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    How The Twins Could Lose Another 100 Games


    Tom Froemming

    Despite the roster looking eerily similar to the one that produced a 100-loss season in 2016, some Twins fans have taken an optimistic view toward this upcoming season. And why not? It's January, when you're this far away from Opening Day hope springs eternal. Anything seems possible.

    With the amount of youth on the team, it's not completely ludicrous to believe in a turnaround. But what I haven't really seen is anyone make the counter argument that the team could be just as bad, maybe even worse, next year. I'm guessing the main reason is because, well, it's not really any fun. But the truth is it's as easy to come up with legit reasons why the Twins could actually regress in 2017.

    Image courtesy of Rick Osentoski, USA Today

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    It takes a whole lot bad baseball and bad luck to lose over 100 games. Right now, it's hard to imagine the Twins repeating that feat, but nobody was predicting they'd be that bad last season, either. Here are some things that could lead to another 100-loss season for the Twins.

    Ervin Santana fails to repeat (like he always does)

    When pointing to the unaddressed issue of the pitching staff, most of the Twins hope dealers are quick to point to Santana as if he is some kind of bankable commodity. They'll say things like "well at the top of the rotation we've got Ervin, and we know he'll be solid." Really? Ask Angles fans about the reliability of Santana.

    Santana is coming off a great season, but prior to coming to Minnesota he was terribly inconsistent. He appeared to break out in 2008, his fourth season in the majors, by posting a 3.49 ERA. The next year it was at 5.03. He appeared to have another breakout in 2011, finishing that season with a 3.38 ERA. The next year it was 5.16.

    The yo-yo nature of Ervin's production continued in 2013 when he came back with another strong performance, posting a 3.24 ERA. Then came two mediocre seasons. He was great last year, but if the pattern continues things don't look good for 2017. He has five seasons in which his ERA+ has been over 105, but he's never done it back-to-back.

    Beyond Santana's inconsistent track record, there's also the fact that he turned 34 last month. There are only ten active pitchers who've made more starts than Santana's 343, and that includes free agents Kyle Lohse, Jake Peavy and Bronson Arroyo. Father time will catch up to him eventually.

    Jason Castro is a mere mortal

    Many of the optimists point to Castro, the only major addition this offseason, as the sole reason to believe the Twins' pitching woes will be fixed. As if he is a magic wand that will somehow mend basically the same pitching staff that gave up 128 more runs than any other American League team.

    In my opinion, framing numbers should to be taken with a grain of salt. In order for a catcher to intentionally try to steal strikes, it helps if his pitcher has the command to put a pitch just outside the zone. Does the Houston pitching staff deserve more credit for Castro's impressive framing marks? I think it's certainly possible.

    Also, I suspect there may be umpire backlash against catchers who have reputations as plus framers. I do believe strongly that being a good framer is a skill. Castro has that skill, however, the positive impact he can make greatly depends on the guy he's looking at on the mound and the guy behind him calling strikes.

    And I know he wasn't brought in for his bat, but Castro has hit .173/.240/.257 (.497 OPS) against lefties over the past two seasons. Travis Wood has a better career OPS (.522) than that. He's a pitcher. Just sayin'.

    Miguel Sano and Jorge Polanco both look like they should be DHing

    We've only seen limited samples of both Sano at third base and Polanco at shortstop in the majors, but things haven't exactly looked promising. Of 39 players to have logged 350 innings at third base last year, Sano ranked 22nd in defensive runs above average. That's not horrendous, but also not great. Using that same threshold, Polanco ranked 35th at shortstop, ahead of only Alexei Ramirez. Ick.

    Putting them together could be a complete disaster. Whatever upgrade Castro will be behind the plate may be negated by poor defense on the left side of the infield.

    Phil Hughes and Glen Perkins are finished

    In 214 1/3 innings pitched between 2015 & '16, Phil Hughes had a 4.83 ERA. He gave up 52 doubles and 40 home runs. Opposing hitters had an .822 OPS against him. He only mustered 5.4 K/9. That's real bad.

    After the 2015 All-Star break, Perkins had a 7.32 ERA and gave up seven home runs in just 19 2/3 innings pitched. That's real bad too. Optimists are hoping those ugly numbers came because both were pitching hurt. But the fact remains we haven't seen either Hughes or Perkins healthy or productive for a while now. It's possible we never do.

    Brian Dozier regresses (duh)

    Dozier hit as many home runs in the second half of 2016 (28) as he had in any previous full season. He's as good of a regression candidate as anybody in baseball. It would be hard to envision some kind of complete collapse from Dozier, but even if he fades back to the player he was pre-2016 it'll hurt this team's chances of getting out of the basement.

    If the team lost 100 with Dozier going completely nuts, what could happen if he has a down year?

    Max Kepler falls victim to the sophomore slump

    Lost in the jubilee of the Dozier homer derby was the fact that Kepler struggled down the stretch. After the break, he hit just .233/.304/.391. We've seen our share of Twins struggle to make adjustments in the majors and it's easy to forget Max hasn't even turned 24 yet. There may be some growing pains ahead.

    No, Kepler doesn't have some of the same, obvious contact issues that plagued Danny Santana, Eddie Rosario and Miguel Sano, but he also struggled to drive the ball late in the year. He'll need to react to how pitchers will be attacking him.

    Byron Buxton and Jose Berrios fail to materialize

    That last month of Buxton sure was fun to see, but he didn't do much to solve his biggest issues. He still struck out in over a third of his plate appearances. But at least Buxton had a nice stretch of productive baseball. Of Berrios' 14 starts, there's really not a one that stands out as a strong performance. He was hittable (11.4 H/9) and struggled with control (5.4 BB/9).

    Both Buxton, 23, and Berrios, 22, showed us so much in the minors and have impressive prospect pedigrees, but, like Kepler, it's likely they still have some struggles to endure on the road to establishing themselves. I have little doubt all three of those guys will have fine major league careers, but I'm not so sure they all take off in 2017.

    And there we have it, my reasons why the Twins could have another 100-loss season in 2017. I'm sure I've overlooked a few other things that could also cripple the team. If you're willing to take a stroll down Negativity Lane, post your nightmare scenarios in the comments.

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    Featured Comments

     

    This has been the most insightful thread of the Falvey era. It is time for fans to take this front office to task for a shamefully negligent off-season when the 2016 product--which was a lousy joke--mandated sweeping roster reconstruction.

     

    I don't know if you seriously think a front office that's been in place for 3 months needs to be taken to task or not, but it seems a little aggressive to me. What moves would you like to have seen them make? I can see frustration with no real bullpen improvement, but other than that I don't know what moves you wanted them to make. I really would have liked to have seen Greg Holland get signed and there were a few other decent options out there, but with only 2 decent trade chips and a really weak free agent class in the areas that the Twins drastically need to improve I'm not sure what the front office really could have done.

    This is why he should not be at 3rd, where the injury occurred. Sano's value will always be with his bat. If he spends time on the DL due to injuries sustained in the field, the Twins are burning off one of their most exciting assets in the history of the franchise.

     

    They should just get it over with and trade him to Boston so he can have the baseball career that he deserves to have.  :o

    This deserves to be nominated for post of the offseason! :) \m/

     

    Maybe losing another 100 wouldn't be so bad...

     

    http://www.baseballamerica.com/high-school/triston-casas-reclassifies-2018/#kYMge0TwWZqyzqFh.97

     

    “His approach and feel for the strike zone is very advanced and his well above average raw power is as playable as any 16-year-old prospect I have seen since Bryce Harper.”

     

    #BellengerWho

     

    The upside is the high draft picks which can in theory if done properly bring in premium talent.  

     

    Tyler Duffey, Tommy Milone, and Ricky Nolasco made a combined 59 starts last year. The best ERA of the bunch was 5.13. Topping that and losing 100 games again will be extremely difficult.

     

    Duffey is still on the team along with Gibson, Berrios and Hughes.  The best ERA of THAT bunch is 5.07.

     

    How many wins is 0.06 ERA worth?

     

    Duffey is still on the team along with Gibson, Berrios and Hughes.  The best ERA of THAT bunch is 5.07.

     

    How many wins is 0.06 ERA worth?

     

    Heck, why not throw in Santiago and May to fill out the other potential starters.  Best ERA there is 5.27.

     

    Sure, they probably won't be calling up Pat Dean or Andrew Albers to utterly blow everything up at the end of the year again, so there's maybe 3 wins or so right there....

     

    Are you saying that group will definitely perform equal or worse than in 2016?

     

    I'm saying the team is pinning their hopes on that not being the case rather than making moves to ensure that's not the case.

     

    I'm saying the team is pinning their hopes on that not being the case rather than making moves to ensure that's not the case.

    Are they, though?

     

    They had one legitimate shot to improve the rotation: Jose De Leon.

     

    That didn't work out and we don't know who to blame for that non-move.

     

    Given the complete lack of options in free agency, I can't blame this front office for preferring to run with the likes of Gibson, Berrios, May, Meija, Duffey, et al. In my opinion, those guys have the same chance of success as anyone on the free agent pitching market and they're all cheap and controlled (excluding Santiago).

     

    I'm a bit disappointed in the complete lack of action in the bullpen, though. But I'll wait it out and see if they have a plan for Opening Day.

     

    I'm saying the team is pinning their hopes on that not being the case rather than making moves to ensure that's not the case.

     

    What moves were there to make? The free agent class was awful. If you're still grousing about the Twins not taking the low-ball De Leon offer, well then it's only fair to play your ERA game with him as well. His ERA was also terrible last year.

     

    Sorry, but some problems do not have immediate solutions.

     

    What moves were there to make? The free agent class was awful. If you're still grousing about the Twins not taking the low-ball De Leon offer, well then it's only fair to play your ERA game with him as well. His ERA was also terrible last year.

     

    Sorry, but some problems do not have immediate solutions.

     

    Perhaps, but so far we don't have immediate or long-term solutions that have been addressed.  We basically are rolling with the same crew.  

     

    At some point I'd like some immediate and long-term solutions attempted.  Sooner rather than later.

     

    Perhaps, but so far we don't have immediate or long-term solutions that have been addressed.  We basically are rolling with the same crew.  

     

    At some point I'd like some immediate and long-term solutions attempted.  Sooner rather than later.

     

    I think the entire TD community will agree on that.

     

    Perhaps, but so far we don't have immediate or long-term solutions that have been addressed.  We basically are rolling with the same crew.  

     

    At some point I'd like some immediate and long-term solutions attempted.  Sooner rather than later.

    Same here, but we all know the situation that played out this offseason. The Twins had one legitimate trade piece from their pool of position players: Brian Dozier.

     

    They spent a month trying to trade the guy and it didn't work out. Dunno whose fault that was but it didn't work out.

     

    Once that attempt fell flat, what options remained?

     

    They could have traded Santana but that doesn't help their pitching staff, it actually weakens them. They could have traded a prospect or two but, again, it's unlikely that would help in 2017.

     

    Meanwhile, the former front office left Falvey with a raging cluster**** of a roster. They have five-ish marginal young arms and a few established vets, one coming off injury. They retained another marginal arm, probably as a safety net.

     

    I don't blame the front office for what happened with the rotation this offseason because it was a bad situation. My hope is that they aggressively pare down the bad situation throughout the season, something we didn't see with the Ryan front office. If Santiago is awful, release him. If Duffey even hints at looking bad, demote him and get him bullpen innings. If May flounders, relegate him back to the pen. If Gibson is terrible, consider an outright release.

     

    While I can't blame the new front office for inheriting a bad situation, I will blame them if they don't take action to clean out what caused that bad situation as quickly as possible.

    I'm with you on that Brock, I was out saying how bad this offseason looked for talent acquisition months ago.

     

    But because of that I'd really like to be a fly on the wall of our FO.  I wonder what was out there on Santana and Dozier and I worry we may have passed on moves I'd have jumped all over.  This will be an interesting offseason to look back on when we know more about our new head honchos.

     

    I'm with you on that Brock, I was out saying how bad this offseason looked for talent acquisition months ago.

     

    But because of that I'd really like to be a fly on the wall of our FO.  I wonder what was out there on Santana and Dozier and I worry we may have passed on moves I'd have jumped all over.  This will be an interesting offseason to look back on when we know more about our new head honchos.

    Yeah, it's frustrating to have so little information on something we care so much about. We were used to the old front office and how they operated but we have no idea what's happening in the current front office or what to expect on Opening Day.

     

    I merely hope it's not more of the same, though given Falvey's pitching success in Cleveland and Levine's involvement with an aggressive Rangers front office, I don't believe that will be the case.

    Well, next year they'll have only 2 trade assets, again.....so, good luck on that front.

     

    If the FA market is better...will they outbid teams for Ace types? I have my doubts. Full on, very slow, thru the draft, rebuild....since we passed on going over on international (check out the top 100s, and how many are international signings, none of which are Twins in the last 5 years, IIRC).

     

    Well, next year they'll have only 2 trade assets, again.....so, good luck on that front.

     

    If the FA market is better...will they outbid teams for Ace types? I have my doubts. Full on, very slow, thru the draft, rebuild....since we passed on going over on international (check out the top 100s, and how many are international signings, none of which are Twins in the last 5 years, IIRC).

     

    That's my concern too.  If we pass on risky moves because of value, we're basically relying on internal improvements and draftees to save us.  It's hard to see a staff of this age (save May and Berrios) making sizable strides and draftees take time.

     

    So that means we're burning through time we have this young offensive core together.  

     

    I loved the Castro signing, but I really hope we see a plan forming soon.  This feels so much like Ryan's regime is still in charge that it's frustrating.

     

    Same here, but we all know the situation that played out this offseason. The Twins had one legitimate trade piece from their pool of position players: Brian Dozier.

    I disagree with this. With the team's depth of young position players, why is trading one of them for a pitching upgrade not an option?

     

    Dan Straily and Drew Smyly were both recently traded for packages that included one player with less that half a season of MLB experience and two minor league prospects. I don't know if you can find a comparable Twins package to those deals specifically, but I would assume the Twins could put together a similar package to upgrade the rotation. Those are just recent examples, there have been a number of starting pitchers traded this winter.

     

    Obviously, prospects are incredibly valuable to a team like the Twins, but there are already a lot of guys on the roster who are under 25, the farm system is still pretty strong and the No. 1 pick/top bonus pool should mean it's only going to get better.

     

    If your veterans like Dozier can't be used in a trade to upgrade the pitching, at what point do you try to use the prospect depth to improve the staff? Never?

     

    I disagree with this. With the team's depth of young position players, why is trading one of them for a pitching upgrade not an option?

     

    Dan Straily and Drew Smyly were both recently traded for packages that included one player with less that half a season of MLB experience and two minor league prospects. I don't know if you can find a comparable Twins package to those deals specifically, but I would assume the Twins could put together a similar package to upgrade the rotation. Those are just recent examples, there have been a number of starting pitchers traded this winter.

     

    Obviously, prospects are incredibly valuable to a team like the Twins, but there are already a lot of guys on the roster who are under 25, the farm system is still pretty strong and the No. 1 pick/top bonus pool should mean it's only going to get better.

     

    If your veterans like Dozier can't be used in a trade to upgrade the pitching, at what point do you try to use the prospect depth to improve the staff? Never?

    Agreed.  There's no reason not to trade from organizational positions of depth to fill holes.  The only thing I worry about is that you start relying on fewer and fewer of those guys panning out.  With a sketchy track record of hitters coming up and struggling to adjust to MLB hitting, that's a concern.  That being said, you can't be paralyzed as an organization like that.  The pitching has to be improved somehow and it isn't going to all come from within.  Trading some of those pieces becomes one of those means.

    What depth, in regards to young position players,do we actually have? Some of the higher regarded ones have come up and underwhelmed, to say the least, and the ones in the farm system arent highly regarded. The quality isnt there.

     

    We had two good chips to get well regarded pitching. Both will be in our opening day lineup.

    Edited by jimmer

     

    What depth, in regards to young position players,do we actually have? Some of the higher regarded ones have come up and underwhelmed, to say the least, and the ones in the farm system arent highly regarded. The quality isnt there.

    We had two good chips to get well regarded pitching. Both will be in our opening day lineup.

     

    Well, if the position players don't pan out, then adding a pitching prospect or two is pretty much irrelevant . . . the club will be bad no matter what. 

     

    Any realistic notion of contending relies on Sano, Buxton, Kepler, etc. being a successful nucleus. Without that it will be a long, long rebuild.

     

    Your first point is a good one though because a lot of people seem to take the position player side for granted while saying the pitching is hopeless, but I think the difference is a lot smaller than that. It's certainly plausible in theory that by next year, a rotation of Santana, Berrios, May, Mejia, and Gonsalves could be decent. Not really likely of course, but it's possible.

     

    How much more likely is it that all the position players pan out? 

    Edited by drivlikejehu

    Adding young talent is never irrelevent, especially if using good trade chips who wont be around during compeitive periods.

     

    Hard to believe anyone would try and sell the idea that this team doesnt need/shouldn't pursue quality pitching no matter what the circumstance (even if that circumstance is a hypothetical scenario such as position players not panning out).

     

    I disagree with this. With the team's depth of young position players, why is trading one of them for a pitching upgrade not an option?

    Kepler is the only guy I see on the roster that approaches anything near max value right now.

     

    Sano had a down year. Buxton is still a big question mark. Rosario is who he is. Polanco is intriguing but out of options and was never that highly regarded by analysts. I don't see much of a return for him.

     

    And I'm not ready to get rid of Kepler. I think he's been an underrated guy for quite some time and is likely to end up better than his projections.

     

    It's great to say "make moves!" and I'd like to see some roster action... But it's a lot harder to say it when you start putting rubber on the road. Who do you move? And what other problems does that cause in future seasons?

     

    The Twins were a 59 win team with one of the youngest rosters in baseball. It shouldn't surprise any of us that they don't have a lot of max value guys right now.

     

    Adding young talent is never irrelevent, especially if using good trade chips who wont be around during compeitive periods.

    Hard to believe anyone would try and sell the idea that this team doesnt need/shouldn't pursue quality pitching no matter what the circumstance (even if that circumstance is a hypothetical scenario such as position players not panning out).

     

    Everyone likes young talent. That's why you can't just snap your fingers and have more of it.

     

    Is your concern that Falvey and Levine aren't worried about the Twins pitching? 

     

    Kepler is the only guy I see on the roster that approaches anything near max value right now.

     

    Sano had a down year. Buxton is still a big question mark. Rosario is who he is. Polanco is intriguing but out of options and was never that highly regarded by analysts. I don't see much of a return for him.

     

    And I'm not ready to get rid of Kepler. I think he's been an underrated guy for quite some time and is likely to end up better than his projections.

     

    It's great to say "make moves!" and I'd like to see some roster action... But it's a lot harder to say it when you start putting rubber on the road. Who do you move? And what other problems does that cause in future seasons?

     

    The Twins were a 59 win team with one of the youngest rosters in baseball. It shouldn't surprise any of us that they don't have a lot of max value guys right now.

    Can't argue against any thing here. But I came up with a comp to the Smyly package. He was traded for Mallex Smith, Ryan Yarbrough and Carlos Vargas.

     

    I think Rosario is a comparable piece to Smith, if not more valuable. But Smith's main tool is his center field defense, so it's tough to compare the two. If Rosario wouldn't be enough, I'm sure Polanco would be. Not the same position, but I'm sure after trading Forsythe the Rays could use a 2B, too.

     

    Ryan Yarbrough had a nice year at Double A, but he's 25. A former fourth-round pick, a Twins comp to him might be a guy like Ryan Eades or D.J. Baxendale.

     

    Carlos Vargas is a 17-year-old shortstop who played in the DSL. He and Wander Javier were in the same international signing class. Javier got $4 M, Vargas got $1.7 M. So this would need to be a intriguing young international signee, but no one near the level of Javier. I don't have my prospect handbook on me (FAIL!), so I don't have a specific name for this one.

     

    So, for two years of Smyly (career ERA+ of 108 would be best on the starting rotation) would you give up Rosario/Polanco, Eades/Baxendale and an interesting 17-year-old, but by no means your top young guy?

     

    I'd do that in a heartbeat. Maybe that means the comp I came up with is nowhere near as good as the package the Rays got for Smyly, I don't know.

     

    Can't argue against any thing here. But I came up with a comp to the Smyly package. He was traded for Mallex Smith, Ryan Yarbrough and Carlos Vargas.

     

    I think Rosario is a comparable piece to Smith, if not more valuable. But Smith's main tool is his center field defense, so it's tough to compare the two. If Rosario wouldn't be enough, I'm sure Polanco would be. Not the same position, but I'm sure after trading Forsythe the Rays could use a 2B, too.

     

    Ryan Yarbrough had a nice year at Double A, but he's 25. A former fourth-round pick, a Twins comp to him might be a guy like Ryan Eades or D.J. Baxendale.

     

    Carlos Vargas is a 17-year-old shortstop who played in the DSL. He and Wander Javier were in the same international signing class. Javier got $4 M, Vargas got $1.7 M. So this would need to be a intriguing young international signee, but no one near the level of Javier. I don't have my prospect handbook on me (FAIL!), so I don't have a specific name for this one.

     

    So, for two years of Smyly (career ERA+ of 108 would be best on the starting rotation) would you give up Rosario/Polanco, Eades/Baxendale and an interesting 17-year-old, but by no means your top young guy?

     

    I'd do that in a heartbeat. Maybe that means the comp I came up with is nowhere near as good as the package the Rays got for Smyly, I don't know.

    If a deal of that kind can be found, I'd jump all over it... But I'm skeptical a team out there is that interested in Polanco or Rosario. I just don't see much of a market for those guys, particularly Rosario. A team like Tampa likely glances at his swing rate and contact rate and immediately says to the Twins:

     

    http://www.blinkydog.com/wp-content/uploads/Dogs-Do-Not-Want-2.jpg

     

    If a deal of that kind can be found, I'd jump all over it... But I'm skeptical a team out there is that interested in Polanco or Rosario. I just don't see much of a market for those guys, particularly Rosario. A team like Tampa likely glances at his swing rate and contact rate and immediately says to the Twins:

     

    http://www.blinkydog.com/wp-content/uploads/Dogs-Do-Not-Want-2.jpg

     

    Not to change the subject but that pic. reminds me of my lab through age 3.  Crazy crazy crazy. 

    Edited by laloesch



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