Dozens killed by truck in France

[Badsmerf]

That's fair and sensible.  I found myself akin to thinking that religions don't kill people, people kill people.  Ugh.

That's pretty funny, but exactly why I used that analogy. Obviously guns and religions aren't the same, so it's not perfect.

 

We have to get creative with how we defeat oppressive Islam, as I'm now going to call it, so we can all agree. We all know the social and economical problems that drastically increase the effectiveness of that message. The problem with relying on throwing money at it (i know hasn't been suggested) and education is the oppressors will take the money, and the current society will shun or take over the schools.

 

We need a Trojan horse of some kind.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I'd worry about alienating Christians by blaming Christianity for the emergence of West Baptist's propaganda (whatever truth there might be to it).  The analogy you seem to be making is west-baptist:Christians::more-than-just-radical-Islam:moderate-Islam. No ones worried about alienating the radicals...

 

I find consistency extremely important on this, because it does reflect your values on this issue.  If you insist on not alienating Christians either and are just as careful tip-toeing the issue than kudos to you.  I can agree with at least part of your stance, if I still disagree somewhat.

 

But wouldn't you agree that, in general, this isn't true?  You (and me for that matter, but I'm well aware of that) are not the norm?  If the left just held your position we'd be debating how galvanized we should or shouldn't be to help the voiceless and that's a tough conversation.  But, as evidenced by people far more accomplished than me on this topic, there is real push back from the left on anyone that does hold Islam to the same standards.  Anyone with the gall to talk about the role Islam plays is shouted down as a bigot. That, for me, is a huge problem.  One that I just can't accept continuing.  That's where my frustrations come from.

 

As for your analogy it's hard for me to answer, but I'd try this way: moderate Muslims are not people I'm as worried about alienating.  That may sound weird, but I have confidence those people will understand this is not an endeavor to hate Islam, but to reform it to reflect their own beliefs.  Because, and let's be honest, the West Baptist schmucks are not equivalents to radical Islam.  On the Christian side there probably isn't an equivalent in today's world.  The West Baptists are probably more like the lieutenants out in the Muslim world that are preaching a gospel of less outwardly violent oppression that is far more common there, but still very dangerous and conducive to the problem.  You're criticism that my posts on page 5/6 or whatever should've been what I lead with are fair, but my concern for this topic isn't born out of bigotry.  In fact, it's a visceral cry against it in all forms by any perpetrators without qualification.  So when people try to look past the pivotal, central role Islam plays as the glue to all these problems, it sounds like qualifications.  Or justifications.  Or just plain denial.

 

I don't accept that in my stance here, or in my support of BLM, or any other important social issue.  I don't think most liberals do either, but there is a weird blind spot on this issue I find incredibly frustrating.

[TheLeviathan]

As much as this conversation has been about what the left wishes to deny; for great swath of this thread people had trouble acknowledging any kind of moderate element of Islam.  So there's a problem of framing on both sides.

 

 

I also wanted to strongly strongly disagree with this.  

 

Mike, Dave, and you Psuedo - all started making demonstrably false argument about what segment of the population in Muslim countries supports oppressive policies/violence.  You repeatedly, falsely, painted the picture as being about some tiny fraction of the populace.  I cited a study that makes that clear by region and by percentage.  It makes it abundantly clear that while there is not widespread acceptance of terrorist tactics (though, even then, literally millions that do support it), there is widespread acceptance about just about every other form of oppression going on.  

 

Again - millions of people are oppressors.  Millions do endorse forms of terror.  Millions are active and complicit in oppression and/or violence.

 

Myself, Smerf, and Bark have tried (repeatedly!) to frame the argument in data and facts and the replies were all emotional.  Replies consistently avoiding that acknowledgement so we could instead talk about some nebulous web of reasons why, as if we can even identify them in some meaningful way. (I doubt we can)  And, when all else fails, rather than accept the facts we start attacking the messenger.

 

So, no, I didn't come out and hold up moderate Muslims, I don't really think I should've had to.  No one was attempting any commentary on them.  They aren't part of the problem that is being cited in the data.  We're not talking about the very nature of Islam or those practicing their faith in peace and love, we're talking about the widespread practice of Islam to oppress.  So I've already put them aside because they're wonderful people who aren't part of the problem.  The conversation has already been narrowed.  It was you that expanded it out to them, not me.  (This argument should feel familiar to another one going on right now)

 

Think of how many times the same argument you are using is used falsely, maliciously, and unfairly.  When you say "we have a problem with cops and how they handle black people" - how do you feel when some schmuck says "hey, it's not all cops - you better say that!"  My guess, is that you feel that should be able to go unsaid.  That of course you don't feel that.  That the whole effort to force you to say that is really just a backhand to smear you personally.  

 

So I have to ask: Haven't you had this same bull **** charge to caveat your argument thrust upon you enough to drop it from your own use?  

[twinsnorth49]

Islam is not the problem, I am not wrong.

 

The Pew Poll is an interesting study, but falls woefully short of being a conclusive condemnation on Islam. It is incomplete and allows for no nuance, it is a broad stroke.

 

I am well read, many are not. There is a fundamental misunderstanding and ignorance about Islam and Shariah throughout this discussion. It myopic and so are the the Western analogies.

 

Bill Maher should not be placed on a pedestal.  He's wrong about a lot of things.

 

What Donald Trump says frames nothing I believe or say.

 

I urge people to gain a fuller understanding of Islam and Shariah Law. I urge people to see how Islamist States use their version of it for violence and oppression and how this plays a part in what the people in those regions think.  Islamist States are not in keeping with the historical traditions of Islam and they do not abide by it's teachings and therefore are exempt from being adherents to Islam. They are false, plain and simple. 

 

There are many examples to be shown, perhaps I'll have the inclination to provide some in time, but not until the grandstanding and rhetoric stops.

 

I respect everyone in this conversation as intelligent people. Things are being viewed through a certain lens though and that lens is blurred. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

Look, what you just said sounds good, but I'm not buying it.  It sound like another argument about what "Islam really is".  If that's the route you're going down I'd stop you.  That exercise is no more useful or helpful than a conversation about a rorshach drawing.  I'm not here to say what Islam is really about.  Or Christianity.  Or Kim Kardashian.  Or the true purpose of guns.  All of those are dead ends.  I'm talking about the actual practice of the religion in the real world right now.  There is much, much more than the Pew study to indicate that the practice, in large regions of the world, is very violent and oppressive.

 

So, I'd be very much interested in reading some counter-evidence to that practice, if indeed you have some to provide.  If this is going to be some meta-theological debate, I'd say it's totally missing the point.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Again - millions of people are oppressors.  Millions do endorse forms of terror.  Millions are active and complicit in oppression and/or violence.

 

Myself, Smerf, and Bark have tried (repeatedly!) to frame the argument in data and facts and the replies were all emotional. 

LOL.  My favorite fact: "I know I am right because I value human decency."

 

The blog you cite, totally bastardizes a 2013 Pew research study, extrapolating out to total population instead of using those actual surveyed. You're not working with facts, you're working with supposition, and if you think you've been sanitized of emotion in making your arguments, well your just not being honest with yourself.

 

I did find this

 

http://www.pewresearch.org/files/2015/11/FT_15.11.17_isis_views.png

 

Which, does suggest millions support ISIS/terror, but it better frames it in terms of the BILLIONS who do not favor such acts.  Again, the issue is framing, you've been doing it dishonestly throughout the thread.  I'll repeat, that I have no doubt millions latently support ISIS, the basis of some of that obviously Islam, but the vast majority of Muslims, evidently do not.  If we are looking for way to reform Islam, it looks like the solution might already be found within Islam. (I know this isn't comprehensive.  I don't offer this 'evidence' to suggest I am right; just that you should back off your certitude and acknowledge the reason of those who resist your blanket rhetoric.)

 

I also found this interesting.

http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2011/07/2011-Muslim-West-16.png

Just food for thought.  

 

 

I agree with North here, that we're all coming from a place of imperfect information.  And, I for one, don't know enough about the practices of Islam to really weigh in with any kind of certitude about how those practices necessarily lead to terror. (The Muslims I actually know, I don't see it, but that's admittedly non-representative).

[TheLeviathan]

Of course they are estimated exteapolations...is there some other way to ballpark such figures? I don't think we will get a survey out to everyone. Turning percentages into hard numbers makes denial arguments a lot more absurd.

 

No one is arguing there is overwhelming support for ISIS, that has been made abundantly clear and done so repeatedly. What is being argued is there is widespread support, in several large regional areas, for oppression of women, free speech, gays, non Mudlims, and other marginal groups.

 

No more strawman please. I agree our info is imperfect, but rarely is it any other way on any subject.

[PseudoSABR]

 

No more strawman please. I agree our info is imperfect, but rarely is it any other way on any subject.

Look, it's hard to know what you're vehemently arguing at this point that somehow myself and others disagree with.   The notion that 5 to 10 percent support radical elements doesn't seem particularly controversial; the push back has always been about the rhetoric that Islam is the real/inherent/root of the problem.  

 

Part my point is that you've been arguing against some politically-correct liberal straw man; and you haven't exactly made a good faith effort to find where you actually agree with those who you claim are somehow on the other side.   

[TheLeviathan]

The politically correct liberal argument was the first one made in this thread.

 

The notion that this regressive, oppressive practice of Islam is a tiny fraction problem is false. It is widespread in several large regions. (Namely the middle east and south asia)

 

Do you agree or no?

[formerly33]

 

What is being argued is there is widespread support, in several large regional areas, for oppression of women, free speech, gays, non Muslims, and other marginal groups.

But this is a completely different topic, isn't it? Isn't comparing this to ISIS the same as comparing your average conservative Christian to, say, Westboro Baptist? We don't need to wait for Westboro Baptist to decide something's wrong with homophobia, do we? Shouldn't we address separate issues separately?

[TheLeviathan]

I never compared them to ISIS other than what is central to both as a tool and justification - Islam. Hence the larger point.

 

A reformation of the religion would go a long way to solving both.

[twinsnorth49]

 

  I'm talking about the actual practice of the religion in the real world right now.  There is much, much more than the Pew study to indicate that the practice, in large regions of the world, is very violent and oppressive.

 

So, I'd be very much interested in reading some counter-evidence to that practice, if indeed you have some to provide.  If this is going to be some meta-theological debate, I'd say it's totally missing the point.

Yes, in totalitarian  Islamist States that choose to use the Quran as a literal interpretation as means to their end. The people are  not practicing some abhorrent, violent version of Islam, the jurists are, and they are not jurists. You honestly think in some of the regions polled by Pew you would get a different response than one that is put forth by the regime, including  places in Africa and Southeast Asia as well., ? You go there, speak out against the injustices of the regime and let  me know how it works out for you. I find it incredibly naive for the results of the Pew poll to be taken entirely at face value. 

 

Furthermore, just because someone says they support stoning an adulterer or cutting off the hands of a thief doesn't mean they want to see that happen  and would trust that the people in charge of making such a decision would properly judge the case and rule based on precedent and the proper interpretation of the Quran, which would be to avoid it at all costs and only in the  most extreme cases administer those punishments. Every bit of justice in the Quran is couched with mercy as the primary, motivating teaching. In fact, according to the laws, it is damn near impossible to sentence an adulterer to stoning based on the criteria required, and that is because it is meant for only the severest of cases  that threaten morality as a whole. It is illegal to cut off the hands of a thief who stole because they are hungry, or if they are in need of medicine.  Stonings and the cutting of hands are meant as deterrents, just as the death penalty still is in the US, but actually have a much greater burden of proof. 

 

Extremism is the problem, in a way you are perpetrating the same things as the extremists are by picking and choosing the most extreme examples and holding them up to be examples of proof. They are not, it misses the totality of the concepts and beliefs, which do matter. The strokes are way to broad and that is relevant, no matter how much you insist it's not.  This is not the way Islam is practiced in most of the World, it is the way in which it is being imposed. Why are the leaders in Islamist States not held to the same judgment as they hand down to the people? They are breaking the pillars of Islam, why are they not accountable to the same literal interpretations? 

 

What parts of Islam would you change in order to fix the problem we face? Which scriptures or beliefs need to be amended so that we can avoid the atrocities we are facing today? If the people in these regions didn't live under such oppressive regimes and did not face the crushing social conditions they face today, would we be questioning Islam? Why does Shariah Law seem to work in Israel and India? 

 

Changing Islam isn't going to help, and it doesn't need to happen (and it's not going to happen). What needs to happen is for the world (including all Muslims) to end the Totalitarian regimes that operate in many of these countries and improve the conditions in which the people live. Extremists aren't born from the religion, they are born from their social conditions and this plays the biggest role imo.

 

You say it yourself, it's the practice of the religion in the real world that needs to change, not the religion. Maybe we're really agreeing in principle, but I don't think we agree on what the head of the beast is. I don't think nearly as many Muslims believe or support things in the literal way you and others seem to believe. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bark's Lounge]

I'm gonna switch gears here and say a few things that are meant with the utmost respect and sincerity.

 

Any extreme in any religion is a headache, some bigger than others. This we all know. Nobody will reform Islam except for Muslims. Outsiders doing as such is just not realistic.

 

But, as most will agree, it is awful to see the mass killings of all these people across the globe because of an extreme group of people that affiliate it with a religion. It's awful. It is a nightmare.

 

It would be wise to welcome the refugees from countries that are governed by these Fascist Islamic Regimes with open arms and make a better effort to make there experience more of the American, Canadian, British, European, Australian dream. Governments and people of these western nations have failed these people. We need to get this right.

 

All of these nations have other problems and that concept might fall off the list. It is apparent that needs to be a priority and never fall off of the list and needs to be executed all of the time.

 

Maybe if we do these things, it will weaken Islamism, which is not spread by Theocrats, but by professionals like Doctors, Teachers, etc., etc...

 

We certainly have Theocratic Governments on this Earth. In the end, I would like to see that eliminated, along with the Islamist groups who want to spread Super Conservative agendas about the religion to vulnerable regions.

 

I'm not some dope kicking the can around in American and don't give a crap about what is going on globally. I grew up in the ghetto and seen the struggles of African Americans, Latino Americans, Southeast Asian Americans, and White Americans. There is no hope there. Usually people who come from that background are not on sites like this typing something whether it is good or bad.

 

And it's not like I am some success story, for the most part I have failed in the decisions that I have made and now I am forced to go back to school as 41 year old person. I wanted to be established by this time in my life. Time is running out.

 

Sorry, to drag my mess into this, but I am not going to delete it as it is venting my own frustrations along with my world frustrations and maybe it puts a little human light on me as I have been called a bigot on this thread in the last day+. I am no bigot, I only have posted on this thread because I care.

 

All I want to see happen is inclusion for the displaced, hopefuls and dreamers and the end of all Theocracies.

[TheLeviathan]

Ok, I'd cut out the parts I'm replying to but it's really hard on my phone so hopefully I'm not misinterpreting you:

 

1) You seem to imply toppling totalitarian regimes is the path, but isn't that the central mistake behind the Iraq war? How do you rectify that claim with what has happened too frequently? Namely, that regimes fall and are often replaced by even more hard line Islamists?

 

I agree that it needs to happen, but I feel it has to come from a ground swell of a reformed Islam.

 

2.I can cite a host of information that verifies the Pew opinions match brutality actually happening, but what can you provide to help show that this is something people say they believe but don't act on? (That seemed to be your argument)

 

I know, for exsmple, that three women a day in Pakistan, at minimum, are victims of honor killings. We could talk about acid, women's education, gay rights, and more. These are things I can demonstrate as facts. How can you prove your claim?

 

3. I don't mean by "change" that we get white out for the Quran, what we need is a reformation of practice. You can be right that the practice is being warped from the top down, but change will need to come bottom up. And that change has to come from within believers of Islam.

 

Perhaps we agree on both?

[twinsnorth49]

 

Ok, I'd cut out the parts I'm replying to but it's really hard on my phone so hopefully I'm not misinterpreting you:

I agree that it needs to happen, but I feel it has to come from a ground swell of a reformed Islam.

 

1) You seem to imply toppling totalitarian regimes is the path, but isn't that the central mistake behind the Iraq war? How do you rectify that claim with what has happened too frequently? Namely, that regimes fall and are often replaced by even more hard line Islamists?

 

Agreed 100%, this is very difficult to rectify and I won't pretend to have the answers. Another Iraq or Afghanistan is certainly not the solution but if we're going to talk about human rights abuses and fixing Islam, it must involve those most responsible for the abuses. As unrealistic as it may be, it's going to take a united effort among first world countries, without self interest, as well as initiatives from Muslims within those countries themselves.

Quote
2.I can cite a host of information that verifies the Pew opinions match brutality actually happening, but what can you provide to help show that this is something people say they believe but don't act on? (That seemed to be your argument)
I know, for exsmple, that three women a day in Pakistan, at minimum, are victims of honor killings. We could talk about acid, women's education, gay rights, and more. These are things I can demonstrate as facts. How can you prove your claim?

 

Brutality happens in many places and for many reasons. I didn't say it doesn't happen, I said I don't believe the majority of people in many of these countries perpetrate this brutality , even though through the simple interpretation of the poll it indicates they do. What brutality are you referring to btw? People in all countries commit atrocious acts in the name of religion, how does this become the majority? None of the things you mention are permitted in Islam and if fact are crimes themselves. Honour killings are strictly forbidden and so is taking any justice into your own hands. What do these have to do with Islam? These are cultural issues that need to be solved through education.

I also didn't say Islam is without it's social problems, but I would argue that under more progressive and sensible leadership many of these issues would be advanced, as it historically has. Literacy rates are extremely high in many Muslim majority countries. Islam is not misogynistic, Muslim societies are and many of them differ quite dramatically. Pakistan is a curiosity considering a women was once it's Head of State. There is also lots of evidence to show that classical jurists struggled with what to with homosexuality, indicating more openness than maybe we believe. Again, under the current situation in many countries, progress is virtually impossible.

 

Quote

3. I don't mean by "change" that we get white out for the Quran, what we need is a reformation of practice. You can be right that the practice is being warped from the top down, but change will need to come bottom up. And that change has to come from within believers of Islam.
Perhaps we agree on both?

 

 

Well, there isn't much that needs to be whited out from the Quran,  most of the things we've been talking about don't exist in it to begin with. Regardless I agree with your  statement entirely, the change in perception, education and practice has to come from within the Muslim community. It is the only possible solution. I definitely agree on both.

[TheLeviathan]

Points 1/3 - See I think we have agreed all along.  Saying the problem is Islam just means that Islam is the primary tool that is keeping things oppressive, but also the tool best used to fix the situation.  Just like the last major religious reformation. But because of how pervasive the influence is (just like Catholicism 1,000 years ago) the only way we're going to see any meaningful change is to and through Islam.  

 

Regime change won't work, but we can and should support the reformers.  

 

Point 2:  You're down the path of "what is Islam really about" again.  I can argue Jesus has nothing to do with bigotry towards gays, but his followers are far and away the greatest oppressors of gays in our country.  Whether their holy text really allows for that or not is a dead end conversation.  It's that way on this issue too.  We can even agree Islam doesn't really allow for it, but it doesn't get us anywhere because the practice is still happening regardless.

 

Honor killings are happening at crazy rates.  Or throwing acid.  I could also post literacy rates for women in these regions.  Gay rights too.

 

Look, I think your argument falls down right here: arguing Muslim states are somehow distinguishable from Islam is just false.  These aren't secular countries.  In fact, that's one of the primary goals I have for a reformation of Islam - get the religion out of the government.  But that's not the case.  

 

So, yeah, let's get progressive and sensible leaders in place......by reforming the religion and ousting them.  As it is now, the population is fine with having regressive fundamentalists because they largely agree with them.  Until that component changes, by a reformation in practice and interpretation of Islam, those same leaders will stay in power.  (Or they'll put even worse guys in their place)

[twinsnorth49]

Point 2 is nothing more than saying there is nothing to fix, it's  not about changing religion, it's about education and teaching tolerance, just like Christians. It's not a dead end conversation, blaming the religion is just the wrong conversation.

 

 

So honour killings are not allowed in Islam but let's blame it anyway? Ok, well rape and murder aren't allowed under Buddhist beliefs but I'm blaming it anyway. People committing crimes, even in the name of religion is not a religious issue, it's a moral issue.

 

Muslim states are distinguishable from Islam, not all of them rely entirely on Islamic Law, ironically Pakistan, the one you bring up the most. Many of them are a blend of Shariah and secular law and they don't run around stoning people or cutting their hands off. 

 

Populations are fine with having regressive fundamentalists because of the conditions under which they live, the terror they are faced with and the lack of education to know any better. Propaganda is a powerful tool and fundamentalists know how to use it. Russians used to support their governments once upon a time as well, what they were being told was their truth. Until it wasn't.

 

Look, I'm not changing your mind and you're not changing mine. We have a fundamental disagreement on where the issue stems from, go ahead and call me wrong, I'm ok with that. I believe that the religion requires some reformation, yes that needs to happen through Islam, but not by changing it, just changing the way people understand it. Perhaps we are talking about the same thing really.

 

Good discussion, I've learned a lot but it's just going in circles now.

[TheLeviathan]

My only comment to your post would be this:

 

Saying what the religion should be versus what it is, is a distinction without a difference. At least not for meaningful change in the world. What does it matter what the theological consensus is (and is this even a real thing? When is the last time that happened with any religion?) when the practice is something else.

 

Islam is the unifying factor. It is what is being abused, misrepresented, and accepted as is. Without changing that belief system through the believers the cycle will just continue.

 

So while you are welcome to distinguish the essence of the belief from the believers, I don't find that distinction particularly useful for effecting change in the real world. Any church is only as good as its members.

[twinsnorth49]

The essence of the belief has to be brought to the believers and the believers have to understand the essence of the belief.  If this is what we agree on, fine by me.

[TheLeviathan]

I feel like our difference can be summed up like this:

 

You: "We need to reform Islamic practice to be what it really is about (peace, dignity)"

 

Me: "We need to reform Islamic practice to better respect peace and dignity"

 

For me, I'd rather convince people of what is important and have them align their faith. Reason being, telling people their faith interpretation has it wrong is typically a non starter. Hard either way, I admit.

 

Either way, we are changing the problem by addressing Islam. That's the key.

[biggentleben]

http://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/Just+back+away+slowly+and+runnnnnnn_c189d9_3839276.gif