Play like a ... play like you know what you're doing

[Squirrel]

Fairly succinct NPR commentary touching on the 'Plays like a girl' - 'Plays like a guy' comments. I mostly like McEnroe. And his recent comments chastising Margaret Court wins high praise in my book. (Have you seen/heard that video he made?) But this hash up of comparing men and women athletes needs to really go by the wayside.

 

This quote sums it up:

"Female athletes almost always will lose the women vs. men argument in high level sports because the men almost always have more strength and speed. But as Voepel points out, that omits other significant attributes such as mental toughness, feel for a sport, understanding of a sport.

 

So perhaps, once again, we resolve the issue by agreeing not to compare. But to appreciate Diana Taurasi for what she does, and Golden State Warriors star guard Steph Curry for what he does. And leave it there."

 

http://www.npr.org/2017/06/27/534571590/dear-john-mcenroe-putting-serena-williams-on-the-mens-circuit-is-a-losing-game

[Craig Arko]

Much as one can appreciate both Sara Seager and Neil deGrasse Tyson simultaneously, without a need to compare them.

[drjim]

There is no need to compare, but McEnroe was explicitly asked to compare. He answered his honest opinion, but probably would have been better off just dodging the initial question.

[Craig Arko]

'I don't know' is a perfectly good honest opinion.

[drjim]

'I don't know' is a perfectly good honest opinion.

He definitively should have dodged.

 

Listening to the whole quote/interview I thought he was pretty complimentary towards Serena.

 

Is it controversial to suggest there are physical differences between men and women?

[Squirrel]

 

There is no need to compare, but McEnroe was explicitly asked to compare. He answered his honest opinion, but probably would have been better off just dodging the initial question.

I read the original interview. No, he wasn't asked to compare, not explicitly. And he had the opportunity to put it in a better context, like the commentary does. I think the quote from the commentary I put in the OP was a response we should all reach for. He should have just said, 'You can't compare them.' Because you can't. But the broader point, which I put in the title... plays like a ... what? Girl? Guy? These types of comments need to be retired. Serena Williams plays a heckuva game of tennis. She's one of the best, ever, period. It doesn't matter if she has the equal strength or speed of a man ... physical differences do make a difference in who would win or lose, but as the original commentary suggests there is more to it than that, how you play the game, mental toughness, strategy. How she goes about winning as she does makes her one of the best ... not because she could or couldn't beat the top male player, but because she plays the game the way she does ... not like a girl, not like a guy, but like she knows what she's doing. I don't watch tennis religiously, but from one who knows the game and plays the game, she is one of the best ever. Period. 

[Squirrel]

 

He definitively should have dodged.

Listening to the whole quote/interview I thought he was pretty complimentary towards Serena.

Is it controversial to suggest there are physical differences between men and women?

No, it's not controversial ... and you've completely missed the point.

[drjim]

I read the original interview. No, he wasn't asked to compare, not explicitly. And he had the opportunity to put it in a better context, like the commentary does. I think the quote from the commentary I put in the OP was a response we should all reach for. He should have just said, 'You can't compare them.' Because you can't. But the broader point, which I put in the title... plays like a ... what? Girl? Guy? These types of comments need to be retired. Serena Williams plays a heckuva game of tennis. She's one of the best, ever, period. It doesn't matter if she has the equal strength or speed of a man ... physical differences do make a difference in who would win or lose, but as the original commentary suggests there is more to it than that, how you play the game, mental toughness, strategy. How she goes about winning as she does makes her one of the best ... not because she could or couldn't beat the top male player, but because she plays the game the way she does ... not like a girl, not like a guy, but like she knows what she's doing. I don't watch tennis religiously, but from one who knows the game and plays the game, she is one of the best ever. Period.

She's one of 2-3 best, most dominant champions of all time. Incredible athlete.

[kab21]

 

No, it's not controversial ... and you've completely missed the point.

The point being that we can't talk about the physical differences between men and women even everyone knows that they are true?

 

Just don't talk about it because it is controversial.

[Squirrel]

The point being that we can't talk about the physical differences between men and women even everyone knows that they are true?

 

Just don't talk about it because it is controversial.

Sigh. Not what I said and not the point of the commentary. Did you even read it?

[drjim]

I reread the commentary and I think it is a little unfair to McEnroe. The Tarasi statements have little to do with what McEnroe said about Serena.

 

I don't have any time for the "plays like a man" crowd either. But that's not what McEnroe has said about Serena either.

 

The commentary is right on, but tries to force McEnroes comments into something they are not to prove a larger correct point. McEnroe might be looking for controversy, I think it is more likely he's just stubborn.

[twinsnorth49]

 

The point being that we can't talk about the physical differences between men and women even everyone knows that they are true?

 

Just don't talk about it because it is controversial.

If everyone knows they are true, what's the point of talking about it? The whole discussion is in fact, pointless. 

 

Let's discuss whether 2+2 is actually 4.

 

 

 

[drjim]

If everyone knows they are true, what's the point of talking about it? The whole discussion is in fact, pointless.

 

Let's discuss whether 2+2 is actually 4.

Correct. The initial question to McEnroe was pointless. The reaction has been equally enlightening.

 

The commentary linked here is correct, but had to stretch so far to bring in the McEnroe comments.

[Squirrel]

 

I reread the commentary and I think it is a little unfair to McEnroe. The Tarasi statements have little to do with what McEnroe said about Serena.

I don't have any time for the "plays like a man" crowd either. But that's not what McEnroe has said about Serena either.

The commentary is right on, but tries to force McEnroes comments into something they are not to prove a larger correct point. McEnroe might be looking for controversy, I think it is more likely he's just stubborn.

I don't think he's looking for controversy, per se; I don't even think he meant much by it other than trying to joke around, and I think Serena took it as such as well. I pretty much rolled my eyes, and said 'Not this again.' I like McEnroe, a lot, as a tennis commentator and competitor; despite his antics he was a great tennis player, still is. The NPR commentary even concedes the physical differences between men and women athletes. I don't think the article is trying to force what McEnroe meant as much as just trying to use it as a springboard into the discussion of how do you compare the two and saying you can't. It's not that one is better than the other, or would win in a head to head contest, or would be ranked higher or lower if they would be playing against a different gender of competition. It goes to the heart of how men women athletes are characterized. 'Plays like a guy' or 'Plays like a girl' have connotations that I think should be retired. I hear that on here quite frequently in the more commonly phrased 'Throws like a girl' and various other things. No one actually thinks about what that means and just throws that out there as if that's an acceptable characterization. Comparing men and women athletes ... you just can't do it, so why even say things like that? I think because we are just conditioned to it. Women athletes aren't good because 'they play like a guy,' they are good because they are good. Period. Serena is one of the best tennis players, ever, male or female, not because she could play and destroy in men's tennis, because I'm not sure she could, I don't know if she could, it's really a different game. You can't compare them like that. She's one of the best ever, male or female, because of how she goes about her game, how she plays it. Same with the woman basketball player mentioned. Same with any pro female athlete. They are good because they are. Period. As I said, I still hear this so often ... 'She's pretty good, for a girl' ... 'She's good because she plays like a man.' Those are just stupid and pointless comments.

[Craig Arko]

 

Let's discuss whether 2+2 is actually 4.

Okay, you asked for it.

 

http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/as2446/224.pdf

[twinsnorth49]

Okay, you asked for it.

 

http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/as2446/224.pdf

I skipped right to the end, turns out I was right after all.

[Craig Arko]

 

I skipped right to the end, turns out I was right after all.

You're a natural.

[nicksaviking]

If we're going to do the whole physiological difference bit to compare men and women, why don't we do it with men and men?

 

You pluck any of the great men's tennis players from the 60's or 70's and put them in the 2017 US Open and they wouldn't get out of the second round. Every single men's pro player today serves much, much harder and has had specialized training to make them much, quicker, stronger and have greater stamina.

 

Jim Brown wouldn't be fast enough or strong enough to compete with the modern running backs and Babe Ruth never saw a 97 MPH heater or an 89 MPH slider, good luck with those sir.

 

We still like to rank those guys on lists.

[twinsnorth49]

 

If we're going to do the whole physiological difference bit to compare men and women, we don't we do it with men and men?

 

You pluck any of the great men's tennis players from the 60's or 70's and put them in the 2017 US Open and they wouldn't get out of the second round. Every single men's pro player today serves much, much harder and has had specialized training to make them much, quicker, stronger and have greater stamina.

 

Jim Brown wouldn't be fast enough or strong enough to compete with the modern running backs and Babe Ruth never saw a 97 MPH heater or an 89 MPH slider, good luck with those sir.

 

We still like to rank those guys on lists.

I remember some of my hockey heroes from the '80's being known for smoking between periods and many athletes used to come to training camp to get in shape, as opposed to coming there in peak physical condition.

 

Professional athletes these days are like a different species compared to the past, male or female.

 

 

[kab21]

 

Sigh. Not what I said and not the point of the commentary. Did you even read it?

Yes, I read the commentary and it is poor with regards to the McEnroe statement. The commentary is the one making it a fight that doesn't need to be fought. The interviewer asked him to clarify a point and led him to this 'controversial' answer. If McEnroe says that she is the best tennis player ever then she should be better than ANY tennis player. She isn't although she would be more competitive than 700th. 

 

But this (McEnroe) has nothing to do with not appreciating the elite women athlete. He made a factual statement that women can't (not yet) compete with men in sports that emphasize speed and power.

[Squirrel]

Yes, I read the commentary and it is poor with regards to the McEnroe statement. The commentary is the one making it a fight that doesn't need to be fought. The interviewer asked him to clarify a point and led him to this 'controversial' answer. If McEnroe says that she is the best tennis player ever then she should be better than ANY tennis player. She isn't although she would be more competitive than 700th. 

 

But this (McEnroe) has nothing to do with not appreciating the elite women athlete. He made a factual statement that women can't (not yet) compete with men in sports that emphasize speed and power.

I think you and I read different commentaries.

[kab21]

 

I think you and I read different commentaries.

What does the commentary have to do with McEnroe's comments? They have taken his point out of context. Serena Williams isn't the best tennis player ever. She has dominated her era of women's tennis more than any other player male or female but she isn't better than the top men.

[Squirrel]

What does the commentary have to do with McEnroe's comments? They have taken his point out of context. Serena Williams isn't the best tennis player ever. She has dominated her era of women's tennis more than any other player male or female but she isn't better than the top men.

As I said above, the commentary clearly concedes there is no contest in a physical match up. This isn't about Serena vs a male opponent and who would win. You are viewing this quite narrowly. I don't even think McEnroe was being all that serious in his response. This isn't even specifically about what McEnroe said as it was a springboard to a larger point in how we characterize male and female athletes and the need to compare. But I've already said all this.

[kab21]

 

As I said above, the commentary clearly concedes there is no contest in a physical match up. This isn't about Serena vs a male opponent and who would win. You are viewing this quite narrowly. I don't even think McEnroe was being all that serious in his response. This isn't even specifically about what McEnroe said as it was a springboard to a larger point in how we characterize male and female athletes and the need to compare. But I've already said all this.

I would specifically say that everything that you are talking about has nothing to do with McEnroe then. He is making a comment based on physical match ups.

 

This appears to be another example political overcorrectness where McEnroe can't say she is the best women's tennis player ever without it being a lightning rod for being politically incorrect. 

[Squirrel]

I would specifically say that everything that you are talking about has nothing to do with McEnroe then. He is making a comment based on physical match ups.

 

This appears to be another example political overcorrectness where McEnroe can't say she is the best women's tennis player ever without it being a lightning rod for being politically incorrect.

 

The commentary isn't specifically about McEnroe. Yes, they used that incident as a springboard to talk to a broader issue but, once again, this isn't about male vs female nor about being politically correct.

[kab21]

They named the article McEnroe... and the media has been blasting him for the comment so it is exactly about him and being politically correct. Yes, there is a broader issue but if they want that broader issue to be discussed then they should focus on that broader issue.