When the window's open........

[jokin]

Well, he was pretty flipping awful those first few starts.......

 

.......Because he didn't have much of a spring training and was coming off a preseason leg injury. Since May 10, his ERA has dropped significantly from 8.59 to 5.76- it was actually below 5.00 before his last couple of clinkers--- and with that said, still, he's striking guys out at Career High levels, meanwhile his season FIP is a stellar 3.27, nearly a full run below his career average and that reveals that his overall 2013 season ERA is a very poor indicator on his true effectiveness this season.

[jokin]

Which is the problem with small sample sizes and getting to pitch against the Marlins twice to say how well someone is pitching. Marcum gives up the big inning. Every other number will look great but the ERA.

 

Still better than Carreia- who ducked out on pitching at Detroit- to get the Brewers, instead 2 days later, Marucm is particularly superior with the FIP.

[jokin]

Which is the problem with small sample sizes and getting to pitch against the Marlins twice to say how well someone is pitching. Marcum gives up the big inning. Every other number will look great but the ERA.

 

I checked Correia's game log- he too, has a Marlins game, to go along with a reeling Brewers and punchless Royals game, oh, he also has not 1, but 2 games against the White Sox, who are the 29th-rated team in hitting, just one place above Miami. Try again on your rationalizations.

[ThePuck]

I checked Correia's game log- he too, has a Marlins game, to go along with a reeling Brewers and punchless Royals game, oh, he also has not 1, but 2 games against the White Sox, who are the 29th-rated team in hitting, just one place above Miami. Try again on your rationalizations.

 

Don't forget the punchless Philles.

[old nurse]

I checked Correia's game log- he too, has a Marlins game, to go along with a reeling Brewers and punchless Royals game, oh, he also has not 1, but 2 games against the White Sox, who are the 29th-rated team in hitting, just one place above Miami. Try again on your rationalizations.

My isn't that nice.

The comments were on Marcum because they were touting his effectiveness over the last month. Aspects of his pitching have been great for Marcum. The end result though has not been. The issue is small sample size. The numbers have trended a certain direction. Would have they done so if he faced Saint Louis or Colorado twice? Don't know one way or another. When the Mets go on a road trip the world will find out. If you have more time to kill you can also discover that I was on the side of the Twins should sign Marcum.

[UCLA_YANKEE_COLA]

You're supposed to pitch well against bad teams. Why is that a knock on a guy? Look at Verlander's game log - gets beat up by the Yankees, Orioles, Rangers, Indians and beats up on the same teams all other pitchers beat up on. That's the way it works.

 

If we're really arguing about the difference between Kevin (swear word) Correia and Shaun (swear word) Marcum - we all lose.

[Kwak]

If Terry Ryan choses organizational suicide, he has the chips to trade for top starting pitching anytime he so desires. If you want him to retain all his top prospects and spent like a drunken sailor in the free agent market, it's just not going to happen.

..."and retain all of [the] top prosects." How about those "top prospects" that were acquired from '04-'09 when the Twins were looking for SP for, '10,'11, and '12? Several have been waived, some failed at the ML level, some are marginal though still at the ML level. "..spent like a drunken sailor"? I don't know what your level is for "drunken sailor spending" but it sounds like whatever exceeds league salary average.

[drjim]

It usually helps when you type a statement out that you actually glance at the numbers beforehand. Marcum, without a spring training per se, actually has been better than Correia since May1 before last night (I haven't glanced at KC's updated numbers...there's an assignment right there....paging drjim!).

 

I just glanced at his season totals, they weren't all that great.

 

I would also state that I wanted Marcum in the offseason and wasn't all that thrilled with the Correia signing. On the flip side, Marcum has already missed a month, which solid numbers in the past month or not, is a major strike against a guy on a one year deal.

[drjim]

I checked Correia's game log- he too, has a Marlins game, to go along with a reeling Brewers and punchless Royals game, oh, he also has not 1, but 2 games against the White Sox, who are the 29th-rated team in hitting, just one place above Miami. Try again on your rationalizations.

 

So you are going to use every tool you can to criticize Correia while doing everything you can to defend Marcum. I for one appreciate your continued balanced approach to analysis.

 

I would say again that I preferred the Twins signed Marcum and McCarthy this offseason, but the Twins probably made a better move by taking a guy who hasn't gotten hurt.

[johnnydakota]

I wonder what the Twins would be like if ownership was committed first and foremost to winning, rather than financial security.

 

Nailed......(wait for it).......It

[johnnydakota]

A number of those options are based off how the team has performed recently. Not far in the past, fans of those clubs were calling for their GMs to be fired. Sabean (2005-2008), Dombrowski (2005, 2008) in specific. It wasn't too long ago that the Twins were the model franchise and receiving praise from the front office on down.

 

And every thing stays the same? Nothing changes? Pitch to contact is still concidered the way to go? And it was a long time ago.....

[launchingthrees]

It would be incredible if people stopped showing up for games if the payroll continues to be at 30-35% of revenue. I can't blame the twins at all for continuing to take their profits. I blame the apologist fans that keep purchasing the products of a business that puts a poor product on the field.

 

Luckily they've been in a historically bad division so it appears to fans they've had a lot of good seasons. In reality they would have missed the playoffs nearly every year in a fairer playoff system.

[johnnydakota]

They did pick up players. Reed, Stewart, and then... mostly crap, really. Maybe I'm forgetting someone. Ryan was too cautious in the second half of the 2000s, IMO.

 

I'm not against trading any prospect. I think it's a good idea to occasionally let a B or C prospect go to boost that year's team. Not every season, but it won't kill you if you do it every so often.

 

But after posting on Twins forums for the past 14 seasons, there are many people who think it's a good idea to trade someone like Buxton for a run at 2014 (supposing the Twins are in contention in 2014).

 

And that's just dumb. And it rarely works out for anyone other than the team receiving the prospect in return for the veteran.

 

agreeing, like trading JJ Hardy , for who?

how did that work out?

[johnnydakota]

Has Ryan's approach stopped working? He left a winning team and came back to an awful one that is now improving. In 2-3 years, I think we'll be able to say whether his approach has stopped working.

 

Now, I'm not agreeing with everything the man has done. I hated the free agent pickups this offseason. I don't like the fact that Gibson isn't on the roster right now. There are plenty of things I don't like about this team right now and there are plenty of things I don't understand.

 

But I'm not going to confuse "lack of information" with "that person has no game plan". It's a bit presumptuous.

 

Ryan did not leave...he was the senor advisor, he was deffered to on most if not all player transactions.....And now what does he do? he signs a pitcher 11 months removed from T.J. surgery, to a 1 year contract, no option no 2nd year and he pays over 6% of the teams payroll to do it...If Pelfrey improves enough to be traded, what do we recieve for a sore armed rental player? Terry takes money signs crap and turns it into a debit....Most general managers take money and turn them into assets...

[johnnydakota]

During his tenure, for sure. His last few drafts were pretty bad.

 

That also tends to happen when you pick in the bottom ten nearly every season for 5-6 years.

 

The real question is whether Ryan would have adjusted his approach had he stayed as GM. And we'll never know for sure because he left the position.

 

But now that he's back, it's pretty hard to complain about his drafts thus far. They've been pretty bold and different.

 

Bull crunch .... he screwed the pooch or should i say his employee johnson screwed the pooch ...

[johnnydakota]

Oddly enough, the Twins did rather well in later rounds. It was the first round that killed them, as strange as that seems.

 

Teams have bad runs of drafts. It happens to even the best front offices. We could speculate all day on whether Ryan would have rebounded from those drafts but I just don't see the point. I'd prefer to talk about what he's doing now... and so far, it looks pretty good on the draft front.

 

Yup drafting 2nd and 4th didnt have any thing to do with it either did it?

[Brock Beauchamp]

Yup drafting 2nd and 4th didnt have any thing to do with it either did it?

 

The Twins drafted both Buxton and Berrios with the second pick last year? How'd they pull that off?

[Brock Beauchamp]

Ryan did not leave...he was the senor advisor, he was deffered to on most if not all player transactions.....

 

You have no evidence that this was the case and you have been warned about it in the past.

 

Ryan surely played parts in various trades and acquisitions but there is no evidence that he was "deferred to" on anything.

 

Stop. Just stop.

[drjim]

It would be incredible if people stopped showing up for games if the payroll continues to be at 30-35% of revenue. I can't blame the twins at all for continuing to take their profits. I blame the apologist fans that keep purchasing the products of a business that puts a poor product on the field.

 

Luckily they've been in a historically bad division so it appears to fans they've had a lot of good seasons. In reality they would have missed the playoffs nearly every year in a fairer playoff system.

 

Attendance is down. Most fans care about the quality of the product not the exact payroll amount or what percent of revenues that equates to.

[drjim]

You have no evidence that this was the case and you have been warned about it in the past.

 

Ryan surely played parts in various trades and acquisitions but there is no evidence that he was "deferred to" on anything.

 

Stop. Just stop.

 

Why does evidence matter? If you keep repeating something it eventually becomes true.

[ThePuck]

The Twins drafted both Buxton and Berrios with the second pick last year? How'd they pull that off?

 

Quick question. Where was Berrios ranked on most draft boards? My memory may be failing, and probably is in this instance, but wasn't it said that we reached to get him and could have gotten him a pick or two later? Again, not sure, that's why I'm asking.

 

edit. I just looked at a mock draft from that year that had him as the 47th pick going to Oakland, which was after our 3rd pick.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Quick question. Where was Berrios ranked on most draft boards? My memory may be failing, and probably is in this instance, but wasn't it said that we reached to get him and could have gotten him a pick or two later? Again, not sure, that's why I'm asking.

 

I'm definitely not the draft expert around here but I thought he was pegged more mid-to-late second round by most. I could be wrong, though... Memory hazy. I have the impression that the Twins reached a bit to get him but that it was far from guaranteed that he'd be available through the second round.

[johnnydakota]

You have no evidence that this was the case and you have been warned about it in the past.

 

Ryan surely played parts in various trades and acquisitions but there is no evidence that he was "deferred to" on anything.

 

Stop. Just stop.

 

No evidence , just a couple articles i have read 1 on Pucketts Pond another in SB nation.

Riddle me this Mr Brock , what is the job discription for senor advisor to the General manager? to fetch coffee?

[gil4]

Four years ago, the Twins would have been included on that list? Why? Because they were winning. That list is not constructed by philosophy, attitude, or any other metric not called "winning".

Even when the Twins were winning, there were criticisms for obvious failures to maximize talent. At the time, how many people liked the Young/Harris for Garza/Bartlett trade? Very few. How long did Aaron have his "Free Johan" campaign before Johan ended up in the rotation? I don't remember exactly, but it was a while. There were many players that the blogosphere identified as needing an upgrade that management took years to do - Rivas is the main one that comes to mind. How many were on board for the Capps-Ramos trade? Capps re-signing for $7M? How about Punto at 2yrs/$8M? Hardy for Hoey? Nishi was intriguing because nobody knew anything about him, but even those who thought he might be good didn't like the risk of going with him after letting an underrated player like Hardy go.

 

I know we have a lot of great memories of those Twins teams, but there are a lot of "what could have been" and "what should have been" stains on those memories, too. And there are too many times where hindsight has favored what the bloggers and number-crunchers said at the time, not the management view.

[johnnydakota]

The Twins drafted both Buxton and Berrios with the second pick last year? How'd they pull that off?

 

They had how many picks in the first 70 selections?

And the reason why, because they let players walk.

Instead of signing or trading them,and because we lost a butt load of games

Thats how we pulled that off, my friend

[Joe A. Preusser]

I wonder what the Twins would be like if ownership was committed first and foremost to winning, rather than financial security.

 

Probably like any failing business.

[Brock Beauchamp]

No evidence , just a couple articles i have read 1 on Pucketts Pond another in SB nation.

Riddle me this Mr Brock , what is the job discription for senor advisor to the General manager? to fetch coffee?

 

You're the one making assumptions and declarations without evidence. Ryan played a capacity in the drafting and trading of players, no doubt. I said that in my original response.

 

But "played a role" is far different than "was deferred to on every decision and therefore gets the blame because I WANT to blame him". If you can't see the problem between those differences, I don't know what to say. You're basically claiming that Ryan was the GM, even though he... retired from being the GM. It's unsubstantiated and nonsensical.

[Guest USAFChief]

Probably like any failing business.

 

Can you provide some examples of MLB franchises that have ceased to exist over the past few decades?

 

Is Detroit "failing" due to its owners desire to win? The Yankees? Boston? The Dodgers?

 

Also please provide examples of similar "businesses" that enjoy exemption from anti trust laws, publicly funded infrastructure, revenue sharing with their "competition," and exclusion from public disclosure of financial data.

[Joe A. Preusser]

Can you provide some examples of MLB franchises that have ceased to exist over the past few decades?

 

Is Detroit "failing" due to its owners desire to win? The Yankees? Boston? The Dodgers?

 

Also please provide examples of similar "businesses" that enjoy exemption from anti trust laws, publicly funded infrastructure, revenue sharing with their "competition," and exclusion from public disclosure of financial data.

 

Alright Chief, you've made the point. Baseball is certainly a special type of business. Granted.

 

Now, to compare the mid market Twins to the Yankees, Red Sox, and Dodgers is not fair. Those team can throw 200M into their roster and still come out better than the Twins in the ledger. So really it's less "Desire to Win at All Costs" and more we're filthy stinking rich and we have more disposable income.

 

I share many of your frustrations with the Twins. I just choose to view their shortcomings in a more positive light. If I didn't do that, why would I bother being a fan? I'd stick my eggs in the Wild basket, or the Rubio/Love Timberwolves basket. But I was a Twins fan first, and I will be a Twins fan last. Call me an appologist if you will, but I support the team as a business, as a form of entertainment, as an experience, and I won't look for excuses to denigrate them. That's my stance and I'm sticking to it

[Kwak]

How many think the FO will acquire a player before July 31 that resembles a significant upgrade over who they are playing right now? OK, stupid question its been 10 years since they did that.