Shortstop to Utility: Examining the Twins' Prospect Development Approach

[DocBauer]

58 minutes ago, ashbury said:

It's even worse, by a few months, than you say, because when they sent him to the Arizona Fall League the off-season after they acquired him, he still was playing the majority of his innings at SS, with only 5 games in CF.  This mistake is seared into my memory because it was one of the years I made the trip. Next season begins in October, for the prospects.

It's frustrating for a long-time fan like me, who has very little inside-baseball knowledge, to feel like the professional talent evaluators were slower to reach the right conclusion.  I would love to know what they were thinking - what they were seeing that I didn't.  Better than the average human being at the necessary skills, sure; but good enough compared to other candidates?

I hear ya. The FO, Rocco, and the coaches have forgotten more than most of ever know about MLB, or baseball in general. But once in a while something seems so OBVIOUS that you have to scratch your head and wonder what's going on? 

Using Martin specifically...and I'm NOT picking on the kid...were they just mistaken about how easily he could move to the OF? By the time of your visit to the AFL, shouldn't they have realized SS wasn't in his future and moved him to the OF? Or maybe spend the majority of his time at 2B/3B? Did they really think more time at SS would help him at 2B/3B?

It does make one wonder sometimes.

[ashbury]

17 minutes ago, DocBauer said:

Did they really think more time at SS would help him at 2B/3B?

They obviously did.  However one play, an easy double-play grounder, was enough to convince me otherwise.  The experts labored under the heavy disadvantage of having seen more of him.  😀

[Linus]

18 minutes ago, ashbury said:

They obviously did.  However one play, an easy double-play grounder, was enough to convince me otherwise.  The experts labored under the heavy disadvantage of having seen more of him.  😀

Even more concerning, I recall FO types saying that he was already a mlb ready outfielder.  This was when he was still getting reps at SS.  That is some seriously poor player evaluation as he is not close to that.  If you want him to be at least average somewhere it has to be 2b or left field.  His arm is just not good enough to be decent in CF or any other infield spot.

[ashbury]

6 minutes ago, Linus said:

Even more concerning, I recall FO types saying that he was already a mlb ready outfielder.  This was when he was still getting reps at SS.  That is some seriously poor player evaluation as he is not close to that.  If you want him to be at least average somewhere it has to be 2b or left field.  His arm is just not good enough to be decent in CF or any other infield spot.

His arm isn't adequate for the most demanding positions, and yet the plays that stand out for me involve failings between the ears, and I dislike ever saying that.  The AFL double-play ball I mentioned was a little underhand toss.  There was a delayed decision on a throw to home this past season that cost a run.  Those two stand out to me and I don't have positive memories on defense to balance that out for him.

[DocBauer]

15 minutes ago, ashbury said:

His arm isn't adequate for the most demanding positions, and yet the plays that stand out for me involve failings between the ears, and I dislike ever saying that.  The AFL double-play ball I mentioned was a little underhand toss.  There was a delayed decision on a throw to home this past season that cost a run.  Those two stand out to me and I don't have positive memories on defense to balance that out for him.

Some guys have awareness and/or instincts and some don't. Correa, for instance, has amazing instincts. Some guys don't have it. A great athlete doesn't necessarily have good instincts. 

[RpR]

37 minutes ago, DocBauer said:

Some guys have awareness and/or instincts and some don't. Correa, for instance, has amazing instincts. Some guys don't have it. A great athlete doesn't necessarily have good instincts. 

Some players have natural talent, for a task,  some can work their way up, the those with natural talent do not have handicaps to over come.

A great athlete -- athlete at what?

[DocBauer]

45 minutes ago, RpR said:

Some players have natural talent, for a task,  some can work their way up, the those with natural talent do not have handicaps to over come.

A great athlete -- athlete at what?

Natural athletes don't have things/handicaps to overcome? 

Have I quoted you accurately? 

If I have, many is the college athlete, even high "star" talents who are great athletes who never become great players. Many great athletes are selected in the MLB draft, or signed as international FA, who never turn out to be ML players. 

SOME have limited athletic ability when it comes to PRO sports, but work their tail off to become something. Arraez would be an example. 

But being a great athlete doesn't mean you will make it, or have a long career, much less be a difference maker. Martin reaching MLB is a success in doing so. But just being a great athlete doesn't mean you find success. While I have hope Martin will figure something out to be a competent hitter and defender, and allowing for him being a rookie and a weird development curve that more than a few prospects had "around" the lost 2020 covid season, he really hasn't shown anything thus far but brief glimpses as to any kind of BAT performer. And his potential defense has been suspect at best so far.

I recall when he had about a 1/3-1/2 season of hitting success in 2023 at AAA where a lot of posters had him penciled is as a major contributor for 2024. I never understood that. 

I don't dislike the kid, I don't wish ill will to the kid, and I wish his athleticism would allow him to raise his offense and defense up another level or two and surprise the hell out of us in 2025.

But just being athletic doesn't mean you can play ML defense or hit at that level.

Or did I misundstand your comment?

[bean5302]

The primary reason, under this front office, that the Twins have been unable to develop defensively valuable shortstops is because this front office does not value defense or know how to coach it.

Royce Lewis is a perfect example. Lewis has both the arm and the range to cover the position, yet he has well documented throwing issues. Trevor Plouffe is on record talking about being perplexed at how the Twins have been unable to address the issues, and how the Twins have mishandled Lewis. Obviously, that's just Plouffe's opinion, but if the front office apologists are going to talk about all the knowledge Baldelli and the front office have, a guy who played SS at the MLB in the current analytics era (Plouffe) would be considered valuable.

It's clear the front office doesn't value defense. They don't draft defense first players at high levels, and they certainly don't develop defensive skills well (at any position). This front office values the bat and tools. For the most part, tools = defense to the Twins. It's like a spreadsheet or AI screening tool for job qualifications. 
Twins Center Fielder opening. Job Requirements: Speed tool 55 grade. Arm tool 50 grade. If you meet these qualifications, apply for the opening today!

[RpR]

18 hours ago, DocBauer said:

Natural athletes don't have things/handicaps to overcome? 

Have I quoted you accurately? 

If I have, many is the college athlete, even high "star" talents who are great athletes who never become great players. Many great athletes are selected in the MLB draft, or signed as international FA, who never turn out to be ML players. 

SOME have limited athletic ability when it comes to PRO sports, but work their tail off to become something. Arraez would be an example. 

But being a great athlete doesn't mean you will make it, or have a long career, much less be a difference maker. Martin reaching MLB is a success in doing so. But just being a great athlete doesn't mean you find success. While I have hope Martin will figure something out to be a competent hitter and defender, and allowing for him being a rookie and a weird development curve that more than a few prospects had "around" the lost 2020 covid season, he really hasn't shown anything thus far but brief glimpses as to any kind of BAT performer. And his potential defense has been suspect at best so far.

I recall when he had about a 1/3-1/2 season of hitting success in 2023 at AAA where a lot of posters had him penciled is as a major contributor for 2024. I never understood that. 

I don't dislike the kid, I don't wish ill will to the kid, and I wish his athleticism would allow him to raise his offense and defense up another level or two and surprise the hell out of us in 2025.

But just being athletic doesn't mean you can play ML defense or hit at that level.

Or did I misundstand your comment?

A player who has a natural talent at any position , does not have the handi-cap , to over come, of having to learn how to play WELL at which ever postition he is a natural at.

Athletic means nothing other than the person was born with a natural physique for doing physical activities.

Has zero to do with where he has a born talent , or level of talent, he was born with.

A person could be a champion runner, tennis player, wrestler but not have the talent to be even an average baseball player; he may be a great athlete but stink at baseball.