When the window's open........

[Brock Beauchamp]

I'm not sure what "praise as a model franchise" should have been deserved for:

 

trying to get yourself contracted out of baseball for profit,

 

going 2-15 in the postseason since 2003 in 5 playoff series,

 

not making any legitimate attempt at improving or changing philosophical approach in direct response to continued negative postseason outcomes since 2002,

 

letting star-value & above-replacement players walk away for nothing or traded away for practically nothing,

 

year-after-year failure at recognizing franchise blind spots in developmental flaws within the organization and inability to scout, identify and sign prospects and veterans for positions of weakness,

 

failure to acknowledge and understand that the windows have closed on past market inefficiencies in player worth- and openly mocking proven modern valuation techniques,

 

failure to have in place a legitimate Plan A and Plan B for building a ballpark to match the personnel strengths and putting up the white flags of surrender at the first sign of said failure, while still in the transition phase to the new stadium.

 

You're talking about the Oakland A's here, right? Because other than the modern scouting techniques, the description pretty much fits. Beane has done all of these things in the past, yet is heralded as a God by statheads.

 

I love Beane, don't get me wrong. But if we're only going to look at rings, he's been pretty awful at it.

 

Which is why the playoff argument is a bad one.

[Mike Sixel]

"Not all prospect trades are for rentals. And, even if they were, would you trade 4 years of decent/goodness, followed by this mess, for 1 or 2 WS championships? It's not like keeping all those great draft picks in the mid-2000s has led to a great team right now....."

 

I'm not sure how you read that to mean "trades guarantee winning WS"......maybe I typed it poorly......heck, I didn't even mention a trade there exactly, it is the fact I did not mention FA in the rest of the reply that seems to be throwing this whole thing off....

 

But man, it was a throw away comment on a message board, not some tablet written in stone that all eternity should read and follow.....not sure why you are obsessing over that one comment

[TheLeviathan]

I'm not sure how you read that to mean "trades guarantee winning WS"

 

Ugh...what?

 

"Not all prospect trades are for rentals. And, even if they were, would you trade 4 years of decent/goodness, followed by this mess, for 1 or 2 WS championships? It's not like keeping all those great draft picks in the mid-2000s has led to a great team right now....."

 

You did read what you wrote....right?

[jokin]

You're talking about the Oakland A's here, right? Because other than the modern scouting techniques, the description pretty much fits. Beane has done all of these things in the past, yet is heralded as a God by statheads.

 

I love Beane, don't get me wrong. But if we're only going to look at rings, he's been pretty awful at it.

 

Which is why the playoff argument is a bad one.

 

So, the fans should just shut up and take it?, when year after year in the last decade, it was obvious that the club was more than happy to try and clean up with an artificially inflated win total in a clearly inferior division- likely many years the worst in baseball- and it was also obvious that the Twins would be repeatedly embarrassed in the postseason by this lack of dynamic thinking?

 

Oh, and when did the A's and Rays intentionally try to get themselves contracted or get themselves a new stadium?

[jay]

I'm not sure what "praise as a model franchise" should have been deserved for

 

Deserved or not, I'm sure you remember it just as well as I do.

 

It's easy to make a list of partially factual, partially personal subjective failures, but the point I was trying to make is that praise for the FO seems to be completely fleeting based on recent success. This was illustrated by providing clear examples of GMs that are considered successful and were on the chopping block yesterday.

 

In any form, I apologize and please resume blind hatred for most everything the organization has done.

[nicksaviking]

Has Ryan's approach stopped working? He left a winning team and came back to an awful one that is now improving. In 2-3 years, I think we'll be able to say whether his approach has stopped working.

 

Now, I'm not agreeing with everything the man has done. I hated the free agent pickups this offseason. I don't like the fact that Gibson isn't on the roster right now. There are plenty of things I don't like about this team right now and there are plenty of things I don't understand.

 

But I'm not going to confuse "lack of information" with "that person has no game plan". It's a bit presumptuous.

 

I've stated that it didn't appear Ryan had a gameplan in other threads but not here. I said it in referrence to the fact that it seems the roster placements (or lack-there-of) of the young players and their repeated demotions and recalls, DFA's and releases seems like the team is flying by the seat of there pants. Sometimes it's needed, but in many cases it seems like a lack of foresight.

 

Perhaps it's a short term issue, but if this ambiguous gameplan continues when all the young prospects are ready, there are going to be some major development and roster issues. They need to prepare the roster accordingly and have a more solid outline:

 

When Sano is at this stage of development, we need to look to do ??? with Trevor Plouffe.

 

When Meyer is ready we need to organize the rotation to reflect ???

 

When Buxton is ready the outfield priority should be ???

 

If the rotation is reorganized with strikeout pitchers the priority placed on defensive ability should be ???

 

This year's hectic and uneven usage of Hicks, Arcia, Permelee, Herrmann, Hendriks and Gibson indicate this is not currently happening.

[Mike Sixel]

Ugh...what?

 

 

 

You did read what you wrote....right?

 

did you read teh rest of what I wrote in reply? I'm done, this is getting the board no place......it was a throw away comment,.....and by the way, "would you trade 4 years of goodness for WS championships" does not mention anything about trading players.......that was written to include FA, as I said in the previous post.

[Brock Beauchamp]

So, the fans should just shut up and take it?, when year after year in the last decade, it was obvious that the club was more than happy to try and clean up with an artificially inflated win total in a clearly inferior division- likely many years the worst in baseball- and it was also obvious that the Twins would be repeatedly embarrassed in the postseason by this lack of dynamic thinking?

 

Oh, and when did the A's and Rays intentionally try to get themselves contracted or get themselves a new stadium?

 

The A's and Rays would love the opportunity to threaten contraction to get a new stadium. Everything else they've tried has failed.

 

No, the fans shouldn't shut up and take anything they don't like... On the other hand, your list is pretty damned subjective and what you consider a failure, others may view differently.

 

What happens if the Twins are an 85 win team next season? Is Ryan still a failure? Did he just get lucky?

 

Again, disagreement with methodology is not the same thing as failure. I think everyone on this board has disagreed with the front office at least once in the past twelve months. That doesn't mean the front office is wrong about everything they do and after his last run as GM, Ryan certainly deserves at least two years to right the ship.

 

And again, that "inflated win total with postseason failure" could easily apply to the Oakland A's. But you don't want to do that because you like Billy Beane.

[Aaron Cross]

So, the fans should just shut up and take it?, when year after year in the last decade, it

was obvious that the club was more than happy to try and clean up with an artificially inflated win total in a clearly inferior division- likely many years the worst in baseball- and it was also obvious that the Twins would be repeatedly embarrassed in the postseason by this lack of dynamic thinking?

 

Oh, and when did the A's and Rays intentionally try to get themselves contracted or get themselves a new stadium?

Best post in the entire thread.

[Aaron Cross]

And again, that "inflated win total with postseason failure" could easily apply to the Oakland A's. But you don't want to do that because you like Billy Beane.

So are you denying they've been content over the years with an artificially inflated win total in an inferior division? Or are you defending them because they're not the only team plagued by postseason failure?

 

You're symbolic of everything that is wrong with this fanbase. Oops, you're not gonna ban me again now, are you?

[ThePuck]

what the As have accomplished based on the payroll they have been forced to have has been absolutely amazing, regardless of whether or not they've won the World Series.

 

part of that is that they put a premium on drafting and developing quality pitching and then they use that pitching, as they get close to FA, to acquire pieces.

[jokin]

Deserved or not, I'm sure you remember it just as well as I do.

 

It's easy to make a list of partially factual, partially personal subjective failures, but the point I was trying to make is that praise for the FO seems to be completely fleeting based on recent success. This was illustrated by providing clear examples of GMs that are considered successful and were on the chopping block yesterday.

 

In any form, I apologize and please resume blind hatred for most everything the organization has done.

 

You might have a point, except that my eyes are wide open, I don't hate anyone in the organization, and I presented and documented factually the pretty clear case against the organization and its recent and current ossified thinking and miserly state of affairs.

[jay]

I presented and documented factually the pretty clear case against the organization and its recent and current ossified thinking and miserly state of affairs.

 

Parts of your case were heavily opinion, but you're not going to change your views either way. To each their own.

[Brock Beauchamp]

So are you denying they've been content over the years with an artificially inflated win total in an inferior division? Or are you defending them because they're not the only team plagued by postseason failure?

 

You're symbolic of everything that is wrong with this fanbase. Oops, you're not gonna ban me again now, are you?

 

Why, yes. Yes, I am. In less than 200 posts, you've managed to receive at least 20 user-generated reports and two different warnings from moderators. I've had enough.

[ericchri]

part of that is that they put a premium on drafting and developing quality pitching and then they use that pitching, as they get close to FA, to acquire pieces.

 

Which appears to be the trend in the latest couple of drafts and trades by the Twins, no? Outside of feeling beholden to drafting what appeared to be a potentially superstar talent in Buxton.

[nicksaviking]

Ha, this is some active negativity today! Seems to me much more than usual. I've been party to it I'm afraid though I think much of it has justifiable roots. This organization needs to announce a bunch of FSL promotions ASAP to steer us in a different direction and restore some comradery.

[ThePuck]

Which appears to be the trend in the latest couple of drafts and trades by the Twins, no? Outside of feeling beholden to drafting what appeared to be a potentially superstar talent in Buxton.

 

We won't know that for sure for awhile. Quantity of players drafted at a position isn't necessarily quality. Then there's the whole development part.

[jay]

Ha, this is some active negativity today! Seems to me much more than usual. I've been party to it I'm afraid though I think much of it has justifiable roots. This organization needs to announce a bunch of FSL promotions ASAP to steer us in a different direction and restore some comradery.

 

Ha, I'd have to agree with every portion of your post! I get why folks are frustrated (our team has sucked for 2 years, going on 3), but we have a tendency here to let it boil over and reach for any possible fall-man.

[Mike Sixel]

Ha, I'd have to agree with every portion of your post! I get why folks are frustrated (our team has sucked for 2 years, going on 3), but we have a tendency here to let it boil over and reach for any possible fall-man.

 

 

Not to mention people are already predicting 2014 will be bad too......

[Brock Beauchamp]

We won't know that for sure for awhile. Quantity of players drafted at a position isn't necessarily quality. Then there's the whole development part.

 

Which is all true.

 

But, again, it appears to be a strategy. Whether it's a working strategy is another matter entirely but there are plenty of folks on this forum calling the front office clueless, directionless, dumb, continue ad nauseum, when it's pretty clear that they're doing something... Whether it works or not will require additional time.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Not to mention people are already predicting 2014 will be bad too......

 

That's a little too far down the apologist rabbit hole for me.

 

This team looks like a 73-ish win team, up from a 66-ish win team two years ago and a 69-ish win team last season. There is simply no reason for this team to shoot for anything less than a .500 record next season. They have the talent, they have the financial ability, they just need to start acting on it.

[nicksaviking]

Ha, I'd have to agree with every portion of your post! I get why folks are frustrated (our team has sucked for 2 years, going on 3), but we have a tendency here to let it boil over and reach for any possible fall-man.

 

Well to be fair, I'm pretty consistant, I basically just have one fall-man.

[IdahoPilgrim]

I wonder what the Twins would be like if they let the fans run the organization. That would be an interesting concept.

 

That was tried with a football (soccer) club in England - they went belly up.

[diehardtwinsfan]

you are right, I did say "what if they had traded Benson when he was a good prospect"....and I stand by that, sometimes it is a good idea to trade prospects for proven players. Sometimes it is not. Maybe even most times it is not.

 

But that's a nit for me.....my point remains consistent, if you refuse to use FA or trades, you better be the best drafting team in baseball, ever. And they weren't. As does my other point, when you are one of the best teams in baseball for years in a row, but you refuse to add players, then you are deserving of some criticism. Others clearly disagree, and since this is just an opinion and not fact, neither side is probably wrong.....

A couple of things:

 

1) Based on the consternation from some on this board from trading Revere after last season, I hate to think what the blow up would have been had the Twins traded Benson 2 years ago when he was an actual prospect. Add to that, I'm not sure what they would have traded him for at that point, given that they were well on their way to 99 losses that year. The thing about prospects is that they are just prospects. Picking and choosing the right ones is not simple. Its easy to look back at a failed spec in Benson and go "we should have traded him when he had value". It's also unrealistic.

 

2) I agree that if you aren't going to bolster your teams by trades and FA, that you had better be good at drafting. The problem is that Ryan does build his teams via trades. He executed 2 big ones this offseason and has a reputation for being a very shrewd trader. I'd be hard pressed to find a trade where Ryan was clearly the loser during his tenure in Minnesota. You are right in that he tends to hold on to his prospects, but as others have noted, that's usually teh best course of action.

[IdahoPilgrim]

Ha, this is some active negativity today! Seems to me much more than usual. I've been party to it I'm afraid though I think much of it has justifiable roots. This organization needs to announce a bunch of FSL promotions ASAP to steer us in a different direction and restore some comradery.

 

Agreed. Think how it would have been if the Twins hadn't won last night.

[Mike Sixel]

Benson was an example, but your points all hold.....

 

but I'm talking trades from the other side, the side McPhail did in FA.....trying to get legit, proven MLB players when you are "this close" to get yourself over the hump. Ryan has done a ton of the other way, but other than Kielty (who is like Benson, imo), I can't think of one he did.

[ThePuck]

Which is all true.

 

But, again, it appears to be a strategy. Whether it's a working strategy is another matter entirely but there are plenty of folks on this forum calling the front office clueless, directionless, dumb, continue ad nauseum, when it's pretty clear that they're doing something... Whether it works or not will require additional time.

 

But is it a change in strategy brought on by Ryan? I ask because, remember, we drafted 35 pitchers in 2011 and only 17 position players. That's a higher percentage of pitchers than 2012 or 2013.

[Brock Beauchamp]

But is it a change in strategy brought on by Ryan? I ask because, remember, we drafted 35 pitchers in 2011 and only 17 position players. That's a higher percentage of pitchers than 2012 or 2013.

 

Hard to say. Which brings me back to my earlier statement about basing "factual statements" on partial information. This is only Ryan's second draft since returning to the post. He's only really had one full offseason, which was equal parts resounding success and miserable failure. At best, we have a partial view of his plan (if there is one) and beyond that, it's mostly speculation, lots of hyperbole, with a heaping helping of teeth gnashing thrown in for good measure.

 

I'm fine with disagreeing with individual moves. We all do it and we're all entitled to our opinions, lucid or not. But when it comes to accusing the organization of rampant stupidity when baseball works in 5-6 year cycles and we're only in year 1.5 is kinda annoying.

 

Scratch that. It's really annoying.

[ThePuck]

But when it comes to accusing the organization of rampant stupidity when baseball works in 5-6 year cycles and we're only in year 1.5 is kinda annoying.

 

Scratch that. It's really annoying.

 

I'm not sure I've said anything that puts me in that category, but I hear what you're saying.

[Kwak]

"When the windows open"--Whose window is open? Not the Twins' window! It has been established that the main objective of the FO is to reduce payroll--only question is to what level? Win? The high-priced tickets always sell. "Winning" will sell out the rest (low profit) seats, but at the price of a significantly higher payroll--OOPS, there went the profit from selling the "popularly-priced" seats. Or wasn't that real reason Carl changed GMs in 2007. Whatever.

 

 

If the Twins are committed to winning soon, they will need a massive upgrade in hitting or in pitching. The success of "the prospects" (gosh what an abused word on the board) at Rochester hasn't translated to success at Minnesota. The salivating over certain "prospects" at even lower levels truly needs to be tempered. The Twins do have "a window"--but they need to open it and start acquiring some major league talent. There has been much discussion over Gibson (and now some on Albers) that they should be promoted. If Ryan is truly committed to winning in 2014/15 perhaps he is thinking of a blockbuster trade involving high-level prospects and some shiny (or even dull), but disposable major league talent for legitimate power hitting. Of course that entails the risk of failure and might even mean an outlay of significant cash.--Nah, that ain't the Twins Way.