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    Are The Twins Buyers Or Sellers?


    Brandon Warne

    The hottest talk on Twins fans’ lips after the promotions of Byron Buxton and Miguel Sano has been whether or not this is a team that should buy or sell at the trade deadline that looms in a mere three and a half weeks. It’s a legitimate question with no easy answer, as the Twins have hung around in a heavily competitive division.

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    And if you buy into the idea that the Tigers could fall back a bit with the loss of Miguel Cabrera, and that the White Sox and Indians have yet to play their best ball of the season — all distinct possibilities — the Central could get even wilder before the season draws to a close.

    The entire American League is bonkers. Coming into play Monday, the Twins are tied with Baltimore — incidentally, the club’s current opponent — for the fifth and final playoff spot. If that wasn’t enough, 13 of the 15 AL clubs are five or fewer games out of a playoff spot. No AL team is more than 6.5 games out. This hurts buying teams two-fold.

    First of all, any team that is ‘buying’ so to speak needs a seller. The two teams in the AL that are more than five games out of a playoff spot are Chicago — coming off a spending spree in the offseason — and Oakland, whom Fangraphs’ BaseRuns (best explained here) suggests are playing so far below their ceiling that they should be neck and neck with division-leading Houston. Dealing with Billy Beane in July can be a risky proposition for opposing teams, too. The Twins have done it before — Orlando Cabrera in 2009 — but it takes a certain need for each side to find a match.

    The NL side is a little different, with just nine of 15 teams within five games of a playoff spot, and four teams — Milwaukee, Colorado, Miami and Philadelphia — at least 10 games back. Each of those teams have premium talent that could be pried away, with the possible exception of Miami, but that also requires a steep price in terms of prospects — of which the Twins have.

    But the other complicating factor with a team being in the thick of it in a heavily competitive AL race is that even the slightest hiccup can leave you in the dust with a veritable dogpile of teams each gaining ground on someone each night. With that many teams involved, at least a few of them each will win on a given night, making any sort of a slide potentially catastrophic in even the short term.

    And when you look at this Twins roster, it doesn’t appear to be built terribly well for a playoff run. The same BaseRuns concept that suggests the A’s should be a potential playoff team pegs the Twins as having played like a 35-47 team as opposed to their 43-39 mark. Personally, that doesn’t appear too surprising when considering how leaky the team has been in certain facets of the game at times. The bullpen has the ninth-worst ERA in baseball at 3.88. As a group, they’ve fanned just 6.0 batters per nine — dead last across MLB — and are one of just two teams that are under 7.0 in that respect. The vastly improved rotation is in the top half in ERA, but ranks second to last in K/9 and is only about average in terms of groundball rate.

    On the offensive side, it’s been about Brian Dozier and a rotating cast of characters that have picked up the slack at one time or another. Dozier is the clear leader on the team with a 128 OPS+ — OPS scaled to where 100 is average — with Joe Mauer, Torii Hunter and Trevor Plouffe the only other regulars above average — and just by a few ticks. Nothing about the Twins offense — with the exception of doubles, triples and strikeouts — are among the top half of AL teams.

    So you don’t have an offense, starting staff or bullpen that really sticks out. Balanced teams can make the playoffs, too, but it most likely would require some sort of ‘boost.’

    But where would that boost come from, and where would it go? The Twins don’t really profile as a team that needs help in the outfield. Granted, there’s still no telling what exactly the team can or will get from Buxton or Aaron Hicks, but this isn’t a club in a position to shove one of those two aside for a Marlon Byrd, to throw out a random name who will be available. That’s before also considering Oswaldo Arcia — on a seven-game hitting streak at Rochester where he’s hitting .448/.484/.828 — will also probably rejoin the team at some point, too. Is a run this year so important that you can shove aside players who’ll soon be out of options to take that chance? It hardly seems possible.

    The rotation already has a bottleneck with Trevor May squeezed out with Ervin Santana’s return, so there isn’t really a good fit there. Similarly, trading legitimate prospects for bullpen help hasn’t exactly worked out well for this club (or any other) in years past either (Matt Capps for Wilson Ramos, etc.).

    In the infield it would seem only shortstop is open. Jorge Polanco had a really rough first game at Rochester on Saturday, but club sources suggested he was markedly better after some early work on Sunday — his 22nd birthday. If he, Danny Santana or Eduardo Escobar aren’t the future of the position, then a look outside could be merited. That just doesn’t feel like a Twins move either, though. The same can be said for catcher, where Kurt Suzuki has been underwhelming in pretty much every facet of the game. He’s only signed for one more year, so even a starting catcher’s salary could be moved aside if the Twins were to inquire on someone like Jonathan Lucroy. Still again, that’s a splashy move that doesn’t seem to fit the Twins’ usual blueprint, and can also be costly another way.

    And that way is in terms of trade cost. The Twins could move the likes of Polanco, Jose Berrios, Kohl Stewart, Max Kepler and others. Trading prospects makes sense in a lot of ways, considering the attrition rate of the average prospect versus their trade market value, but at the same time the Twins need to rely on the graduation of some of these prospects emerging to help sustain an extended window as the Buxtons and Sanos mature, and need reinforcements to go alongside them.

    So does trading from your depth in the minor leagues actually narrow your contention window? Maybe not, considering the team will have Sano and Buxton ostensibly for at least six years — all of which should be pretty good years for the club, barring some sort of disaster — but it’s worth wondering if making a run at the beginning of their careers — and the end of Mauer’s for instance — is worth pushing all the chips in the middle for. And is that season now? Is the division and league as vulnerable as it’ll get in the short- or long-term? Maybe that is the case, considering there’s no dominating team right now. The Red Sox and Yankees are a bit more down than they’ve been in recent years, and some of the teams who were supposed to take giant steps forward — the Clevelands and Seattles of the world — have failed to step up.

    There’s no easy answer for how the Twins should approach this deadline, but there’s also a fairly good chance that in the next 25 or so days, the team will provide its own answer. If they’re in the thick of it in that last week in July, it’s going to be an interesting deadline for the first time in a long time.

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    The Twins will make a deal - not likely to be a blockbuster.  They will add one or two bullpen arms and I could see a deal for a veteran shortstop - Ramirez or Desmond - for the playoff push.  

     

    Neither of these deals would require parting with top prospects.  

    This team reminds me a lot of the 2001 team.  The team that had good first half but faded, and was filled with a lot of young talent.  No big moves were made that year, unless you think bringing in Rick Reed was a big move.  That move did, somewhat help them the next year, and they gave up an aging vet that did not fit into the future.  I see a similar possible move here, or a buy for this year and next kind of move.  

     

    My main target would be Lucroy.  I think we have the assets to get the deal done without messing up any future.  What do you think the asking price would be?  I think Berrios would be at the start of the talks, if he is in the talks then maybe Arcia(his brother is a top prospect in the Brewers system) and another mid-level prospect, or two lower level prospects.  Maybe Adam Brett Walker be the other mid-level.  I would be willing to make this deal.  Lucroy is signed two more years, at very cheap, and is a top defensive guy, with a decent bat.  His numbers are down because of a injury but would expect a bounce back next year.  Plus, Berrios is not as needed as was before, and the outfield/DH is pretty crowded.

     

    This team reminds me a lot of the 2001 team.  The team that had good first half but faded, and was filled with a lot of young talent.  No big moves were made that year, unless you think bringing in Rick Reed was a big move.  That move did, somewhat help them the next year, and they gave up an aging vet that did not fit into the future.  I see a similar possible move here, or a buy for this year and next kind of move.  

     

    My main target would be Lucroy.  I think we have the assets to get the deal done without messing up any future.  What do you think the asking price would be?  I think Berrios would be at the start of the talks, if he is in the talks then maybe Arcia(his brother is a top prospect in the Brewers system) and another mid-level prospect, or two lower level prospects.  Maybe Adam Brett Walker be the other mid-level.  I would be willing to make this deal.  Lucroy is signed two more years, at very cheap, and is a top defensive guy, with a decent bat.  His numbers are down because of a injury but would expect a bounce back next year.  Plus, Berrios is not as needed as was before, and the outfield/DH is pretty crowded.

    No, Nope, No way.  Good Pitching is always needed.  Berrios should be 100% off limits.

    The Twins are in a different position than most of the other playoff contending teams and buyers.  For one, this is completely unexpected, two they are doing it with young guys who some thought wouldn't be ready yet and three they are overperforming.  If the Twins make a trade they need to make a trade that not only helps them make the playoffs this year but also years into the future.  This should be looked at like a bonus year.  They need to realize this the going to be the first of hopefully many playoff contending years and they shouldn't do anything to jeopardize the future. 

     

    What position are you buying at?

     

    How much of the future are you willing to part with?

     

    this team could add Hamels at a cost of Sano and it's still among the worst of the playoff teams.  I don't think you significantly alter the timeline because the team has overachieved and is a few games over .500.  Minor moves and plugging holes should be looked at but for the most part the roster is set and the youngsters should be gaining experience.

    I've been told the playoffs are a crapshoot.  Get there.

     

    To start with, catcher is a need, and will almost surely be a need in the future.  Why wait?  They need better arms in the bullpen.  Why wait?  I actually like Santana's future, but I wouldn't object to a surer thing at SS, and going forward they need better play from SS.  That might be worth a gamble.

     

    A starter like Hamels wouldn't be just for 2015.  Lucroy would help now and the near term future, possibly more with an extension.  

     

    Fortune favors the bold.  Sitting around waiting for the future doesn't appeal to me, and I don't think it's the smart way to play the MLB game.  YMMV, or course.

     

    Lucroy would help now and the near term future, possibly more with an extension.  

     

    Lucroy would be 31 when he is a free agent.  Do you want to hand him a 4-5 year extension in the $80M range?  Mccann received 5/85 with slightly better numbers.

     

    No thanks.

     

    Lucroy would be 31 when he is a free agent.  Do you want to hand him a 4-5 year extension in the $80M range?  Mccann received 5/85 with slightly better numbers.

     

    No thanks.

    Yeah, McCann is certainly killing the Yankees.

     

    Good players cost money, and they don't often drop off a cliff just because they turn 30 years old.

     

    Or, just roll with Suzuki and something lesser I guess.

     

    Yeah, McCann is certainly killing the Yankees.

     

    Good players cost money, and they don't often drop off a cliff just because they turn 30 years old.

     

    Or, just roll with Suzuki and something lesser I guess.

     

    Well, he had a .692 OPS in his first year of the deal and was paid $17M.  Either way, I would be more worried about $17M commitment to the 33 and 34 year old catcher, or the $15M they may owe the 35 year old if it vests.

     

    And I think we are certainly talking extremes if the only options are Lucroy or Suzuki, I am guessing something exists in the .590 OPS to .800 OPS gap between those two.

    Edited by tobi0040

    I'm fairly certain the Twins could get Stephen Vogt from the Athletics without mortgaging the future. If I were TR, I'd look to make that deal happen, and also for a lockdown reliever. No names jump out at me, but there have to be some. Remember, the hottest team wins the world series, not the best. Otherwise they would've crowned the Nationals in February. I'm confident that if you put the Twins we saw in May in the postseason, they would have won the World Series. The playoffs this year should be our ultimate goal.

     

    Lucroy would be 31 when he is a free agent.  Do you want to hand him a 4-5 year extension in the $80M range?  Mccann received 5/85 with slightly better numbers.

     

    No thanks.

    By "extension" I assume you could extend Lucroy before he reaches free agency.  His contract is very team-friendly now, I wouldn't be surprised if was willing to rip it up and extend it a few years like Phil Hughes did.

     

    Yep. I probably wouldn't do it even if Lucroy was posting a 110 OPS+. With the scuffles of Meyer, Berrios becomes a critical piece.

    I'd be real tempted if there were fewer question marks around Lucroy, and a 110 OPS+ would be close enough to his previous level to remove a lot of question marks...

     

    Mike Pelfrey to the Blue Jays for Dioner Navarro makes sense for both sides. The money is even the same.

    Why does that make sense for the Jays?  With Aaron Sanchez on a rehab assignment, they've got 5+ starters who would be ahead of Pelfrey on their depth chart.  And I doubt anyone is eager to trade for Pelfrey and immediately stick him in the bullpen.

     

    Why does that make sense for the Jays?  With Aaron Sanchez on a rehab assignment, they've got 5+ starters who would be ahead of Pelfrey on their depth chart.  And I doubt anyone is eager to trade for Pelfrey and immediately stick him in the bullpen.

     

    The Jays are pretty desperate for starting pitching help.   I'm not saying they do it, but I think it's a pretty reasonable suggestion.

     

    I'm fairly certain the Twins could get Stephen Vogt from the Athletics without mortgaging the future.

    Pretty sure Oakland would not trade a catcher currently sporting a 145 OPS+ and controlled for the next 4.5 seasons without asking for an elite prospect (i.e. Berrios or Sano) in return.

     

    I'd be real tempted if there were fewer question marks around Lucroy, and a 110 OPS+ would be close enough to his previous level to remove a lot of question marks...

    Cherry-picking dates a little bit, but...

    ...since he came back from the DL on June 1st, he has as a 104 wRC+.

    ...since June 12, he has a 120 wRC+.

     

    Pretty sure Oakland would not trade a catcher currently sporting a 145 OPS+ and controlled for the next 4.5 seasons without asking for an elite prospect (i.e. Berrios or Sano) in return.

     

    If there was a reason to trade an elite prospect, that would probably be it.  I'd probably flip Plouffe for an above average catcher if I could this offseason, but I'd think long and hard if Beane offered him up for Berrios and a lesser prospect. 

     

    The Jays are pretty desperate for starting pitching help.   I'm not saying they do it, but I think it's a pretty reasonable suggestion.

    Pretty desperate?

     

    Buehrle (115 ERA+)

    Hutchinson (3.71 FIP, opening day starter)

    Dickey (2014 opening day starter)

    Norris (102 ERA+, BA's #18 prospect)

    Sanchez (110 ERA+, BA's #27 prospect, on rehab assignment)

    Estrada (108 ERA+)

     

    Who would Pelfrey replace in that group?

     

    No doubt they might like to add a *good* starter, but I doubt Pelfrey would be their target.  He's not even appreciably better than Estrada.

     

    Pretty desperate?

     

    Buehrle (115 ERA+)

    Hutchinson (3.71 FIP, opening day starter)

    Dickey (2014 opening day starter)

    Norris (102 ERA+, BA's #18 prospect)

    Sanchez (110 ERA+, BA's #27 prospect, on rehab assignment)

    Estrada (108 ERA+)

     

    Who would Pelfrey replace in that group?

     

    No doubt they might like to add a *good* starter, but I doubt Pelfrey would be their target.  He's not even appreciably better than Estrada.

     

    You cite opening day starting nods?  Quick.....tell them about Kevin Correia!

     

    They're 25th in the league in starter's ERA.  I don't think they'd be opposed to adding arms to help them, now whether Pelfrey is that or not is a different question.  However, Navarro is hardly asking for a huge haul.

     

    Cherry-picking dates a little bit, but...

    ...since he came back from the DL on June 1st, he has as a 104 wRC+.

    ...since June 12, he has a 120 wRC+.

    I've noticed that too.

     

    And Lucroy's DL stint was just for a toe injury -- doesn't seem like it should be a career-changer.

     

    Berrios straight up for Lucroy is probably a good deal for the Twins, although I am pretty sure the Brewers would want some additional notable prospects -- trading Lucroy would indicate a blow-up rebuild and they'd want some quantity to go with the quality.  And given Lucroy's contract and the FA market for catchers the next few offseasons, they would be in no hurry.

     

    But I'm starting to come around to the idea that I couldn't fault it from the Twins side.  Just like I probably couldn't have faulted them for spending big on Russell Martin.  Their internal catching outlook is bleak, and like I said, the FA market doesn't look promising either.  It's going to have to be a trade, and a Lucroy trade now would provide benefits in at least 3 seasons.... very tempting...

     

    You cite opening day starting nods?  Quick.....tell them about Kevin Correia!

     

    They're 25th in the league in starter's ERA.  I don't think they'd be opposed to adding arms to help them, now whether Pelfrey is that or not is a different question.  However, Navarro is hardly asking for a huge haul.

    Okay, drop the opening day starter notes -- I still don't see them displacing Hutchinson or Dickey for Pelfrey.  (That was my main point -- their two worst performing starters are also two of the most locked-in.)

     

    The Jays adding Pelfrey to their starting staff right now would be the equivalent of the Twins adding Frasor to their bullpen.  Even with Pelfrey, they would still probably be looking to add another arm (possibly to replace Pelf).

     

    Maybe if it is July 31st or August and nothing else materializes.

     

    Greatly enhance their playoff chances? No, I don't think that's the right move in 2015.

     

    But moving Pelfrey for a bullpen piece or trading a #15-20 prospect for an adequate backup catcher might provide 1-2 more wins and keep the Twins in contention.

     

    Given how stacked the Twins farm system is right now, that's not a huge loss and the experience Buxton, Gibson, Sano, Rosario, May, et al will gain by participating in a stretch run (and possible playoff berth) is worth that meager cost.

     

    Make a small move and try to stay in contention but don't give up valuable assets that hurt the team's chances in 2016 and beyond.

     

     

    Okay. You're probably right. That would make me wrong. Dang it.

     

    I would argue with another 7-8th inning guy and a lefty specialist we would be neck and neck with the Royals. The hope is we can find at least one of those internally.

     

    Outside of the pen I agree, most of the young guys are playing really well as well as getting valuable experience.  Guys that will be part of the Twins resurgence the next few years.  So I don't see the benefit of adding veterans to take their reps.

     

    Yeah, you're probably right. Which means I'm not. I hate that.




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