Forbes Article on Twins/IRS

[TheLeviathan]

I'm sure some people heard this on the radio today with Barreiro, thought I'd post the article he was referring to.

 

I know payroll has been an axe I've ground to the nub, but for those that constantly defend the business practices of the team, I'd just such that we be open and honest about things: this is a family of owners that are most interested in their bottom line. By far.

 

It's disappointing that my only way to express frustration with this is to not buy tickets, which only feeds the problem (not improving the roster to the extent of the payroll possibilities).

[The Greatest Poster Alive]

twins daily has learned that a billionaire avoided paying taxes.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Let's see. Rich guy hires appraiser to appraise his asset low and appraiser does it... Bit of a conflict of interest there. Perhaps the law should go hard after appraisers who do that as well. That would likely end that practice rather fast.

[howieramone1406390264]

We should all become White Sox fans.

[drjim]

If this type of behavior even mildly upsets you, I would highly recommend never looking into Wall Street banking practices of the past couple of decades.

 

Carl Pohlad was a miser his entire life, why would anyone expect anything less at his death?

[drjim]

Let's see. Rich guy hires appraiser to appraise his asset low and appraiser does it... Bit of a conflict of interest there. Perhaps the law should go hard after appraisers who do that as well. That would likely end that practice rather fast.

 

This made me chuckle.

[TheLeviathan]

Carl Pohlad was a miser his entire life, why would anyone expect anything less at his death?

 

And yet, when that has been pointed out in the many, many debates about payroll....we hear about 16 different excuses instead. (It wasn't the right time, not the right players, is it really 50%?, it's their money not ours, etc.)

 

Personally, I'm bothered by all corporate profiteering, so I'm not sure how try to minimize this with that reference works. It's just another excuse: "Everybody's doing it"

[drjim]

I'm sure some people heard this on the radio today with Barreiro, thought I'd post the article he was referring to.

 

I know payroll has been an axe I've ground to the nub, but for those that constantly defend the business practices of the team, I'd just such that we be open and honest about things: this is a family of owners that are most interested in their bottom line. By far.

 

It's disappointing that my only way to express frustration with this is to not buy tickets, which only feeds the problem (not improving the roster to the extent of the payroll possibilities).

 

I understand your point here, but I just think this type of article goes so far beyond baseball and what percentage of revenues go into payroll that it is comical to try and make that connection.

 

I would never argue that the Pohlad family fails to makes money off the Twins, but it is probably not much more than a rounding error on a yearly basis.

[drjim]

And yet, when that has been pointed out in the many, many debates about payroll....we hear about 16 different excuses instead. (It wasn't the right time, not the right players, is it really 50%?, it's their money not ours, etc.)

 

Personally, I'm bothered by all corporate profiteering, so I'm not sure how try to minimize this with that reference works. It's just another excuse: "Everybody's doing it"

 

Please don't misunderstand. This type of profiteering bothers me immensely.

[TheLeviathan]

I would never argue that the Pohlad family fails to makes money off the Twins, but it is probably not much more than a rounding error on a yearly basis.

 

Man have I got a bridge for you......

[JB_Iowa]

I'd happily put the rounding error in my bank account....

[TheLeviathan]

I'd happily put the rounding error in my bank account....

 

You might be able to afford a couple Twins tickets for that.

[Craig Arko]

Read The Rich Boy by F. Scott Fitzgerald | 24,137 Free Classic Stories and Poems | FullReads

 

Fitzgerald nailed it.

[drjim]

Man have I got a bridge for you......

 

Perhaps you underestimate just how much that family is worth.

[TheLeviathan]

Perhaps you underestimate just how much that family is worth.

 

Perhaps that's irrelevant to the claim that it's a "rounding error" level of profit they are making on a yearly basis.

[drjim]

Perhaps that's irrelevant to the claim that it's a "rounding error" level of profit they are making on a yearly basis.

 

I assume you are familiar with the term "figure of speech" and how it was applied with that quote.

[TheLeviathan]

I assume you are familiar with the term "figure of speech" and how it was applied with that quote.

 

To be honest, I'm confused as to your position in general.

[drjim]

To be honest, I'm confused as to your position in general.

 

The Pohlads make money off the Twins. It is a small percentage of their yearly income (profit), that is why I called it a rounding error. I think this article/story shows a much bigger situation than anything having to do with payroll, which is often the crux of many debates.

 

Now it is time for my personal conjecture: The Pohlads run the team in a fiscally conservative manner, meaning they aren't going to take significant losses, but rather prefer a decent profit each year. I don't think they are trying to make every single dollar they possibly can off of the Twins. I do believe they try to maximize revenue (like any business would), but I think they will support a reasonable payroll and other expenses (such as park upgrades). I think a variety of factors contributed to payroll being down this year and below the target of percentage of revenue they generally support, but I don't think it has anything to do with a change in philosophy of the Pohlad family. I also believe, and evidence generally supports me, that they run the team in a manner that is consistent with other teams in their revenue bracket.

 

The Pohlad's are filthy rich and like most filthy rich people take advantage of the tax code to minimize their tax burdens. This does not make me happy but it also doesn't surprise me. It strikes me as representative of many of the treads of our society. Because they are filthy rich, they do have the opportunity to pump their own cash into the Twins and operate at a loss. They choose not to do this. It would be nice as a fan if they did so, but I don't think it is a reasonable expectation. Nothing in this article changed any of these thoughts.

[TheLeviathan]

The Pohlads make money off the Twins. It is a small percentage of their yearly income (profit), that is why I called it a rounding error.

 

Do you have any basis for that claim? I'm not trying to be difficult, but that seems like conjecture.

 

I also think there is sizable evidence to indicate that given their new stadium, revenues, and generous publicly funded stadium - their payroll isn't "consistent" with teams similar to them like SF, STL, or Arizona by market size. By revenue, they don't compare favorably either. Toronto, Cincy, Baltimore, Chicago, Washington, Atlanta, and Milwaukee are all 15M or more higher in payroll with similar revenues.

 

Outside of two years, this has been the case for the better part of two decades. Walks like a duck, talks like a duck, looks like a duck....it's a duck.

[clutterheart]

Pohlads are rich. Rich people game the system to avoid paying taxes. More of these type of stories need to shine sunlight into how these rich folks avoid paying taxes while our country bleeds debt.

 

The biggest joke is that the government gave these rich folks so much money for the stadium. Time for the legislators to call investigations into the Twins' business practices.

 

If Sports teams are going to beg the government for money its time they bear the brunt of a full rectal ripping audit.

[drjim]

Pohlads are rich. Rich people game the system to avoid paying taxes. More of these type of stories need to shine sunlight into how these rich folks avoid paying taxes while our country bleeds debt.

 

The biggest joke is that the government gave these rich folks so much money for the stadium. Time for the legislators to call investigations into the Twins' business practices.

 

If Sports teams are going to beg the government for money its time they bear the brunt of a full rectal ripping audit.

 

I can support all of this.

[drjim]

Do you have any basis for that claim? I'm not trying to be difficult, but that seems like conjecture.

 

I also think there is sizable evidence to indicate that given their new stadium, revenues, and generous publicly funded stadium - their payroll isn't "consistent" with teams similar to them like SF, STL, or Arizona by market size. By revenue, they don't compare favorably either. Toronto, Cincy, Baltimore, Chicago, Washington, Atlanta, and Milwaukee are all 15M or more higher in payroll with similar revenues.

 

Outside of two years, this has been the case for the better part of two decades. Walks like a duck, talks like a duck, looks like a duck....it's a duck.

 

I would imagine your conclusions would look different if you took a four year average for payroll as opposed to only this year. This debate can go in circles but four years is probably not enough of a sample of data either way.

 

I don't think the Metrodome is a fair comparison and I also think market size is of less importance than TV contracts, which is a bigger driver of revenue than even stadiums.

[IdahoPilgrim]

I guess I'm not sure why this article is something to get so worked up about. As somebody who has just gone through an estate tax situation, which did involve some negotiation with taxing authorities about a couple of points (although not to the level we see here:)) this is just how the system works. Lawyers for the estate put forth one number, officials for the taxing authority put forth another, and usually (sometimes after a lawsuit is filed or a delinquent tax bill is sent) a number is negotiated that both sides can live with. This is not unique to the Pohlad's; this is how it works for every large estate. It also happens in annual income taxes, too.

 

This is not greed - it is just how the system works.

 

I guess I also don't see how the estate tax valuation has any relation to payroll, which seems to be where the thread has gone.

[TheLeviathan]

I would imagine your conclusions would look different if you took a four year average for payroll as opposed to only this year.

 

How about instead we say over the course of Ryan's career? In which case, yes, it would be different. It would be far, far more evident what I'm saying.

 

As for your comment about TV contracts. St. Louis makes half as much money per year as the Twins do...I don't hear that as an excuse for them.

[drjim]

How about instead we say over the course of Ryan's career? In which case, yes, it would be different. It would be far, far more evident what I'm saying.

 

As for your comment about TV contracts. St. Louis makes half as much money per year as the Twins do...I don't hear that as an excuse for them.

 

But your link show higher revenues for St. Louis compared to the Twins. I can't imagine that is stadium driven.

 

And you are going to suggest that the Metrodome years have anything to do with thia discussion?

[TheLeviathan]

But your link show higher revenues for St. Louis compared to the Twins. I can't imagine that is stadium driven.

 

And you are going to suggest that the Metrodome years have anything to do with thia discussion?

 

Twins make 29M per year for TV. St. Louis makes 14M.

 

I'm simply suggesting the Twins have always been a bit beyond just "conservative" with their payroll vs. revenue comparison. Regardless of how low the revenues were. (Because, in case you forgot, we had some Miami Marlins-like payrolls) It's always been profit driven to the point of hurting the on-field product, it's why we almost went extinct at one point.

[nicksaviking]

The article disturbs me but then I consider that Carl Pohlad was a despicable human being so this is no shock to me. The man made his fortune during the great depression by buying up mortgages on the brink of foreclosure and then proceeded to take the homes and farms of the poor the second they were late on a payment. Carl Pohlad was the villain in The Grapes of Wrath. That such a terrible man was allowed to walk the earth as long as he did proves there is no such thing as Karma.

[howieramone1406390264]

Twins make 29M per year for TV. St. Louis makes 14M.

 

I'm simply suggesting the Twins have always been a bit beyond just "conservative" with their payroll vs. revenue comparison. Regardless of how low the revenues were. (Because, in case you forgot, we had some Miami Marlins-like payrolls) It's always been profit driven to the point of hurting the on-field product, it's why we almost went extinct at one point.

That's not what happened at all. But I'm not interested enough to argue about it. I come here to talk baseball and this isn't baseball.

[TheLeviathan]

That's not what happened at all. But I'm not interested enough to argue about it. I come here to talk baseball and this isn't baseball.

 

I'm sure Pohlad was trying to contract us out of mercy then. I'm sure it had nothing to do with not making enough money. In any case, if you don't like this thread, you aren't being held hostage to reply sir.

[TheLeviathan]

I guess I also don't see how the estate tax valuation has any relation to payroll, which seems to be where the thread has gone.

 

It's a very clear reflection of how our ownership does business. Cheap. We have some people that will defend that notion pretty staunchly, plus it was the source of quite a bit of conversation on sports radio today for that very reason.

 

Payroll is a reflection of the commitment of ownership to on-field product. So it shouldn't be shocking with evidence like this that the commitment is more to frugality and profit than it is to on-field success.