Pitcher Opener

[mlhouse]

 

I agree. I would rather have five reliable starters and I do think we need to develop that if we can, but I don't see how the opener strategy is inconsistent with that development. In fact, it might help. Stewart went five innings in his last start when he ddidn't start pitching until the second inning and started with the back end of the lineup. That's the longest he's gone. Anecdotal evidence, I know, but this might be a way to take guys who just really aren't ready to be regular starters like Stewart, Litell, Gonsalves, and maybe even Romero, and work them into their first year or half year in the league so they can stretch out. You get the development time without the collapse and die one or two inning starts.

 

It also strikes me that it's not that hard on your bullpen because assuming you use the same opener all the time (something Tampa did with Sergio Romo,  at least for a while), that pitcher is still available three of the five days through the rotation. By definition, he piches the day that fifth starter pitches and goes one or two innings. You give him an off day the day before and the day after, so assuming you have five starters, he pitches on day five and is available on days two and three. Day one is your best starter so hopefully you need fewer relievers that day, but day four this pitcher might be needed and not be available.Like I said before, I don't know if this works or not, but I don't think we should just dismiss it. It's kind of an interesting idea.

 

I also like the idea of a piggyback situation where that fifth starter role is actually a combination of say Mejia and Stewart. The concept is that between those two, who pitch every fifth day in that game, you get at least six or seven innings and maybe as many as eight or nine, leaving the rest of your staff to primarily handle the other four games. Since one is left-handed and the other one right-handed, you can mix and match who actually "starts" and who "relieves" depending on match ups. That approach works of course until you have a start where between the two of them they give you four innings and then your whole bullpen gets overworked and collapses, but that's why you have the AAA shuttle going to get fresh arms back and forth. Another interesting thought.

 

The problem is that then your designated "opener" isn't ready to relieve at any time.  So, you have one full member of the pitching staff that only contributes three one inning stints a week.

 

I think your approach is the best for teams like the Twins.  You are either rebuilding or too cheap to field a full staff of starters.  So, you go 4 deep in your starters with a 5th and 6th guy that fill the 5th starter role or come into games in long relief.  When you use Meija in long relief, then Stewart is the 5th starter. In some cases you might start one for 4 innings and bring in the second for 3-4.  This gives you some staff flexibility and I like your concept how this helps the pitchers develop.

[Ben Noble]

 

The problem is that then your designated "opener" isn't ready to relieve at any time.  So, you have one full member of the pitching staff that only contributes three one inning stints a week.

 

How would this be any different than a traditional closer's workload? I also want the Twins to start consistently deploying their closer for more than three outs when the situation calls for it, but that's another topic...

[mlhouse]

 

How would this be any different than a traditional closer's workload? I also want the Twins to start consistently deploying their closer for more than three outs when the situation calls for it, but that's another topic...

 

Because the closer's workload is game contingent.  They are brought into the game knowing it is a "save" situation.  Otherwise, they usually are not.

 

The proper role of a closer is open for debate, but the one thing that is agreed upon is that it is based on those situaitons.

[Twodogs]

I see the validity in the idea but think it's going to require a specialized roster to make it work to its fullest.

 

For example, Trevor May is a very good candidate to make this work. Maybe Magill is as well.

 

Guys like Berrios and Gibson start every game. That's a no-brainer.

 

But when you come to a guy like Odorizzi or Gonsalves/Stewart, you don't start the game with a one-inning reliever. You have 2-3 longer inning guys available to work in front of them. The goal should be two innings at a minimum for the opener, going to three innings depending on performance.

 

Properly executing that concept might allow a team to actually carry a smaller bullpen than the average team carries today. You get two innings from May and then five innings from Odorizzi. Boom, you're now in the eighth inning of the game and May is still available to go in 2-3 days again. Even a good team could use this strategy once or twice through every rotation turn.

 

But this kind of decision is pretty hard to implement mid-season using a roster built to carry standard bullpen usage. If anything, I wish the team would have started using this on August 1st to get through some of the growing pains. That way they might have a better idea how it works over a longer period of time instead of forcing a decision based on a ~10 game sample size.

I personally do not like the concept and I agree it is used by bad teams as good teams seem to have enough starting pitching to be successful. However, I like this point about not needing as many bullpen arms etc... It made me think about guys like Tommy Milone, guys like him that seemed to be able to shut people down for short stretches of games, now this opener idea might seem more appealing, where a guy like Milone goes 3 innings and then a guy like Mejia comes in and throws 4 or 5 innings and now you're in the last inning or two of the game?? Many of those AAAA starters could be effective for 2 - 3 innings??

[notoriousgod71]

 

If there was a special trick that allowed teams to hide bad pitchers, someone would have figured it out 80 years ago.

 

 

They did. It was called not pitching them.

 

I don't care what the analytics say. If you have a seven run lead and your starting pitcher is at 80 pitches he should go out there for another inning.

[notoriousgod71]

 

Pad the win stat? Does any team even believe in that stat?

 

I disagree.......

 

It makes a ton of sense to have your starter get an extra inning, hopefully, by facing a different set of batters a third time. Imagine how much more valuable Mejia is if he goes 6 innings instead of 5, for example. That's the theory.....which sounds to me like it makes sense. 

 

The third time thru the order penalty is not about "fresh" arm, by the way, it's about seeing the pitcher. The studies are out there on that.

 

From what I've seen in looking at the Rays boxscores the "Starters" don't go an extra inning. They get taken out after the fifth or sixth inning anyway. In reality they are going less innings.

[yarnivek1972]

From what I've seen in looking at the Rays boxscores the "Starters" don't go an extra inning. They get taken out after the fifth or sixth inning anyway. In reality they are going less innings.

Depends on how you look at it. Maybe if the “starter” had actually started the game he only gets through 4 innings before things turn south

[notoriousgod71]

 

Depends on how you look at it. Maybe if the “starter” had actually started the game he only gets through 4 innings before things turn south

 

I've yet to see a TB "starter" go eight. Not every single start would the pitcher fall apart after four.

[mngopherguy]

 

Including pretty much ever team in teh league.......every single one.

 

Exactly, I was responding to Carole.

[jorgenswest]

Pad the win stat? Does any team even believe in that stat?

 

I disagree.......

 

It makes a ton of sense to have your starter get an extra inning, hopefully, by facing a different set of batters a third time. Imagine how much more valuable Mejia is if he goes 6 innings instead of 5, for example. That's the theory.....which sounds to me like it makes sense. 

 

The third time thru the order penalty is not about "fresh" arm, by the way, it's about seeing the pitcher. The studies are out there on that.

I have been thinking about this for a few days wondering how big is the penalty. It might not be that big.

 

http://twinsdaily.com/blog/36/entry-11217-third-time-through-the-order-established-knowledge-or-statistical-illusion/