Goessling: Ryan perplexed by Wimmers' injury

[CDog]

Especially the part about calling Baker "soft"? When a pitcher says he has pain when he pitches, it invaraibly mean there is a problem. Baker pitched with pain for years and was poorly served by management and medical staff, alike. It was a debacle.

In at least two other threads there are mountains of quotes and evidence--much of it even supplied from the people who were trying to blame Gardenhire and Ryan--that Baker withheld information and repeatedly and publicly said he was fine. That his velocity would come. That he wasn't the least bit worried about it. That it was tendonitis and that he dealt with it every spring. That he would be able to make his home opener start (one could even take that he implied he was upset that the manager and general manager etc may not let him). So there's that. Again.

[DaveW]

I can't state it enough.

 

Both Baker and the Twins had every reason in the world to try to do everything but resort to surgery this season.

 

Why? Baker was/is an impending free agent.

 

Baker loses a ton of value by missing the season, and the Twins lose out all value on what was now a short term investment.

[jokin]

In at least two other threads there are mountains of quotes and evidence--much of it even supplied from the people who were trying to blame Gardenhire and Ryan--that Baker withheld information and repeatedly and publicly said he was fine. That his velocity would come. That he wasn't the least bit worried about it. That it was tendonitis and that he dealt with it every spring. That he would be able to make his home opener start (one could even take that he implied he was upset that the manager and general manager etc may not let him). So there's that. Again.

Because that's what true competitors always say (oft-times against their own long-term best interests). They don't make excuses or equivocate, they just say, "give me the ball". You conveniently ignore the loads of evidence of mishandling by management in this situation. It's up to the professional coaches and medical staff to accurately assess the actual situation of such a valuable team asset as the Team Ace Starter. Every quote all spring from Ryan- up to, and practically including the day that they shut Baker down- was how Baker was just fine, definitely not injured, he just had to get the elbow loose. This was the public face put on, despite Baker's gross lack of velocity and control. In the meantime they were apparently back-channeling some bad-mouthing about Baker to certain scribes about Baker's willingness to tough it out.

[Mchans24]

Actually, those calling for a front office overhaul probably came to that conclusion long before Wimmers needed surgery.

 

Also... Ryan is going to have to deal with both higher expectations for this club and decreased patience from fans to get the ship righted. We're not in the Metrodome anymore and we can only blame Bill Smith for so long.

 

Hes got at least four years of blaming Smith.........see Obama! Lol

[CDog]

You conveniently ignore the loads of evidence of mishandling by management in this situation.

Nope, sorry. That lie isn't going to fly. I read every word about it on 4 different sites at the time it was happening. I read and quoted most of it all over again two or three different times as it's come up on here.

[DPJ]

Nope, sorry. That lie isn't going to fly. I read every word about it on 4 different sites at the time it was happening. I read and quoted most of it all over again two or three different times as it's come up on here.

WOW...this is just wow.

[TheLeviathan]

Nope, sorry. That lie isn't going to fly. I read every word about it on 4 different sites at the time it was happening. I read and quoted most of it all over again two or three different times as it's come up on here.

You know what would help this truly insane position you hold? If you just acknowledged that the way they handled it with the media compared to Pavano was wrong. Then, at least on some level, you'd warrant credibility on this.

[CDog]

You know what would help this truly insane position you hold? If you just acknowledged that the way they handled it with the media compared to Pavano was wrong. Then, at least on some level, you'd warrant credibility on this.

I would be willing to bet that you couldn't say what position I hold on this, because you've repeatedly misrepresented it, put your own spin on it, and jumped to conclusions that aren't supported by what I've actually said on it. HEY...that's just like the original situation in question! That's kinda interesting.

[TheLeviathan]

I would be willing to bet that you couldn't say what position I hold on this, because you've repeatedly misrepresented it, put your own spin on it, and jumped to conclusions that aren't supported by what I've actually said on it. HEY...that's just like the original situation in question! That's kinda interesting.

You take issue everytime it's suggested that the Twins handled this situation poorly. If you don't care to articulate your position, don't whine when people have to make assumptions.

 

This is now the third time I've asked you to explain your position. By all means - because what you convey is pure insanity in defending a mishandled situation.

[CDog]

You take issue everytime it's suggested that the Twins handled this situation poorly. If you don't care to articulate your position, don't whine when people have to make assumptions.

 

This is now the third time I've asked you to explain your position. By all means - because what you convey is pure insanity in defending a mishandled situation.

The first sentence is just not true. I take issue every time someone tries to exaggerate, lie, or misrepresent what the situation was or how it was handled. I've articulated very clearly in other topics on this subject and in other threads and conversations where it's more directly on topic that if you (general you) look at facts, quotes, situations and come to a conclusion that something was done poorly or mishandled then that's your opinion and that is all it is. If you make up BS, add your own "facts" to the situation, or misrepresent what happened to try and pass off your opinion...well that's garbage and makes you (general you) a (br)ass (b)owl.

 

The boiled down version of what happened (again, because I "have to" I guess): Baker kept going out and throwing around 10 mph slower than he's normally been capable. He kept saying he was fine over and over (we later found he was not) and that he wasn't remotely concerned about his velocity returning. Gardnhire and Ryan eventually got fed up and said if he's fine, then he needs to show it. That's my "position." I don't know if I've ever stated an opinion on it, to be honest. I'm not sure it matters. If you'd like it, here it is: Baker overestimated himself and probably believed he would get healthy. Athletes are often ridiculously self-delusional in that way. And because of that he didn't really think he was "lying" to the trainers, etc, but he was. Gardenhire and Ryan probably should have expressed their thoughts to the media more carefully. Frustration leads to things coming out wrong or seeming like they're said with different intent than they are. The end.

[TheLeviathan]

Frustration leads to things coming out wrong or seeming like they're said with different intent than they are. The end.

So it's ok for you to assume what Gardy and Ryan "intended" to say but not others? You just assume they meant well, others assume they meant to dog him. You're climbing all over people for the exact same thing you're doing, just with different opinions. No one denies Baker was lying. The difference is they assume he was lying precisely because he didn't want to be labeled soft and have the team go to the media. They did anyway, but about his lying. (Poor guy can't win!) And then, hypocritically just a month later, brushed Pavano doing the same thing under the rug!

 

It's real simple - Baker should have been more honest. But this is also a club that has made it quite known to the public (and thus the players) that they don't like whiners. Slowey, Perkins, and many others have been listed as examples of this. Baker may have felt forced to put on his tough guy hat because otherwise he'd get Slowey'd. There is nothing more valid about your version of the events than anyone else - quit trying to pretend you have any facts that back you up. You're making assumptions.

 

The real hypocrisy, and why this deserves to be ripped, is because they went public about Baker and then were quiet, unassuming, and still complimentary about the EXACT SAME SITUATION with Pavano. ("The guy was trying to gut it out") Hell, at least Baker was just lying about ST starts - Pavano was hurting the team when the games counted and they STILL didn't say a word about him to the media.

[CDog]

So it's ok for you to assume what Gardy and Ryan "intended" to say but not others? You just assume they meant well, others assume they meant to dog him. You're climbing all over people for the exact same thing you're doing, just with different opinions. No one denies Baker was lying. The difference is they assume he was lying precisely because he didn't want to be labeled soft and have the team go to the media. They did anyway, but about his lying. (Poor guy can't win!) And then, hypocritically just a month later, brushed Pavano doing the same thing under the rug!

 

It's real simple - Baker should have been more honest. But this is also a club that has made it quite known to the public (and thus the players) that they don't like whiners. Slowey, Perkins, and many others have been listed as examples of this. Baker may have felt forced to put on his tough guy hat because otherwise he'd get Slowey'd. There is nothing more valid about your version of the events than anyone else - quit trying to pretend you have any facts that back you up. You're making assumptions.

 

The real hypocrisy, and why this deserves to be ripped, is because they went public about Baker and then were quiet, unassuming, and still complimentary about the EXACT SAME SITUATION with Pavano. ("The guy was trying to gut it out") Hell, at least Baker was just lying about ST starts - Pavano was hurting the team when the games counted and they STILL didn't say a word about him to the media.

Except I haven't assumed what Gardy and Ryan were intending to say. I have read what they actually said. Which has really been my whole point. I don't get why you want to keep picking this same scab and trying to claim things that just aren't true. It makes no sense. And as for picking scabs, the Pavano thing is a different situation and has been discussed elsewhere so there's no point in beating our heads into the wall there.

[TheLeviathan]

Except I haven't assumed what Gardy and Ryan were intending to say. I have read what they actually said. Which has really been my whole point. I don't get why you want to keep picking this same scab and trying to claim things that just aren't true. It makes no sense. And as for picking scabs, the Pavano thing is a different situation and has been discussed elsewhere so there's no point in beating our heads into the wall there.

How is Pavano any different!?! He pitched with no strength in his arm for multiple starts until the team pulled him. The only difference, is that Pavano was hurting the team when it counts!

 

And yes, you are assuming intention. You're assuming that what they said should be taken at pure face value, with no intent to hurt Baker. That is an assumption. It's a particularly big assumption when you take into account the fact that this team has passive-aggressively dogged multiple players in recent years. That list is also well stated on the forum.

 

Your position is akin to sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "la la la" because you refuse to acknowledge the team handled it poorly. There was ZERO reason to go to the media with any of those concerns. But they did it to Baker and protected their boy Pavano to the bitter end.

[CDog]

How is Pavano any different!?! He pitched with no strength in his arm for multiple starts until the team pulled him. The only difference, is that Pavano was hurting the team when it counts!

 

And yes, you are assuming intention. You're assuming that what they said should be taken at pure face value, with no intent to hurt Baker. That is an assumption. It's a particularly big assumption when you take into account the fact that this team has passive-aggressively dogged multiple players in recent years. That list is also well stated on the forum.

 

Your position is akin to sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "la la la" because you refuse to have the same opinion that I do. .

Not going to re-hash the reasons they're different situations. They are obvious, many, and I already did it once so I don't see the point in doing it again.

 

No, I'm not. I read what was reported, took it for what it was, have my own opinions on it. I've not once tried to claim they said something they didn't, nor denied things they did. I don't get why you keep claiming that I have. It's one thing to be obstinate, it's another to invent things to complain about that haven't even taken place. I believe it's what you like to refer to as trolling.

 

And I fixed your final paragraph in the quote above.

[TheLeviathan]

nor denied things they did.

Delusional. Check. We all got it - no need to respond the next time someone posts something about how the team mishandled his situation to the press.

 

You're absolutely right that you've said it to death - I'm done trying to help you see your own delusion.

[CDog]

Delusional. Check. We all got it - no need to respond the next time someone posts something about how the team mishandled his situation to the press.

 

You're absolutely right that you've said it to death - I'm done trying to help you see your own delusion.

Yes, speaking only about actual quotes (and providing them) and keeping my opinion about them to myself until directly asked is very, very delusional.

[CDog]

quit trying to pretend you have any facts that back you up.

You mean like providing the actual quotes?

 

I promise this, when someone comes along and claims Ryan or Gardenhire said something like, "Baker is the toughest guy on our team and we're happy with him throwing 85 mph" that I'll be first in line to point out that it's garbage. I'll probably even provide the actual quotes.

[CDog]

You just assume they meant well, others assume they meant to dog him.

 

he didn't want to be labeled soft and have the team go to the media. They did anyway.

I actually never assumed that, nor ever stated that. I've provided what was actually said. For the millionth time (number provided is an estimate), you've decided what I think despite no evidence and decided to try and pick a fight over it. Do you need something to complain about THAT badly that you have to invent them?

 

As for the second part there, that cute little bit of fiction is pretty awesome. You've imagined a scenario and decided that it's fact. Is there some chance they (Gardy/Ryan) were ASKED about the situation somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 times by various reporters? Maybe 100 times? 10? Or that they ran right over to find the nearest reporter that they could bitch to?

[TheLeviathan]

May whatever diety you believe in help you - cuz living in a purely literal world has to make you one goofy sucker. I pity your inability to see context and implication. Yo're like a goofy SNL caricature.

 

"the man who can only understand literal meaning"

 

When Slowey said "I cant throw out of the pen" were you bashing Blyleven and the other clowns? How abput Perkins? Nevermind I'm sure you'll hide behind "different situations." Jesus.

[TheLeviathan]

I Maybe 100 times? 10? Or that they ran right over to find the nearest reporter that they could bitch to?

I hear Sid had a gun. Made Gardy say it!

[old nurse]

I hear Sid had a gun. Made Gardy say it!

This has gone from maddening, to funny, back to maddening, back to funny. I think at this point I'm burnt out on this garbage.

 

On this thread I am going to agree with what you said earlier

[Willihammer]

The real hypocrisy, and why this deserves to be ripped, is because they went public about Baker and then were quiet, unassuming, and still complimentary about the EXACT SAME SITUATION with Pavano. ("The guy was trying to gut it out") Hell, at least Baker was just lying about ST starts - Pavano was hurting the team when the games counted and they STILL didn't say a word about him to the media.

Yes the FO pandered to the rubes who after 2011 contructed a toughness dichotomy whereby Mauer, Morneau were 'softies' and Pavano, Capps, Nathan, were 'tough guys.' The FO was and continues to be in denial regarding their susceptibility to the current league-wide TJ epidemic. In reality, the Twins are as immune to broken elbows as Aunt Jemima is immune to diabetes. If the doctors hastened to perform TJ then the blame falls to the soft-tossing contact philosophy and thus the FO who preaches it at all levels of the system.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I'm pretty sure the toughness dichotomy comes from Gardy more than anything else He has his guys. Pavano and Capps were quite clearly his guys and were treated accordingly. It didn't matter that they were ineffective.

[Brock Beauchamp]

A reminder to everyone. NO PERSONAL INSULTS.

 

You can call an idea a bad one but you can't call a person an idiot. Attack the idea, not the person. It's not hard.

 

With that said, tone it down a little in this thread. I know we're all frustrated with the team but there's no reason to start making it personal.

[DaveW]

It's not a forum issue, its an issue of a couple of posters. I'm not a fan of bannings, but when threads are getting derailed left and right by the same 2 or 3 you should think about issuing out some temp bans or something pig.

 

It has nothing to do with positive or negative, there are a couple people who continue to crap up the place. While I may not agree with a guy like Thrylos on many topics at least he brings value to threads in new information/new thoughts.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I've been keeping track of the offenders, Dave. It's a frustrating time to be a Twins fan, we're all a little on edge. I'm giving everyone a little time to simmer down and if it doesn't improve, actions will be taken.

[DaveW]

I've been keeping track of the offenders, Dave.

Surprised you have had time to between your frequent frankenberry feedings these days.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Surprised you have had time to between your frequent frankenberry feedings these days.

I haven't gotten much sleep, that's for sure.

[jokin]

I've been keeping track of the offenders, Dave. It's a frustrating time to be a Twins fan, we're all a little on edge. I'm giving everyone a little time to simmer down and if it doesn't improve, actions will be taken.

Good, ironic that a name-calling insulter should be the immediate post after yours calling for the banning of insulters. I have no doubt you are keeping track of the "spirit" of intention in Dave's personal insults when he chooses the path of most obtusivity.

[Highabove]

Surprised you have had time to between your frequent frankenberry feedings these days.

Frankenberry?? That brings back childhood memories. LOL

 

 

 

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