How Did Cleveland Acquire Its Top Talent?

Great article Nick.

Terry never seemed to take that all of the above strategy. It was roughly the same approach year after year. The guys we signed on the international front, free agency had low ceilings.

Built the team one guy at a time. They started this effort in 2008--so, not an overnight success.

In the Napoli discussion I will take exception to the statement about "the kind of player Ryan could never find..."--Jim Thome. Who signed for the ridiculously low salary of $1MM.

Built the team one guy at a time. They started this effort in 2008--so, not an overnight success.

 

In the Napoli discussion I will take exception to the statement about "the kind of player Ryan could never find..."--Jim Thome. Who signed for the ridiculously low salary of $1MM.

The Twins won't need 8 years.  They hopefully have most of the offense in place that will lead this team.  We need him to use his past experience to find the pitching staff the team needs to make any sort of progress. 

The Wall Street Journal had a great article on how Cleveland assembled their team. The biggest thing the front office emphasized -- beyond developing two-way players internally which Nick highlighted above -- was in-filling with platoon players. 

 

Brandon Guyer. Tyler Naquin. Rajai Davis. All these guys had significant platoon splits and had positional flexibility. 

 

 

That mindset goes far beyond what the Twins front office was thinking just a couple years ago. When sitting down with TR, I asked point-blank what he thought about building the team with some platoons in mind. 

 

"Not too much," he told me. "I'm too much on platoons. I'm not on that too much. I think we need to have players that can get 600 plate appearances, 500-something plate appearances. Third baseman, shortstop, second baseman, first baseman, catcher, and left, center and right. That's kind of what good teams do."

 

Well, yeah, but if you can't find that guy, you can do the next best thing and give yourself a platoon advantage. 

 

And yes, it requires buy-in from the manager too.

Are you sure that platoon means the same thing to both of you? Old time platoon was 2 guys, one position. So if you ask him about platoons, of course he is going to say no. If you asked him about building a roster with player flexibility you might have a different answer. He did trade for Punto and Gardenhire started him multiple positions.

The Wall Street Journal had a great article on how Cleveland assembled their team. The biggest thing the front office emphasized -- beyond developing two-way players internally which Nick highlighted above -- was in-filling with platoon players. 

 

Brandon Guyer. Tyler Naquin. Rajai Davis. All these guys had significant platoon splits and had positional flexibility. 

 

 

That mindset goes far beyond what the Twins front office was thinking just a couple years ago. When sitting down with TR, I asked point-blank what he thought about building the team with some platoons in mind. 

 

"Not too much," he told me. "I'm too much on platoons. I'm not on that too much. I think we need to have players that can get 600 plate appearances, 500-something plate appearances. Third baseman, shortstop, second baseman, first baseman, catcher, and left, center and right. That's kind of what good teams do."

 

Well, yeah, but if you can't find that guy, you can do the next best thing and give yourself a platoon advantage. 

 

And yes, it requires buy-in from the manager too. 

It's very difficult to platoon players when a team carries the excessive number of relief pitchers like the Twins. Teams can play the match-up with the hitters or with the relief pitchers. Trying to do it with both isn't possible for more than one inning.

After the Rays/Twins trade (Young for Garza), the Rays GM said it was much easier to replace a OF with a platoon than find a starting pitcher.

I know that sounds simple but the Twins were stuck in the 1970s concerning platoons.

Built the team one guy at a time. They started this effort in 2008--so, not an overnight success.

 

In the Napoli discussion I will take exception to the statement about "the kind of player Ryan could never find..."--Jim Thome. Who signed for the ridiculously low salary of $1MM.

Didn't Bill Smith sign Thome?

Didn't Bill Smith sign Thome?

Bill Smith was the GM in for the 2010 season. He "assumed" the title in September 2007 and held it until the end  of the 2011 season.

And Nick, you didn't even mention one of their smartest moves, which was Terry Francona. If he brings only one experience to the table successfully here, finding a good manager wouldn't be the last thing on my list.

Good point by Parker on the Twin's critical deficiency in thinking regarding platooning. A major weakness of Ryan/Gardy/Paulie for sure.

Free Agency has been used sparingly by Cleveland, more sparingly than by the Twins in reality. Hope this tendency makes its way over with Falvey.

If you look at Cleveland's minor league system right now, it's clear they are doing things right, although, with any team, luck and timing are not inconsequential factors. For example, Naquin was the 14th pick, but the second best college position player on the board after Zunino. Before anyone rips the Twins by using this as an example, you can be sure that no GM in baseball would give up Buxton for Naquin today.

Didn't Bill Smith sign Thome?

Who signed Willingham?

Bill Smith was the GM in for the 2010 season. He "assumed" the title in September 2007 and held it until the end  of the 2011 season.

I understand that but you were giving Ryan credit for signing Thome when he was signed by Smith.

Have to disagree just a little bit with the statement that Napoli is the type of guy that Ryan could never get.  Someone else mentioned Thome in response to that statement but actually Josh Willingham's first year here was almost a mirror of Napoli's first in Cleveland, right down to the salary.  Granted, the next 2 years didn't work out so well but I'll take 35 home runs and 110 RBI for $7 million six ways to Sunday.

Have to disagree just a little bit with the statement that Napoli is the type of guy that Ryan could never get. Someone else mentioned Thome in response to that statement but actually Josh Willingham's first year here was almost a mirror of Napoli's first in Cleveland, right down to the salary. Granted, the next 2 years didn't work out so well but I'll take 35 home runs and 110 RBI for $7 million six ways to Sunday.

I think he meant as a final piece for a contender.

Willingham was a nice value, for that first season, but it was just as a band aid during some awful seasons.

Where was a signing like that when, as I think Nick said, we were rolling with Jason Tyner as DH in the playoffs?

Willingham was really a replacement, at a cheaper price, for Cuddyer. He wasn't that finishing touch to get the team over the hump type move that Nick was talking about.. 

There are no secrets to building a winning team. All teams try to pursue all avenues to improve. It all boils down to execution, making good decisions and some luck.

One concern here: a lot of the foundation for this Indians team was built by Mark Shapiro when Falvey was an intern or an assistant in the amateur & international scouting department. Since Falvey rose to more prominent roles in the front office (co-director of baseball operations in 2012, assistant GM this year), the Tribe's acquisitions record isn't as impressive.

In 2012

FA's: Most notably Johnny Damon, Dan Wheeler, and Casey Kotchman. None really panned out.

Trades: Steven Wright to Red Sox for Lars Anderson, who never pitched in the majors after the trade, later thrown into the Trevor Bauer deal. Wright has gone on to post a 3.58 ERA in 263.2 IP with Boston, and was an All-Star this year. Clearly, this was a mistake.

Draft: 1st round pick Tyler Naquin, who just had a fine rookie year at age 25 (2.5 fWAR, 0.9 rWAR), although they passed on Corey Seager, Michael Wacha, Marcus Stroman, Stephen Piscotty, and Lance McCullers in that round.

2013

FA's: Michael Bourn, Nick Swisher, Scott Kazmir, Rich Hill, Jason Giambi, Daisuke Matsuzaka, Matt Capps. They got one good year, out of three, from Swisher. Kazmir had a mediocre season, did better after leaving for Oakland. Hill had a poor season, left for Boston after the year. Bourn was an expensive bust. Giambi was washed up. Matsuzaka and Capps washed out.

Trades: Esmil Rogers to Jays for Mike Aviles and Yan Gomes. This looked pretty shrewd in 2013-14, although now it seems that Gomes may have been a flash in the pan.

In a 3-team deal, they traded Shin-Soo Choo, Jason Donald, Tony Sipp, and Lars Anderson for Trevor Bauer, Matt Albers, Brian Shaw, and Drew Stubbs. They basically swapped Sipp for Shaw and one year of Albers, and sold high on Choo in exchange for Bauer, a highly-rated pitching prospect with control problems and questions about his temperament and character. Four seasons later, Bauer is a #4 starter who will go down in 2016 postseason lore, but for the wrong reasons. As things stand, honestly, it doesn't look like they got great value out of the chips they were holding here.

Jeanmar Gomez to Pirates for Quincy Latimore. A mistake. Gomez has been a good reliever for Pitt & Philly, while Latimore was a bust.

SS prospect Juan Herrera to Cardinals for Marc Rzepczynski. Good short-term value here.

Draft: 1st round (5th pick) on Clint Frazier, rated #53 prospect before this season by Baseball Prospectus, #44 by Baseball America, traded last summer to the Yankees in the Andrew Miller deal. In the 4th round, they picked pitcher Kyle Crockett, who made a splash in 30 IP as a reliever in 2014, but has struggled to stick in the bullpen since.

Lost Hector Rondon to Cubs in the Rule 5 draft. Oops.

2014

FA: David Murphy, Shaun Marcum, John Axford, Jeff Francouer, Nyjer Morgan, Aaron Harang, George Kottaras, Mark Lowe. Murphy did fine at the plate for 1.5 years, although his defense wiped out his value. Axford was so-so, but waived in August. Morgan played in just 15 games, Kottaras played in 10 before he was waived. Marcum missed the season. Harang and Francouer didn't make it out of spring training.

Trades: Drew Stubbs to Rockies for Josh Outman. Traded in one poor year from Stubbs (who rebounded the next year in Colorado) for one meh half-season from Outman (sold for cash to the Yankees that summer).

Justin Masterson to Cardinals for James Ramsey. Sold low on Masterson for a bust.

Asdrubal Cabrera to Nationals for Zach Walters. Again sold low for a bust.

Vinnie Pestano to Angels for Michael Clevenger. Swapped a reliever for a pitching prospect who had a 5.26 ERA this season, in his rookie year at age 25.

Draft: 1st round (21st) on Bradley Zimmer, OF, rated #23 prospect before this season by BP, #31 by BA. Had a good season in AA at age 23, but struggled in 150 PA at AAA.

2015

FA: Gavin Floyd, Bruce Chen, Shaun Marcum, Jerry Sands, Anthony Swarzak... nothing to see here.

Trades: Joey Wendle to A's for Brandon Moss. Swapped a former 6th round pick/middle infielder for a poor half-season from Moss. Wendle had a 69 OPS+ for Oakland this September, at age 26.

Brandon Moss to Cardinals for Rob Kaminsky. Somehow they sold low on Moss to get a 20 year-old pitcher who had been a 1st round (28th) pick in the 2013 draft--and was having a good year in High A. This year in AA, Kaminsky had a 3.28 ERA in 25 starts. Then again, he had just a 6.0 K/9. So his ceiling probably isn't that high.

David Murphy to Angels for Eric Stamets. Swapped the last couple months of Murphy's career for a SS who hasn't done much in the minors.

Marc Rzepczynski to Padres for Abraham Almonte. Their scouts must have liked Almonte, I guess. Almonte is a toolsy guy who occasionally looks good for short periods (I saw him when he came up with Seattle), but may just be a 4-A player. He has a 91 OPS+ in 118 games with Cleveland.

Michael Bourn and Nick Swisher to Braves for Chris Johnson. Cutting their losses, is all.

Draft: Ist round (17th) on Brady Aiken, LHP. Rated #71 prospect by BA. Had a rough time in Rookie/Low A ball this season. Triston McKenzie, RHP, taken at the end of the supplemental round, pitched very well--especially at age 18.

2016

FA: Mike Napoli, Juan Uribe, Marlon Byrd, Joba Chamberlain, Tommy Hunter, Ross Detwiler, Shane Robinson, Robbie Grossman. Napoli was a veteran 1B/DH looking for a team that could use such a bat for a year, and Cleveland got him for $7M. But before we get too excited, note that he put up just a 104 OPS+ (1.0 fWAR, 1.0 rWAR) as a 1B/DH this season, and he hasn't really played well in this postseason, either. The rest of this group is a wash-out, pretty much, and it seems that they gave up on Robbie Grossman too easily.

Trades: J.P. Feyereisen, Clint Frazier, Justus Sheffield, and Ben Heller to Yankees for Andrew Miller. Everybody is really psyched about Miller right now, because he's been so dominant in the playoffs (9 IP, but high-leverage!). But it's worth remembering that the Indians gave up a lot of talent for that relief ace. Frazier and Feyereisen are Top 100 Prospects, and Sheffield and Heller have very strong track records as relievers in the minors. If Miller helps Cleveland win a World Series, great, but in the long run the Yankees probably will be happy with this trade. To put it another way: this is a deal you might do if you're in 1st place and desperate for bullpen help, but it is not something you should ever do if you're rebuilding a club like the Twins.

Colt Hynes to A's for Coco Crisp. Meh.

Draft: 1st round (14th) on Will Benson, OF. Struggled in rookie ball this year, but he is just 18 years old.

So that's mainly what the Indians front office has been doing the last 5 years, since Falvey moved into positions where he could be involved in maneuvers. Who knows, given full authority, maybe he will work wonders for the Twins. He came up in the scouting department, and Cleveland apparently has done fairly well in the draft. But judging from this front office track record of late, I don't see a lot that makes me think, if Falvey just keeps doing stuff like that, wow, the future in Minnesota looks bright.

Seth,

It won't let me reply directly on my mobile . But the two international signings that matter (Sano and Kepler) were under Bill Smith.

The free agent guys Terry targeted were very different than Cleveland. They targeted guys with upside and they platoon them to maximize their value. So those things and the big flips are a pretty drastic difference IMO.

^^^^^^^

That is exactly what you get when you scout prospect stat lines and rankings and not the players...oy.

Edit: Not Tobi - he posted as this was posting!

Like Sano, Kepler, Polanco, Minier, Diaz, Ynoa, Javier...

 

Ryan/Twins current front office did all of those things with the exception of trading someone like Cliff Lee or CC Sabathia successfully. 

Yeah, he specifically talked about Terry's strategy and Terry wasn't GM when Sano, Kepler and Polanco were signed.