TNtwins85

Maybe in the course of the season when you go down with an injury it’s a serious goal in the spirit of competition and proving to oneself that you are back and can still compete. Oooorrrr… all of these guys are just automatons to the GM and owners bidding in order to get them the most money in the off-season. We all know Pablo Lopez’s mentality so with that in mind I wonder which of those options is true.

What was Justin Ishbia right about? I’m still trying to figure it out. Was he right about buying the team based on the fact he knew his new team would sweep the Twins? Was he pitching the 9th and threw the right pitch at the right time to get the big out? Did he make a bunch of great trades at the deadline to lift the White Sox talent level to ultimately sweep the Twins? I’m wondering how he figured into the win last night.

Love the show guys! It has become my new go to Twins podcast! Both of you guys seem very measured and on the same page unlike other more profile podcasts focused on the Twins. Great show fellas!

David Festa is not plagued by Twins development. Without their focus on taking a flyer on a college pitcher in the later rounds he would probably be selling cars right now without them. Add Joe Ryan, Bailey ober, Pablo Lopez, Zebby Mathew’s, Jake Odorizzi and any number of guys to that list. Believe it or not Falvey brought this Cleveland model to the Twins in his own way. Joe Ryan is a prime example and just because we don’t have 5 “Aces” doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. It’s a pitching pipeline. Not an “Ace” pipeline. Yeah, the twins don’t spend money on Big pitchers because that’s not what you want to do. How much money have the Twins saved by taking lower level low signing bonus guys and turned them into #2, 3, 4, 5 type guys? Granted if the process were implemented better you could supplant expensive hitters with the money saved on not having to buy pitching. That’s where they failed but despite what Gleeman yammers on about the Twins do a good job on pitching. Go watch any other team trot out guys at the back of the rotation that can’t throw a strike to save their lives. This doesn’t even mention the bullpen success’. I think people here get too locked into the Twins to realize where other teams are pitching wise. Hard to see the forest through the trees around here. David Festa should be thankful the Twins turned him into what he is today. It’s not a failed experiment. It’s just the nature of pitchers.

So we should just never intend to compete, articles should never be written and fans should just anticipate 90 loss seasons until when? You sure are lucky you’re not a pirates fan. You can always choose to be a Dodgers fan.

Right, if he comes up in ‘26 and has a solid season probably costs you another $10-15M over an 8 yr contract. If he keeps improving that price goes up considerably. His agent is Boras so might be a hard bargain. The faster you sign him before debuting the more likely it even happens.

I’ve been wondering something along the line of this only crazier. Before the new CBA do we see a top prospect get what is almost essentially a “lifetime” contract? Let’s say $200 over 15 years? Obviously you’re not paying him $13M a year but it gradually goes up and then down after say his age 31 season. With the new CBA coming is it something the Twins could do with Jenkins? Hell, even $120M over 10 years. Can and should this be a new thing? Your repose brought this question into my head again but it doesn’t sound all bad. I guess I’d rather spend $100M+ on a 21 yo than a 29 yo.

Very much agree. The Correa experiment showed us( even though we should have known based on how other teams have faired with long term contracts to players in their 30’s) that the Twins need to pick the lane that Nick spells out here. When you’re a mid to below average market team and a guy like this comes along lock him up! If you can get Jenkins to sign a say 7-8 year deal in the $70-90M range you do that. Players in their 20’s are gonna deliver value way beyond what an aging player will no matter the downside. He’s gonna hit. Don’t worry about the first week in AAA. He’s done this at every level so far and once he figures out the level it’s consistent 300/400/400 every time. I give it 50/50 odds he makes the team out of ST. Not because I want it as a fan but my eye test tells me he figures it out and fast.

Jeffers isn’t a Boras client.

Whole heartedly agree! Around here though people still seem to think this is a video game and your favorite team just signs all the good players every time. The good players always play great into their mid to late 30’s and when you need to trade for a player you just send 3 D grade prospects with a Trevor Larnach type and you get whomever you want no questions asked. Be careful with logic and spelling out the truth for people. They can’t emotionally handle it.

I love how the Twins are pushing him. He’s done the same thing at every level when pushed. I watch and he adjusts the same same way. He’s struggles right away. Then he adjusts and leans on his immense plate discipline. May not hit well but doesn’t swing at bad pitches. Eventually the singles come with the good AB’s and plate discipline. After a few weeks the singles turn into doubles. Eventually once he’s comfortable the hard hits and homers come. All while keeping the previously stated plate discipline. After a month or two he settles in and the batting line is around .300/.400/.400 usually a bit better but that’s the bottom line. All while being one of the youngest in the league he’s in. A stud!

I think you keep Pablo because with his salary you don’t get the haul you expect. Ryan though… if a haul is to be had you deal him. People need to understand where the Twins are. They’re not and shouldn’t be a team that signs 30 something year old pitchers to extensions. You operate like Cleveland and when he’s high you deal him for a haul. No need to trade Pablo. You ride out his contract and he brings stability to the young guys. I’ve suggested many times on here in the last week a Ryan and SWR to Baltimore for Rutschman, Mayo and Bradfield package. If we can do that and somehow piece together some kind of competent bullpen they compete next year.

I would absolutely love a Rutschman for Ober trade as I still see Rutschman as having massive upside and he slides in to this lineup perfectly. Especially in a rotation with Jeffers and at 1B when not catching. I just think Baltimore values him more than us Twins fans think. He’s got one more year of control as well and helps the bridge to Tait. If it’s Ober I think you’ve gotta package another SP to get Rutschman.

Good article! I love when people can see the positives and how the Twins can and should be competitive with a few tweaks at this point. If Ober can have a solid few weeks I believe they try to move him. This team is not as far off as people think and if they can piece together a bullpen they’re right there.

Every game they bring up how Martin has changed his swing and where he starts with his hands. It’s obvious he’s more to the ball. Love what he’s been doing since he came up. Putting professional AB’s together every game. If he can hit and get on base like he has I don’t care if he can’t field anywhere. Great article.

I’m sorry for rambling on and it was not directly pointed towards you. I assure you. I didn’t intend on blowing you up but this word tanking and the implications of what that means are so far from what is going on. This team was built to be highly competitive this year coming off a disappointing collapse. This should have been done last offseason but that would have illicitly drawn the same outrage. Instead they ran it back and even got the Pohlads to throw in a few bucks to sign Bader and Coulombe. All in all this team was expected to win anywhere in the realm of 85-90 games. What happened? All aspects of this team failed to perform. With the deadline being what it is the Twins had bullets that other teams wanted. Did they need to trade some of them? No. Did they get value? Absolutely. They got value for guys that were tradeable. That’s the key word. “Tanking” and 40% of the roster were key phrases after. Let’s go over all this. Correa was massively overpaid as all FA contracts present. His defense is showing signs of slipping and he simply struggled to hit this year. The Twins were lucky to get out of that. They can’t afford to play in that end of the pool. Duran- great value. They got 2 top 100 prospects just like they stated. Whether anyone likes it this is massive value for a RP. Paddack- impending FA. Gotta get something for him. Bader- impending FA. Same as Paddack. Coulombe- impending FA. Castro- impending FA. Stewart- head scratcher but with his history unload him for something before he gets hurt…. Which he did. Jax- wanted out. Got good value for a guy wanting out. Varland- a head scratcher but you essentially got 1 solid OF no matter what anyone thinks and a good SP prospect for an almost 28yo solid RP. Good value. France- impending FA- a throw in with Varland that probably got a better prospect in Roden. Really they traded 38.5% of the roster and they were gonna already trade impending FA’s which constituted 19.2% of the roster. So really what people are mad about is 19.3% of the roster. Why have we heard 40%? Cause it gets people more riled up. We can be mad about the whole situation but to overstate what actually happened is foolish and childish. Nobody is tanking. The Twins are not rebuilding. As much as everyone hates Falvey what was he to do? Everyone complains about what he did but what was the solution? Run it back again? The owners and FO put themselves in this spot by A. Not investing after ‘23 and B. Not doing anything at the last 2 deadlines or shaking up the core last offseason. This was inevitable if you look at it logically. Saying the Twins don’t deserve they’re draft spot because they did what they needed to do is so shortsighted and based out of emotion and not logic. They’re not “tanking” because that’s impossible and is just an inflammatory word meant to drive buzz for the MLBPA. When people say that word they’re falling into the trap of being inflammatory.

Can we stop with this word “tanking” please. The definition of tanking in sports is to deliberately lose or fail to finish a game or season in this context. Teams in MLB are not ”tanking” in any sense of the word. Especially in MLB where there is almost never a consensus player in the draft who will change the fortunes of a team immediately. A-Rod, Skenes, Harper and Strasberg are probably the closest thing to what would be described as such. Yet that didn’t happen. One guy does not make you a contender in baseball. In MLB and NFL it’s all about number of picks and number of high picks. Can’t trade picks in MLB per se. Unlike the NFL in MLB it’s all about development. Are certain owners handicapping their teams? Of course(Pittsburgh). Are certain franchises inept and the analytics part of the game? Yes(Rockies) Are particular franchises a straight up mess? Absolutely( Miami, A’s, White Sox). But are Major League Baseball teams “TANKING” as per the definition? NO!!! Anyone that has ever played competitive baseball at any meaningful competitive level above HIgh School knows there is way too much at stake for a team to “tank”. Tanking is a buzz word put into our vocabularies by high up MLB people to create a talking point about tanking in order for talking heads to spew it about anytime a terrible team does bad. Despite being hamstrung by the Pohlads this team was built to win. As good as the team should have been they severely underperformed. What gets you the most at the trade deadline? Pitching. What did the Twins have? Pitching. Along with a handful of pending FA’s. Like it or not this team needed a shakeup. You can’t trade the hitters that are underperforming. They have no value and you need them. What did they have? In house developed bullpen arms. Like it or not they believe they can do that again and they stocked up on arms to do that. Are the Twins gonna sign Ryan and Ober and Lopez to extensions past they’re contracts? No! Logic tells you to load up on arms for the foreseeable future. The Twins are not gonna sign a big arm. Makes no sense to them. Complain about it all you want and complain about it if they trade Ryan or Lopez but it all makes sense whether you like it or not. But they are absolutely not “Tanking”. They’re not in “rebuild” mode. They’re not trying to do any of that. For what it’s worth the white Sox from last year didn’t “tank”. They’re development of all those big time prospects failed miserably. What were they to do? Hold onto those guys for the draft pick? Even the Sox know that is stupid. The Angels are the best example. They should have traded Ohtani and Trout when they could have. Why? Because 5 prospects are better than one. They could have built half a team with the prospects they could have got for those two. What are they now? Mired in mediocrity with a Mike Trout who can barely play 100 games and an absolute shell of what once was. Ohtani? Well, he haunts that team from across town. “Tanking” is an NFL and NBA term because those leagues operate much different. In baseball if teams were to tru ally “tank” it would eventually catch up with even the owners. And it would never fly with the MLBPA. It’s simply a word used by the MLBPA to get its veterans paid and it’s a lever to get fans up in arms repeating a word that’s continually repeated to them.

The new CBA is already playing out. It’s gonna be a salary cap for a salary floor. They’ll argue over specifics right up until it’s time for ST and then magically everything will come together. Season maybe starts later than normal but no games are lost. With 2020 still in their minds the owners are not ready to lose any revenue again.

Exactly! If you look at a Cleveland or Tampa Bay model which seems to be Falveys MO you trade guys like Ryan this offseason or next offseason. By trading Ryan at his peak you take the prospects rather than a draft pick and you get more lottery tickets that way. For Ryan you maybe get 3 potential Ryan’s with the hope you really get one. That’s how these teams continually compete. Yes they develop well but you’ve gotta have players with upside to develop. The more of those you have the more potential you have for another high level player. It’s all about keeping that wheel churning. Trading players at their height and getting the most in return. Doing that over and over. Why do you think they got so many high end SP’s? They’re restocking the cabinet. So many on here don’t understand what’s actually happening.

Minimum salary is $760000 per year. Paid over 6 months. That’s $4k per day. If he’s worried about taking care of his family on his salary he’s not getting any pity from 95% of the population. Sounds like he needs to stop taking Boras’ calls and just play baseball. It’s crazy how much money goes to the top players but come on. These guys are better taken care of than most CEO’s of major corporations. I understand the business of baseball but if he was doing what he’s supposed to do the money aspect falls into place. Let’s be honest. The money a team and player argue over is a couple hundred thousand on a million dollar salary. What they argue over is life changing money let alone the actual salary.

Ok. In that sense Larnach is likely to be non tendered as well. Larnach if tendered probably makes somewhere around $5M next year. Mountcastle makes almost $7M now so likely to make $9-10M next year. So eliminate that happening. The Twins aren’t paying a $9-10M player worth .5 WAR for a .3 WAR player set to make $4-5M. Ober is set to make around $6-7M as a 30yo pitcher who is struggling to throw above 90mph and is worth .8 WAR atm. Rutschman is a former #1 overall who put up big numbers for a catcher and is having his worst season so far but is still 27yo. He’s averaged 3.7 WAR for his career and is set to make somewhere between $8-10M next year. So in that sense there is no way Baltimore makes that deal knowing that Rutschman probably has a bounce back age 28 season. They don’t sell low on him now. Baltimore hangs the phone up right away in essentially an Ober for Rutschman trade. I propose selling high on Ryan and SWR for Rutschman, buying low on Coby Mayo, and Buxton insurance/ legit 4th OFer in the form of Enrique Bradfield Jr. could probably get a lottery ticket as well in the form of a Jordan Sanchez or Wilfri De La Cruz. You can then do a Vazquez/ Jeffers rotation with Jeffers and Rutschman with one playing DH or Rutschman playing 1B in the days they’re not catching.

Everything sounds good and I’m on board. Baltimore will never do that deal. For Rutschman it would probably take one of Ryan, Lopez, Mathew’s just to get the conversation started. No way they give up just Rutschman for that package let alone Mouncastle as well.

No.

So the Twins would trade prospects for a slightly better and more expensive version of Jeffers? I’m all for Rutschman and looked into this before the deadline but I don’t see it happening. Keep the prospects. I’d love to see the two of them split time like Jeffers and Vazquez with the other as a DH or 1B. But it’s just as easy for the Twins to sign a cheap glove first catcher. Also, I would think Baltimore wants to do just that same thing with him and Basallo. My dream and REALISTIC spitball trade scenario that address’ both teams needs is-Joe Ryan, SWR for Rutschman, Mayo and Bradfield. Baltimore needs pitching. The Twins need hitting. Baltimore gets a frontline starter and a back of the rotation piece. Twins get a catcher to PAIR with Jeffers. A former stud prospect struggling but with immense power and talent to play 1B in Mayo and a TRUE backup CF/ 4th outfielder in Bradfield who is close. I believe it’s a believable scenario and it helps both teams now.

Interesting. I didn’t think it was a bad pitch but like you said, he seemed ready for it. I’m sure the coaches will see that and something a young guy will have to work on. I remember Berrios had troubles tipping pitches when he came up. I was encouraged despite the box score.