tank, that really isn't the question.

Gordon's chance to play regularly hinges on whether the Twins trade Donaldson and/or Simmons. If they trade Donaldson, Arraez goes to 3B (with Miranda getting some time there as well), and Gordon is the IF UTL. If Simmons goes, Polanco is the SS, Arraez the 2B and Gordon the UTl, and if Simmons and Donaldson go, Arraez is the 3B and Gordon can play SS or 2B. The trade situation will tell us if Gordon will get a shot and how big that shot will be.

There we go, someone willing to step out on a limb and make a prediction. Well done Leviathan. Brock, Mike, c'mon now, let's back that trash talk up with a prediction we can hold you to. Walk out on that limb,

Is it prediction time? We have 73 games left, right (162-89=73)? Bragging rights to whoever is the closest, although I'd be willing to play for Scotch (Bourbon for those with relatives still in the holler). By the way, if you drink Bourbon do you have to marry a cousin and get a mullet or is that optional? Just curious. But I digress. My prediction for the last 73 games - 43-30 for a final record of 82-80. We finish 7 games behind a 90 win White Sox team and 8 games out of the Wild Card. Who's with me?

I agree. Larnach's current struggles are all part of the natural order of things for a young hitter in his first taste of MLB pitching. He hit well when he first came up, and pitchers have adjusted by throwing him a lot of breaking stuff away and hard stuff up in the zone. These are the two natural weak spots for left-handed hitters. Now it's up to him to adjust so that he can lay off pitches out of the zone, hit the breaking stuff on the outer half to left field, and get on top of the high hard stuff. By all reports, he is a hard-working guy who is pretty obsessive about his craft. Now is not the time to send him down. Work with him over the break and keep him in the lineup for the next three or four weeks at least. We can take some pressure off by maybe moving him back to the 5 or 7 spot, with Kiriloff hitting 3 and maybe Kepler hitting 5 if he continues to hit (always a question with Kepler). I wouldn't send Larnach down unless he continues to really struggle over the next at least three weeks. This season is all about development, development, and more development. That is done best at the MLB level if the player has the tools and experience to possibly survive and learn at the MLB level. I think Larnach and Kiriloff both have the necessary tools and experience to survive at this level. We are just going to have to get used to slumps from both of them as they learn their craft. I strongly believe the best thing we could do for those two is get them 450+ plate appearances this season at the MLB level. I also think if we do that we will have two solid left-handed hitters that we can pencil in somewhere between the number 3 and number 6 spots on everyday basis on a hopefully contending team next year. That is what this year should be about for the next 2 1/2 months. Same thing goes for the young pitchers but that's for a different thread.

Interesting stretch ahead. Do you think that we will see a start from Barnes or Winder in the upcoming 6 games in 4 days stretch with the Tigers and White Sox? Detroit might not be a bad team for them to get in their first start; White Sox not so much. Might also be time to fire up the Uber and get Hamilton, Vasquez or Cano up. There willbe a time where they can replace a guy like Law or Coloumbe after they go 2 or 3 innings following a short start. Time to see what these 5 guys have. It will also be interesting to see if we make any trades over the break or wait until late July. It's hard to trade pitching when you come out of the break with 15 games in 13 days so any trade of Pineda, Happ, Robles or Thielbar probably has to wait until month end. Still, it would create space for a AAA pitcher. I think they can trade Simmons or Cruz whenever they want if they get the right deal. It will be interesting to see if they give Gordon games at SS after Simmons is traded, assuming he is. They've kept Gordon on the 26 man even though he hasn't been playing. I got to think that's because they intend to play him after trading Simmons either at SS or as a UTL. I'd love to see them give him a crack at SS now and then so they know going into the winter if he can play the position. They'll almost have to play him if Donaldson is traded. Interesting times, indeed.

Wow, I made the mistake of looking at the batting averages behind our #4 hitter, Larnach. They go - Jeffers .198, Sano .200 (on the way up!), Kepler .207 (also on the way up!), Celestino .156, and Simmons .231. Ouch, is that pathetic. And I wonder why this team has trouble scoring runs...