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    Do You Need An Ace To Win The World Series?


    Jamie Cameron

    Regardless of how good the rest of their roster is, can a team that lacks a true ace pitcher really win a World Series? Jamie Cameron and John Olson take sides and battle to the death! OK, not really, but the question did generate a great conversation. Make sure to add your take on the debate in the comments.

    Image courtesy of Jake Roth-USA TODAY Sports

    Twins Video

    Jamie Cameron here. If you haven’t been reading John Olson’s Four-Six-Three Blog at Twins Daily, get on it. He’s been churning out some really great content. John is also a great Twitter follow (@Four_Six_Three). Recently he posted a thread which caught my attention, essentially attempting to answer the question; does a given team need an ace in order to win the World Series? So I did what any Twitter secret admirer would do, and slid into John’s DMs.

    "John, you don’t know me, but this thread is super interesting, how would you feel about writing a collaborative piece for Twins Daily?," was my smooth pickup line. John, ever the good sport, agreed, so we came up with a premise; let’s have a debate within an article. Let’s go toe to toe and try to answer the question; do the Twins need an ace to win the World Series? John will argue for, I will argue against. We’d love you to weigh in, and your thoughts on the format. Thanks in advance for reading!

    Ace up your Sleeve: The necessity of a “true” number one

    by John Olson

    Throughout the past offseason, I have been adamant about the necessity of an ace. If the Twins truly want to take the next step, they need to have a front-line, No. 1, ace starter. Assembling a decent rotation, something stable enough to win you some games in a weak division, maybe secure the second Wild Card – well, that’s all fine and well, I suppose. If the goal is to win the last game, it may be a near impossible task to do it without having a true No. 1 starter.

    I think we need to get some semantics out of the way first, before we can make any cogent arguments. There isn’t a good way to, non-subjectively, define an ace pitcher. If you simply define an ace as a teams’ number one pitcher in the rotation, their Opening Day starter, then well, every team in the league already has one. This isn’t true; I think we can all agree. Even with the incredible season Ervin Santana had last season, I don’t think he fits the mold, either. Like Justice Stewart said, in 1964 when asked to define the threshold of obscenity: “I know it when I see it.”

    All right – Get on with it, already

    So, what’s the point, right? Laid out plainly, take a look at the last 10 World Series winners. What do all of them, invariably, have in common? They all either had, or acquired at some point during the season, at least one ace in their rotation. This seems like a very “cherry-picked” piece of evidence – not all teams are built the same. Some teams have had the league MVP, others had a league-leading offense, some the best overall pitching staff, others were somewhere in between. What they all did have is the ability to hand the ball, every fifth day, to an established No. 1 starter.

    Admittedly, having an ace in the rotation doesn’t guarantee any championships – just ask the LA Dodgers – but an ace does seem to be a prerequisite for any team that considers itself a true contender. Plenty of teams, for example the 2014 Oakland A's who added Jon Lester at the deadline, have anted up for the postseason when they felt their window was open.

    Anything can happen in the MLB Postseason, but...

    Bats get hot; bats get cold and the same goes for pitching. Clayton Kershaw, one of the greatest left-handed pitchers in MLB history, has had the label of pitching outstandingly in the regular season but falling flat come October. Some of that’s fair – but push comes to shove, ideally, you’re giving the ball to Kershaw. He’s your Ace. He’s your Stopper. He’s” the guy” that will right the ship. That’s why teams pay out the nose for them in trade, that’s why when they come on the free agent market, they’re a unicorn. If we take a look back in recent history, there isn’t a team which has won it all, without having at least one Ace pitcher.

    The Astros, ’17 Champions, had Dallas Keuchel (who had a 1.67 ERA pre-All Star break), who was hampered with injuries mid-season, felt the need to add another ace-quality pitcher, Justin Verlander, to the rotation. That seemed to work out. Verlander pitched to the tune of a 1.95 ERA in the second half, was the winning pitcher in Games 1 and 4 in the ALDS, Games 2 and 6 in the ALCS. Verlander was a force in the 2017 postseason, and one of the Astros most potent weapons.

    The 2016 Chicago Cubs had a three-headed monster rotation of Jon Lester, Jake Arrieta and Kyle Hendricks. None of those pitchers had an ERA higher than 3.10 during the season, but Lester in particular led that staff in xFIP, K/9 and IP. He pitched Games 1, 5 AND appeared in 3 innings of relief in Game 7 to break the curse in Chicago.

    The 2015 Royals, perhaps the weakest case for "necessity of an ace" in the last 10 years, wanted to add to their arsenal prior to heading into the playoffs. The Royals traded for Johnny Cueto, who had a 2.73 ERA and 113K’s with the Reds in the first half. Slotting him alongside rising star Yordano Ventura and Edinson Volquez, the Royals poised themselves for a World Series run. Although Cueto pitched poorly in the second half of the regular season, he started (and won) Game 2 of the World Series, pitching nine innings of one-run baseball.

    Giants ace Madison Bumgarner had the most impressive overall pitching performance, in my opinion, in World Series history in 2014. Jon Lester (again) led the Red Sox as their number one starter in 2013. Bumgarner (again) pitched the Giants to a World Series win with a 0.00 ERA over 7 IP in their 2012 Series sweep. Chris Carpenter in 2011. Tim Lincecum in 2010. CC Sabathia in 2009. Cole Hamels in 2008.

    All of these pitchers, all aces at that point in their careers. All of them World Series Champions. In fact, 2005 is the last year in recent memory where a group of pitchers – none of whom is considered a true ace – were part of a World Series winner.

    So, what does this have to do with the Twins, exactly?

    In a one game play-in, who do you want to take the ball? Santana was excellent in 2017, but to call him an ace is overselling him. He has a career ERA of 4.02 and a career FIP of 4.24; he has been brilliant in short bursts and he is what he is – a decent No. 2 or 3 starter on a good team. It's wholly unfair to pin last year’s Wild Card loss on Ervin; the entire roster lost that one. I would expect they would say the same. I like Santana; I just don't like him as my No. 1.

    The Twins are sorely in need of a pitcher who, when handed the ball, can pitch out of a jam reliably. Get the strikeout when you really need it. A starter who knows he can depend on his defense, but can also generate those outs on his own.

    As I mentioned previously, Santana had a great season, but his Fielding Independent Pitching (FIP) - out of 58 total qualifying pitchers per FanGraphs – was 43rd. That mark lodges him solidly between Ty Blach, Ivan Nova and Dan Straily. His 4.46 FIP, paired next to a 3.28 ERA, gives a 1.18 point discrepancy – or simply put, he depended heavily on the defense behind him.

    This isn't meant to pick on Erv. He had a good season. He finished seventh in Cy Young voting. But don't be mistaken, he's not an ace.

    Perhaps the Twins are where the Astros were in 2015. Maybe Jose Berrios will develop into that guy, or Fernando Romero or Stephen Gonsalves or someone else. Maybe our version of Keuchel and Lance McCullers is staring us in the face. Whoever that pitcher is, if we expect to compete in October, we’ll need an established front-line guy. Preferably two.

    Aces Low: Why You Don’t Need an Ace to be World Champions

    By Jamie Cameron

    Do you need an ace to win the World Series? Absolutely not. Can the Twins win the World Series without a true, legitimate No. 1 starting pitcher? Yes they can. For this half of the debate we’re going to use a team as a case study – the 2015 Kansas City Royals.

    Who needs an ace when you have a super-bullpen?

    Let’s dig into what most folks remember about the 2015 Royals: their bullpen. The Royals actually didn’t have the best bullpen in MLB during the regular season. What they did have was four guys who could dominate four consecutive innings in Greg Holland, Wade Davis, Kelvin Herrera and Ryan Madson. The Royals bullpen threw the fifth most innings in the majors during the regular season, trailing only the D-Backs, Rockies, Reds and Phillies (who were all average to terrible teams). In other words, no other good team relied on its bullpen the way the 95-win Royals did. The Royals bullpen ranked 17th in K/9 (8.38), 10th in FIP (3.56), and seventh in WAR (4.8). If you isolate these stats just accounting for their top four guys, they tell a more dominant story. Madson, Herrera, Holland and Davis combined for a 9.2 K/9, a 3.02 FIP, and 4.2 of the bullpen’s entire 4.8 WAR, over 243 regular season innings. There’s a recipe for post-season success if I’ve ever seen one.

    What about their rotation?

    OK, everyone remembers, the bullpen was good, but what about the rotation? KC’s rotation must have at least been solid to support an outstanding bullpen. Not really. Interestingly, 2015 was a record-breaking season. There were 2,006 occasions where starting pitchers did not make it through the sixth inning (Twins fans know all about that, amirite?) There are only 2,430 MLB games in the regular season, that’s just under 83% of games where starters are not making it through six innings. By 2015, the bullpen revolution was well and truly on with teams like the Yankees stacking the back-end of their bullpen. The Royals just did it better than anyone else. The Royals rotation in the regular season was pretty poor. They ranked 23rd in the league in WAR (7.9), 24th in inning pitched (912.2), 26th in K/9 at 6.49, and 29th in xFIP at 4.48. Hardly intimidating numbers going into the post-season. As a frame of reference, the Twins starters combined for an xFIP of 4.92 in 2017 (using 16 starting pitchers), and an absurd number of sub-par arms.

    The homegrown, high quality offense

    The Royals did have a really strong offense in 2015 which was anchored by lots of good hitters and an excellent defense. Looking back, there are some pretty obvious similarities between the 2015 KC offense and the 2017 Twins offense. Both were constructed around a young core of talented players who rose through their teams’ minor league ranks. In the case of KC this group was comprised of Eric Hosmer, Mike Moustakas, Salvador Perez and Lorenzo Cain. KC was seventh in runs scored with 724. They hit 139 HR, well below the MLB average of 164 that year. The Royals did rank third in the league in doubles (300), sixth in triples (42) and 10th in OPS (.734). Their offense, similarly to the Twins, was built around a terrific outfield anchored by Alex Gordon and Cain (combined 10 WAR). For comparison, the Twins offense in 2017 was one of the best in baseball, finishing seventh in runs scored (815), 13th in doubles (286), 10th in triples (31) and 9th in OPS (.768).

    An ace in the hole and the story of the 2015 post-season

    Let’s address the elephant in the room. The Royals DID have an ace. On July 26th 2015, the Royals traded for Brandon Finnegan, John Lamb and Cody Reed for Johnny Cueto. Royals’ fans must have been beside themselves at the time. In the first half of the season with the Cincinnati Reds, Cueto had been dominant. In 130 IP, he had a 2.62 ERA, 0.93 WHIP, 2.0 BB/9 and 8.3 K/9. After he was traded to KC, he struggled mightily, amassing a 4.76 ERA and 1.45 WHIP the rest of the way. The Royals may have had an ace, but he certainly didn’t perform like one in that portion of the regular season. Luckily for the Royals, they did have strong performers in their rotation, including Edinson Volquez and the late Yordano Ventura.

    Conclusion

    Cueto ultimately played a big role in the Royals postseason. Yet, even in the highest-leverage situations, his results were mixed. In the unbelievable ALDS vs. the Astros he had one excellent start and one awful start. He had another poor start in the ALCS vs. the Blue Jays, and one incredible start in the World Series against a flat New York Mets team. While Cueto was a bonus for Kansas City, he certainly wasn’t the reason they won the World Series.

    The similarity for me between the '15 Royals and this year's Twins club is their strong offensive lineups and pitching staffs which can keep them in most games. It remains to be seen whether the Twins will have enough depth in their rotation and enough stability in their bullpen to hold as many leads like those '15 Royals. The Royals had an ace by name but not by performance. Their offense and their bullpen was good enough to ameliorate the limitations of their rotation, which was OK, but still better than the Twins rotation. If the Twins want to contend for a World Series, they don’t need an ace, but they absolutely need more depth in their starting rotation. In addition to using the 2015 Royals to argue the case against needing an ace pitcher, for me, they offer the Twins a blueprint. KC's incredible bullpen would be tough to emulate, but the Twins could be on the front end of a trend such as bullpen stacking.

    The conclusion after the conclusion – from John

    We’re in the middle of a paradigm shift in baseball. Teams are tanking, racing to the bottom trying to ensure a high draft spot. Young, controllable talent is the currency of a franchise. The Yankees, Dodgers and other high payroll/large market teams are trimming the fat to get under luxury tax thresholds and the penalties associated with repeat offenders. Raise your hand, and be honest, if you knew about terms like exit velocity, launch angle and heat maps even two years ago.

    The establishment of an ace pitcher as a staple of a rotation isn’t quite as “new age” as some of these things, but it’s there.

    Who do you give the ball to in a must-win game? That’s a no-brainer in Dodgertown. Maybe it depends on the matchup with the teams that boast having two or more of these guys (looking at you, Chicago Cubs/Houston Astros). Any way you look at it, you've got to like your odds of winning when you have an ace up your sleeve.

    What are your thoughts? Is having a true number one pitcher necessary or luxury when it comes to winning a World Series? Let us know!

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    Nah

     

    you just need your 2 and 3 to be better than the other teams' (in the LDS and LCS  and WS).  And this assumes that you are not in a wildcard situation because then you need your number 1 to be better than their number 1...

     

    number 2 and number 3 will pitch 4 games between them.  4 wins are enough.

     

    If that is the case.... then why not have the advantage for 3 games in a row, instead of 2?

     

     

    What you need is for guys to pitch like aces.  And that isn't always your ace.

     

    The 2015 Royals did not have an ace.  (I guarantee you this board would have called Cueto a "good number 2 despite what any numbers he posted say)

     

    2013 the Red Sox "ace" was Jon Lester

     

    2011 the "ace" was the husk of Chris Carpenter

     

    Those are three examples in just the last handful of years.  None of those pitchers would have satisfied people here as "aces".  

     

    I certainly don't think that "this board" is anymore of a collective expert than other sources. Many times, with it's homer tendency, and folks liking to assume collective consciousness, I find it just the opposite.

     

    I certainly don't think that "this board" is anymore of a collective expert than other sources. Many times, with it's homer tendency, and folks liking to assume collective consciousness, I find it just the opposite.

    I suspect most analysts would refer to Cueto as a #2 as well. This board doesn't form its opinions in a vacuum.

     

    Look at Cueto's numbers. Outside of a couple of stellar seasons, he's a full step down from what most people consider "aces": Greinke, Bumgarner, Hernandez, Strasburg, et al. He's simply not in the class of those pitchers, who generally sit with a 3.00-3.50 ERA/FIP, 8-9 K/9, etc.

     

    And that's not even mentioning otherworldly pitchers, mainly Kershaw.

     

    I suspect most analysts would refer to Cueto as a #2 as well. This board doesn't form its opinions in a vacuum.

     

    Look at Cueto's numbers. Outside of a couple of stellar seasons, he's a full step down from what most people consider "aces": Greinke, Bumgarner, Hernandez, Strasburg, et al. He's simply not in the class of those pitchers, who generally sit with a 3.00-3.50 ERA/FIP, 8-9 K/9, etc.

     

    And that's not even mentioning otherworldly pitchers, mainly Kershaw.

     

    And the time being referred to was the end of that (more than a) couple of stellar seasons (2011 to pre-trade 2015 with 2.25-2.82 ERAs ,<FIP not looked up>, and 2010 was really the beginning). He had a rough go with KC to end the 2015 season. But he put on his ace shoes for the WS. You can call him whatever you like for the period. Call him a #3 if you like. He had an untouchable run, and not just for one season.

     

    But we are heading off topic.........

    Edited by h2oface

    I suspect most analysts would refer to Cueto as a #2 as well. This board doesn't form its opinions in a vacuum.

     

    Look at Cueto's numbers. Outside of a couple of stellar seasons, he's a full step down from what most people consider "aces": Greinke, Bumgarner, Hernandez, Strasburg, et al. He's simply not in the class of those pitchers, who generally sit with a 3.00-3.50 ERA/FIP, 8-9 K/9, etc.

     

    And that's not even mentioning otherworldly pitchers, mainly Kershaw.

    He's probably not an ace now, but prior to last season, Cueto had a six season run with a 2.73 ERA, 145 ERA+ over 166 starts, good for 27 bWAR or 4.5 per season.

     

    That's comparable or better than the pitchers you mention.

    Edited by spycake

     

    He's probably not an ace now, but prior to last season, Cueto had a six season run with a 2.73 ERA, 145 ERA+ over 166 starts, good for 27 bWAR or 4.5 per season.

    That's comparable or better than the pitchers you mention.

    True, I always think of him having down years every couple of years but he had a 4-5 year stretch there where he was very good, he just had some injuries mixed in.

    You don't need to have one of the top 10 pitchers in Mlb but you need Two pitchers that are performing like top 10 pitcher at the end of the season. Also along with this you need bull pen that can dominate last 2 innings of the ball game or even the last 3 if necessary. The Twins 3 appearances in World series they had that in pitching. The 65 series they had Jim Kaat and Mud Cat Grant with respectable bull pen but the Dodgers had Two of the top 10 pitchers in MLB so the series was close but Kaat was out pitched by Kolfax in last game really close series. 87 world series the Twins had Viola and Blyleven two pitchers one was top 10 pitcher and other one who had been and was playing there at end of year with dominate 8 and 9 inning relievers. they won the series. 91 world series very similar to 87 with Morris and Erickson and good closing relief also had good third pitcher Tapani.  I look at Washington, LA, Cleveland and Boston having some of the top pitchers but they haven't won world series pitching is important but overall team construction is important too to win a world series.

     

    I certainly don't think that "this board" is anymore of a collective expert than other sources. Many times, with it's homer tendency, and folks liking to assume collective consciousness, I find it just the opposite.

     

    Well, after years of being here I feel pretty confident saying that is the consensus.  We just had people taking issue with Darvish being called an "ace" a few weeks ago.  (Darvish is a much better pitcher and did it in the AL no less)  Of course our definitions all vary to degrees, but we seem to be consistently high in our expectations for what each slot in a rotation should look like.  

     

    We did this for years when we called Scott Baker a #4 and Radke a #3.  We don't have any damn clue what a #1 is or a #5 is.  We all arbitrarily come up with definitions and the vast majority of them are in a fantasy land of expectations.

     

    For me this question comes down to the way it was phrased:

     

    Do we want an ace to help win a WS?  Absolutely.  And there is ample evidence to support it.

     

    Do we need (implying we cannot win a WS without one) an ace to win?  Absolutely not.  And there is ample evidence for that too.  

     

    Best to add as many good to great players as you can.  Which is why LoMo and Odorizzi were great moves.  And why the Twins should make Lynn or Cobb happen tomorrow if they can.

    Edited by TheLeviathan

    Why is there no mention of defense in this discussion? Is defense not an important aspect of winning and losing?

    League-wide, the batting average when the ball is put in play (BABIP) hovers around .300 every year. I suppose a perfect defense would turn everything except a fly ball over the fence into an out, for a BABIP of .000. Even achieving a team-wide BABIP of .200 against you would be stellar beyond belief. Last season's Twins squad had a pretty good defense by most measures. The pitching staff's BABIP was nevertheless .298. So acquiring an Ace who strikes out a lot of guys and doesn't surrender many walks and limits the HR would be worth doing anyway.

    I was curious today about the ACE/#1 debate and decided to look at some numbers. I actually thought about a second thread with my "research" and decided it might get lost in the shuffle and decided it was better to post here.

     

    I chose to look at 5 very specific and well known players, and chose them for reasons that I will explain in a moment. With that being said, and keeping it basic without going in to advanced metrics, here is what I found for your consideration.

     

    Starting with career numbers:

     

    PITCHER ERA AVG WHIP K/9 BB/9 K/BB

     

    A 3.36 .221 1.17 8.54 2.73 3.04

    B 4.02 .251 1.27 7.19 2.79 2.58

    C 3.42 .219 1.18 11.04 3.32 3.33

    D 3.76 .313 1.55 7.10 2.48 2.34

    E 3.78 .248 1.20 8.94 2.07 3.81

     

    The last three seasons:

     

    PITCHER ERA AVG WHIP K/9 BB/9 K/BB

     

    A 3.26 .219 1.09 9.08 2.52 3.68

    B 3.55 .241 1.22 7.11 2.74 2.61

    C 3.44 .228 1.18 11.09 2.88 3.86

    D 4.87 .287 1.37 6.25 2.15 3.03

    E 3.41 .234 1.11 9.99 2.09 4.78

     

    Now the curtain is pulled aside for the reveal:

     

    PITCHER

     

    A: Verlander, 35yo

    B: Santana, 35yo

    C: Darvish, 31yo

    D: Zimmermann, 31yo

    E: Carrasco, 30yo

     

    Why these 5 in a SSS compared to the league? Santana is obvious. Really, the others are also. Verlander has been in the same league and division for years, and there was much debate as to whether or not the Twins should make a move before Houston did. (Note: after an outstanding 2016, his 2017 numbers were slightly skewed with a strong end of 2017 with Houston). The Darvish connection is too obvious to even comment on. Zimmermann was much debated 3 years ago concern being a target for the Twins, and again, is within the league and division the past 3 season's. (Note: His career began in the NO so career stats can be a bit misleading, and I don't believe anyone saw him as a true #1 starter). Carrasco is in the league, same division, and would rank as the Indian's #2, and #1 vs #2 status is something we've been debating.

     

    Conclusions?

     

    Despite some down years, and 35, Verlander has been a career stud. He had a bit of a re-surgance in 2016 and with Houston last year. The Twins may have dodged a bullet with Zimmermann. Sorry to say it, but the Twins may have blown it with Darvish! (Though there remains the debate if he truly ever wanted to come here). And last, but not least, and most prevalent to OUR favorite team, Santana shows a very steady career, and a very fine 3 year span, with our beloved Twins. His numbers also compare somewhat favorably to Carrasco, who is probably a #1 on most staffs, and would be with the Twins for certain.

     

    The debate is there, the floor is open. I think we really missed on Darvish, though there are a lot of unknowns. Santana is not a true #1, but he appears to be a real #2, and it would "appear" his injury is not serious. Berrios should improve this season. At least for 2018, we could conceivably have 2 #2 quality SP.

    You need good pitchers to get there.  Once in the post-season, and offense can carry you...it's been done.  But, I'll still take the 'ace'.

     

    BTW...Ervin Santana's ERA+ last year:

     

    better than Morris's in '91 (also, Morris had been considerably below-average the 3 previous seasons);

    way better than Blyleven's in '87;

    not nearly as good as Frank Viola in '87;

    not as good as Kevin Tapani's in '91.

     

    BTW...Ervin Santana's ERA+ last year:

     

    better than Morris's in '91 (also, Morris had been considerably below-average the 3 previous seasons);

    way better than Blyleven's in '87;

    not nearly as good as Frank Viola in '87;

    not as good as Kevin Tapani's in '91.

    Also better than any of Ervin's 12 previous MLB seasons. :)

    I've been saying this team needs an ace to win the world series and that adding the likes of Cobb or Lynn do nothing to achieve that goal, however I can acknowledge that nothing is absolute.

     

    Obviously it's possible to win without one, but why handicap yourself to such a degree? Go get an ace. Go get the best players, don't handicap yourself, tilt the odds in your favor. Being in a mid-market does not mean you MUST be the underdog every post season.

    "You don't need an ace to win a WS/win in the playoffs/make the postseason" is sour grapes. Maybe 5% of champions didn't have an ace, so this doesn't mean a team without an ace is "built to win." It means the opposite -- it means the odds are against them.

     

    Most of the successful managers -- if not all of them -- in the history of baseball who have written or been quoted about their experiences have all said the same thing: it's all about the pitching.

     

    The Twins spent a nice chunk of cash on pitching this offseason, but they didn't pick up anyone elite. We'll soon find out if they got their money's worth. (It looks to me more like they grabbed 2 more pitchers than they need, and 2 won't make it through spring training...so they're doing a little bit of 'throwing it against the wall to see what sticks.' I'm not sure this is the best plan, but hey it might work out.)

    Edited by Doomtints

     

    Also better than any of Ervin's 12 previous MLB seasons. :)

    True.  Reputation matters...and in that regard, not many around the league would consider Santana an ace, even an the heals of his 2017 performance.

     

    And Jack Morris started game 1 of the ALCS and of the WS...not Kevin Tapani :)

     

    True.  Reputation matters...and in that regard, not many around the league would consider Santana an ace, even an the heals of his 2017 performance.

     

    1) Santana is proof you should never go with the herd when evaluating anything. Make your own decisions and judgments.

     

    2) You say reputation matters ... but then you say people have Santana wrong. Santana has never thrown a tantrum, he has always helped out his team, and he has always performed well. If anyone has an issue with his "reputation" the problem is THEM. Historically, Santana is an ace, it's only in people's minds where he is a #3. Forget that.

     

    I was always high on Santana and I'm not at all surprised by his tenure as a Twin. I'm disappointed others chose to see something other than Ervin when judging him -- and still do. Forget the herd. Do you want to surround yourself with the best, or do you want to be the most popular? This is the question around Santana. The Twins, for once, gave the right answer (albeit for probably the wrong reason -- $$).

    Edited by Doomtints

    1) Santana is proof you should never go with the herd when evaluating anything. Make your own decisions and judgments.

     

    2) You say reputation matters ... but then you say people have Santana wrong. Santana has never thrown a tantrum, he has always helped out his team, and he has always performed well. If anyone has an issue with his "reputation" the problem is THEM. Historically, Santana is an ace, it's only in people's minds where he is a #3. Forget that.

     

    I was always high on Santana and I'm not at all surprised by his tenure as a Twin. I'm disappointed others chose to see something other than Ervin when judging him -- and still do. Forget the herd. Do you want to surround yourself with the best, or do you want to be the most popular? This is the question around Santana. The Twins, for once, gave the right answer (albeit for probably the wrong reason -- $$).

    In game 7 do you want to run Santana out to face Kluber, Sale, Keuchel or Kershaw?

     

    I don't, why does this team always have to be the underdog?

     

    1) Santana is proof you should never go with the herd when evaluating anything. Make your own decisions and judgments.

     

    2) You say reputation matters ... but then you say people have Santana wrong. Santana has never thrown a tantrum, he has always helped out his team, and he has always performed well. If anyone has an issue with his "reputation" the problem is THEM. Historically, Santana is an ace, it's only in people's minds where he is a #3. Forget that.

     

    I was always high on Santana and I'm not at all surprised by his tenure as a Twin. I'm disappointed others chose to see something other than Ervin when judging him -- and still do. Forget the herd. Do you want to surround yourself with the best, or do you want to be the most popular? This is the question around Santana. The Twins, for once, gave the right answer (albeit for probably the wrong reason -- $$).

     

    I don't know where or how being suspended for however much time it was for roiding fits in your assessment and reputation problem, but that is on HIM as far as I am concerned. And once a roider, it is impossible to tell how long he was. They all have a story, and it usually involves it was a mistake, and it was the only time. Sure. Sure it was, right?

    Edited by h2oface

     

    "You don't need an ace to win a WS/win in the playoffs/make the postseason" is sour grapes. Maybe 5% of champions didn't have an ace, so this doesn't mean a team without an ace is "built to win." It means the opposite -- it means the odds are against them.

     

    Most of the successful managers -- if not all of them -- in the history of baseball who have written or been quoted about their experiences have all said the same thing: it's all about the pitching.

     

    The Twins spent a nice chunk of cash on pitching this offseason, but they didn't pick up anyone elite. We'll soon find out if they got their money's worth. (It looks to me more like they grabbed 2 more pitchers than they need, and 2 won't make it through spring training...so they're doing a little bit of 'throwing it against the wall to see what sticks.' I'm not sure this is the best plan, but hey it might work out.)

     

    Of course it's all about the pitching.  But you don't need your "ace" to be the one that pitches that way.  For as great as Kershaw has been, he's largely been a playoff dud.  Whereas other, lesser, pitchers have thrived.  And from year to year things are pretty erratic.  

     

    5%?  C'mon.  50% of the teams in the last 6 years haven't had an ace.  That's just the last 6, your 5% is sort of silly on the face of it.  Even if taken as hyperbole.  

     

    And much of your point is unrealistic about how available and plentiful actual aces are.  I believe we missed a chance at one this offseason (and was highly critical of it), but there aren't enough aces to go around.  And those that have them rarely let them go.  And sometimes when you have one you still get beat.  (See: Johan Santana's run here.  Or Chris Sale last year.  Or, again, pretty much every time Kershaw has pitched)

     

    You should always go get great players when you can.  But you don't need an "ace" any more than you need "at least 40 homeruns" from your 1B.  You need as many good or great players you can get and you need them to show up when the small sample kicks in.

    I don't think you absolutely "Need" to have that ace, but it certainly provides a great deal of comfort and gives the team more confidence. I think the Astros showed that last year after they picked up Verlander. All of a sudden they looked unbeatable. And that proved to be true.

     

    I don't think you absolutely "Need" to have that ace, but it certainly provides a great deal of comfort and gives the team more confidence. I think the Astros showed that last year after they picked up Verlander. All of a sudden they looked unbeatable. And that proved to be true.

    I think that has more to do with a 97-98 win team picking up another very good pitcher to add to an already-stacked roster than anything to do with an "ace".




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