Article: Correia Signing is a Sad Thing

[Nick Nelson]

Going into this offseason with that expectation was blind trust because it relied on JR to do something he's never done before and is unlikely to ever do in his tenure. It's not his wheelhouse.

I don't see the value in relying on precedent in an unprecedented situation. He's never had this kind of money to spend in an offseason. I admit that I underestimated the costs of free agent pitching, like most people, but I still don't think it was ever unrealistic to expect $20-25 million to buy you a better pitcher than Baker, Feldman or Correia.

 

As for the rest, we both know no matter what is posted we'll keep our own opinion on the tone. The threads aren't hard to find, basically any centered on Feldman, Baker, or your thoughts about them. You were aggressive in your early condemnation of the Cubs signings (arguably three articles with that point) and made it a point to call out a number of posters who shared pessimism about the upcoming season.

Nah, that's a cop-out. If you're going to throw around these claims you better be able to back them up. Are you talking about when I said of the Feldman signing: "The total seems somewhat extreme, at least from the perspective of an organization with less money to throw around than the Cubs, but perhaps only by the preset standards we entered this offseason with"? Or when I said of the Baker signing: "Baker is a very good pitcher when healthy, but he's eclipsed 175 innings only once in his career and guaranteeing him $5.5 million in his first season back from major elbow surgery – despite a saturated pitching market – seems crazy to me" (emphasis added)?

 

I'm sorry, but neither of the articles you're referring to strike me as soapboxing nor attacking people with opposing viewpoints, and if I was doing that in the forum I don't remember it. Instead, this seems like yet another instance of you mischaracterizing or exaggerating another person's position to belittle them in hindsight. It's bad form.

 

It doesn't make me happy that we are bound to stink again next year, but it also doesn't change that the side of the fence you chose on both of those arguments was wrong.

It's way too early to be calling anyone "wrong" about any of this. Once again: Kevin Correia signing a hideous contract does not make Baker's contract or Feldman's contract any more attractive. I still wouldn't have liked either of them for the Twins. Their contracts are relatively better than Correia's though. You win that point.

[jffrsnclrk]

Looks like there will be plenty of competition for the long relief role, luckily, there will be plenty of long relief situations for the "competitors"

to fill.

[The Greatest Poster Alive]

And finally, 2 years 10 million... It's peanuts. It will not hamper this team in ANY way next year or this year in the free agent market.

 

Just like the Capps contract didn't hamper them this past offseason, when they gave him way too much money way too early in free agency. Nope, it's inconceivable that this contract could potentially hamper them in ANY way this year or next. No chance whatsoever. None. Zip.

 

They may use it as an excuse, I'm sure that's a possibility... but I'm not onboard with people's assessment that the Twins have a firm limit on payroll. I think they spend money when they believe there is value in the contract, or when they absolutely have to fill a need (like this case). I believe if this team is on the verge of contending next year the Twins will spend money to do so. 5 million dollars isn't gonna make much of a difference either way.

[TheLeviathan]

I don't see the value in relying on precedent in an unprecedented situation. He's never had this kind of money to spend in an offseason. I admit that I underestimated the costs of free agent pitching, like most people, but I still don't think it was ever unrealistic to expect $20-25 million to buy you a better pitcher than Baker, Feldman or Correia.

 

So you don't see the value in relying on precedent, general tactics of a known GM, or analysis of the market....but hope is just fine? Because that's what you've got - hope. And, not just plain old hope, it was "let's add three quality arms without dinging our average offensive output so we can compete even though historically there may be no precedent of any team, in any situation, ever doing so" level of hope. Sorry, but I'll take precedent and actual analysis over that basis any day of the week. You should be familiar with it, you did it two years ago yourself. I'm not sure if all of you guys writing articles were intentionally being positive or what it was, but there was a real dearth of sobering reality from anyone but a few posters.

 

Nah, that's a cop-out.

Here's what I'll say looking back, you took an aggressive approach to your take and sometimes that makes you look like a genius and sometimes you get the opposite. You called Baker's deal "undeniably" great for him (implying undeniably a poor tactic for the Twins. The context comes right after that one) and then demanded evidence from anyone disagreeing with your point. Evidence you refused to reciprocate btw. But you're right, there was less direct evidence of it than my memory recalls. So I take those terms back with apologies. It would be better phrased that you were aggressive in labeling Baker as a mistake that the Twins rightly avoided.

 

Personally, I think if they had taken that "mistake", we might have avoided this one.

[mikecgrimes]

Best thing about this signing we didn't give someone 2 years 16 million because his ERA was 2 tenths of a point better. Guy compares to Carl Pavano, wouldn't want to see him start a playoff game, but thats not going to be a problem.

[ThePuck]

 

No worse than your assumption the Twins DID offer the most money, but the pitcher decided a team that's only been bad the last two seasons isn't worth going to.

 

It's all assumptions, you just think yours are better.

 

All I did was say it COULD be a factor, along with the other factors given by the person who made the post I was responding to

 

Read much? My assumptions that even if (Not did, if) the Twins were the high bidder they would not come here. The best anyone has come up with for high profile free agent signings to a last place team was Jeff Francis.

 

Yes, I read plenty Richard Cranium...The point was, your assumptions are just that. Yours aren't better than those you disagree with....I see you just skipped right past that. You also skipped past the fact that big spenders aren't usually at the bottom in the standings, so it makes sense there haven't been many, if any, big time pitchers signing big contracts to last place team.

 

In any event, since you insist on talking to me and others as if we are idiots, every damn time you post, why not just stop replying to me in general. I'm apparently not in your league on baseball knowledge. Chat with people smarter than me.

[old nurse]

 

No worse than your assumption the Twins DID offer the most money, but the pitcher decided a team that's only been bad the last two seasons isn't worth going to.

 

It's all assumptions, you just think yours are better.

 

All I did was say it COULD be a factor, along with the other factors given by the person who made the post I was responding to

 

Read much? My assumptions that even if (Not did, if) the Twins were the high bidder they would not come here. The best anyone has come up with for high profile free agent signings to a last place team was Jeff Francis.

 

Yes, I read plenty Richard Cranium...The point was, your assumptions are just that. Yours aren't better than those you disagree with....I see you just skipped right past that. You also skipped past the fact that big spenders aren't usually at the bottom in the standings, so it makes sense there haven't been many, if any, big time pitchers signing big contracts to last place team.

 

In any event, since you insist on talking to me and others as if we are idiots, every damn time you post, why not just stop replying to me in general. I'm apparently not in your league on baseball knowledge. Chat with people smarter than me.

 

Opinions are a fine thing to have. A basis in reality would be good. Mets, Cubs, Red Sox before the trade, and the Marlins had large payrolls with splashy free agents and sign and trades.

I noticed that the higher profile free agents do not sign with small to mid market last place team. Nobody refutes that. You say it is a stupid assumption. If a team is losing and rebuilding, why would you go to a team that has only one or two very good players if there were other options.? The average fan ought to understand not wanting to be around losers or otherwise this board wouldn't have all the complaining.

[ThePuck]

 

No worse than your assumption the Twins DID offer the most money, but the pitcher decided a team that's only been bad the last two seasons isn't worth going to.

 

It's all assumptions, you just think yours are better.

 

All I did was say it COULD be a factor, along with the other factors given by the person who made the post I was responding to

 

Read much? My assumptions that even if (Not did, if) the Twins were the high bidder they would not come here. The best anyone has come up with for high profile free agent signings to a last place team was Jeff Francis.

 

Yes, I read plenty Richard Cranium...The point was, your assumptions are just that. Yours aren't better than those you disagree with....I see you just skipped right past that. You also skipped past the fact that big spenders aren't usually at the bottom in the standings, so it makes sense there haven't been many, if any, big time pitchers signing big contracts to last place team.

 

In any event, since you insist on talking to me and others as if we are idiots, every damn time you post, why not just stop replying to me in general. I'm apparently not in your league on baseball knowledge. Chat with people smarter than me.

 

Opinions are a fine thing to have. A basis in reality would be good. Mets, Cubs, Red Sox before the trade, and the Marlins had large payrolls with splashy free agents and sign and trades.

I noticed that the higher profile free agents do not sign with small to mid market last place team. Nobody refutes that. You say it is a stupid assumption. If a team is losing and rebuilding, why would you go to a team that has only one or two very good players if there were other options.? The average fan ought to understand not wanting to be around losers or otherwise this board wouldn't have all the complaining.

 

Yeah, my idea that a reason we haven't signed top notch pitching in free agency is because maybe sometimes we haven't offered the most money isn't an idea based on reality. I mean, it's crazy to believe maybe we have lost out on some top notch FA pitching due to not offering the most money. I get it. I don't have any proof that maybe a pitcher or two decided 'hey, I'll go where I'm offered the most money.' and by signing elsewhere, that means we didn't offer the most money. I'm just loopy to think money might be a factor in a pitchers decision on where to sign. AND I NEVER SAID THE TWINS LOST OUT ON FA PITCHING EVERY TIME BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T OFFER THE MOST MONEY. I said sometime maybe money was the reason.

 

Oh, and you know, I didn't discount anyone else's ideas as to why we haven't signed top notch pitching in free agency as 'stupid' either...there's a lot of factors....the poster I originally responded to listed some, but he didn't list money. So I added that as another possible reason. I didn't discount the factors he posted.

[Kwak]

Signed, traded for...semantics. The point is - when was the last time the Twins acquired a legitimate top of the rotation guy?

 

Not in my lifetime.

 

And if the going rate for one is what Kansas City just paid, I hope that continues to be the case. Kansas City was a 90 loss team in 2012. I have the feeling they're going to seriously regret pulling the trigger on competing prematurely. There was just no reason for it. Detroit is stronger this season but should begin to fade quickly as Fielder/Miggy get older, Verlander & Co. log more innings, Hunter falls into obscurity, V-Mart leaves, etc.

 

There was simply no reason to go all-in right now. 2014 looks like a much better window to compete. I think Moore just made a huge mistake.

It was 1992. The Twins signed this LH pitcher from PITT to replace Morris (who bolted to TOR). I can't remember his name though.

[old nurse]

Signed, traded for...semantics. The point is - when was the last time the Twins acquired a legitimate top of the rotation guy?

 

Not in my lifetime.

 

And if the going rate for one is what Kansas City just paid, I hope that continues to be the case. Kansas City was a 90 loss team in 2012. I have the feeling they're going to seriously regret pulling the trigger on competing prematurely. There was just no reason for it. Detroit is stronger this season but should begin to fade quickly as Fielder/Miggy get older, Verlander & Co. log more innings, Hunter falls into obscurity, V-Mart leaves, etc.

 

There was simply no reason to go all-in right now. 2014 looks like a much better window to compete. I think Moore just made a huge mistake.

It was 1992. The Twins signed this LH pitcher from PITT to replace Morris (who bolted to TOR). I can't remember his name though.

John Smiley?

[snepp]

Might be time to re-enable that quote limit Brock, this is getting ridiculous.

[cmathewson]

<sadface>

[ashbury]

The best anyone has come up with for high profile free agent signings to a last place team was Jeff Francis.

 

But, but, but... Jack Morris!

[diehardtwinsfan]

wait... newsflash... high profile players always sign with large market teams... you don't say. I've yet to hear of one small to mid market team that said "we offered XXXXX more money, but he took the smaller contract to play with the Yankees".

[GoMNTwins]

One thing that we all seem to be ignoring here is that Terry Ryan and the Twins FO don't have any shortage of money, and this mentality of budgeting saving and not spending the money big name free agents are worth for the sake of improvement is entirely self-imposed, and to be honest, flies in the face of the argument that deemed Target Field so necessary when they were stomping their feet and banging pots and pans together to get it. They are officially making ridiculous amounts of money off a building the state of Minnesota put up for them, all the while insisting that we need to keep giving them money by using the All-Star Game as a marketing tool to sell season tickets. Kevin Correia is a colossal waste of money, but there's no reason to think that it should hamper their ability to sign a guy like Marcum or Jackson, it's just that they choose not to spend money. They're not too stupid to figure out the White Sox and the Tigers have solid rotations because they were willing to pay for it, they just think we're stupid enough not to figure it out and just assume that injuries are at fault, or some other kind of bad break. When injuries rear their ugly head next year, is Terry Ryan going to accept responsibility for bringing in two pitchers that went under the knife so recently? It's going to be interesting to see excuses and consequences overlap next year, and I can't wait to hear Ryan and St Peter explain it away all over again. It's really time we stop paying money for this.

[jokin]

In Terry we trust?

 

That's going to be the mantra for 2013 and a hard one to live down by those who wrote as such or those that thrive in the Ryan-Worship set..... because....see..."GMing is hard!"...... (although I think Ryan-worshippers are finally coming around to having their eyes opened).

[70charger]

One thing that we all seem to be ignoring here is that Terry Ryan and the Twins FO don't have any shortage of money, and this mentality of budgeting saving and not spending the money big name free agents are worth for the sake of improvement is entirely self-imposed, and to be honest, flies in the face of the argument that deemed Target Field so necessary when they were stomping their feet and banging pots and pans together to get it. They are officially making ridiculous amounts of money off a building the state of Minnesota put up for them, all the while insisting that we need to keep giving them money by using the All-Star Game as a marketing tool to sell season tickets. Kevin Correia is a colossal waste of money, but there's no reason to think that it should hamper their ability to sign a guy like Marcum or Jackson, it's just that they choose not to spend money. They're not too stupid to figure out the White Sox and the Tigers have solid rotations because they were willing to pay for it, they just think we're stupid enough not to figure it out and just assume that injuries are at fault, or some other kind of bad break. When injuries rear their ugly head next year, is Terry Ryan going to accept responsibility for bringing in two pitchers that went under the knife so recently? It's going to be interesting to see excuses and consequences overlap next year, and I can't wait to hear Ryan and St Peter explain it away all over again. It's really time we stop paying money for this.

 

Then stop. And next time, come up with something original. This is a TD "best of" compilation, except using only the worst posters.