Why do announcers use antiquated stats?

[Oxtung]

I think this answers the larger question.

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2014-04-01/fixing-baseballs-old-people-problem-with-merchandise-highlights

 

The viewers consuming games have had a lifetime of traditional stats and they intuitively understand them. Those stats might not be perfect but the game makes perfect sense when most people hear them. As people age they become more entrenched in their traditions, that's not to say there aren't exceptions, and when that is your fan base by and large there should be an expectation that traditional stats are used.

 

That said I hate it. So much so that my GF now hates it when announcers talk about pitcher wins or errors because she then has to listen to my rant

[woody knows all]

Traditional stats are much better.  The batting avg with RISP is the one of the best stats I can think of.  It is easier to get a base hit in the 7th inning with runners on in a 7-1 game.  But what about that hit in the 3rd inning with the score tied at 2-2.  Another one is when the starting pitcher with a lot of strikeouts can be misleading if they never pitch into the 7th inning. I think that is what Bert is always trying to say.  How many guys want to finish games these days.  It is also funny when other teams starter is at 115 pitchers.  It is like this guy is Superman, how in the world has his arm not fallen off yet.  Starting pitcher with Wins is a misleading stat.  But most people only look at AVG, RBIs, and HRs, for a hitter, and Wins, ERA, and K's for a starting pitcher. 

[Oxtung]

The thing about the word "error" is it doubles for "mistake" which is really all that needs to be said when describing the defense on those plays. I don't really need a dissertation from Dickbert on how 97% of shortstops handle a ball hit to that vector and misplaying those balls result on average in a negative run value of x-fraction of a run? Just call it an error and move on.

I'm pretty much exactly opposite in view points. I can see if something was an error and have no need to have dick just retell what exactly is happening on the screen or going off on his generic errors are bad mantra. I'd much rather him tell me how poorly played the ball was (...93% of the time shortstops can handle those balls and when they don't it leads to trouble. When runners are on 1st and 2nd with two outs the lead runner scores 46% of the time.) now I know exactly how bad that play was and what the consequences are likely to be. Or on the flip side something like "only 2% of center fielders have made that play this year. That was truly a spectacular play!"

[Zachary]

Baseball ratings have a hard enough time competing for viewers these days anyways. They don't need the likes of DickBert spewing new Acronyms every half inning. 

 

http://replygif.net/thumbnail/615.gif

 

Also, words of Michael Scott to live by: K.I.S.S. Keep it simple, stupid. That's the manner in which people like information given to them. 

 

"Oh, no It's just the of (HRs - PAs + GUMPDANGLEDOOS times FoulBallsCaughtByOverzealousBoyfriends) / (singles + doubles + BABIP + called third strikes ) 

[The Wise One]

I don't watch baseball as much as you guys. I guess I watch what is going on in the game rather than listen to the person talking. If you need to figure out why the announcers talk the way they do go look at the comment sections of any internet media like stories posted on yahoo. Those are the people the announcers are talking to.

[woody knows all]

That is great wise one.  All of us should have our idea of what a great play is and what a bad play is.  Why do we need stats from computer geeks telling us?  I know when a player gets a lucky hit or maybe strikes out, but at least saw 6 pitches and it was a good AB.  

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

"OPS... It's a fundamental part of the sport that has been around for 60 or so years"

 

"On-base plus slugging was first popularized in 1984"...wikopedia

I meant the core pieces of OPS - SLG and OBP - have been in use for 60 or so years. I seem to recall SLG was invented in the 50s but I could be making that up (there were several versions of a SLG-like stat that people used for short periods of time). Going from hazy memories of articles read long ago.

 

OPS isn't really a stat... It's two other stats added together. Hell, the popular triple slash doesn't even use OPS because it's redundant.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Traditional stats are much better.  The batting avg with RISP is the one of the best stats I can think of.  It is easier to get a base hit in the 7th inning with runners on in a 7-1 game.  But what about that hit in the 3rd inning with the score tied at 2-2.  Another one is when the starting pitcher with a lot of strikeouts can be misleading if they never pitch into the 7th inning.

Can't tell if serious. The third inning part is throwing me off.

[Brock Beauchamp]

BTW, I love the use of the word "geek" in this thread. It's quite telling about the age and mentality of the poster who uses it.

 

Guess what hasn't been an insult since the year 2000? The word "geek".

 

Yeah, I'm a geek. I'm relatively intelligent, can figure stuff out, and know how to do stuff like build computers or websites.

 

OoohoooohhOooohhhh. Sick burn, bro.

[Platoon]

Whoa there, that's a bit much. Aaron Gleeman's okay in small doses, but his delivery is waaay too nerdy for broadcasts, not to mention his format, which half the time is broadcasting from bars. Would the Twins be okay with their announcers getting slowly plastered while chatting up a pretty waitress? Would they be okay with constant talk about what a bad season this guy or that guy has had, how totally mediocre all the prospects are, how their veterans are over the hill, etc?

 

Broadcasters are not there just to talk baseball. It's a job in sales, so they're paid to be upbeat, promote the team, to get people to come to the stadium. You can deviate from that basic formula if some guy is obviously dogging it, but if the audience hears a constant stream of negative criticism, listeners will simply think it's too much of a downer, and they'll go away. Management will not cut checks for that. Negative criticism will always be relegated to free media.

Your point on the sales job is excellent. Too often we forget that these are not impartial announcers, they are arms of the teams sales dept. Accentuate the positives, and gloss over the negatives is their real job. Entertain when the game gets negatively out of hand, and gloat when it gets positively out of hand. And if you are a radio guy, mention a sponsor a minimum of three times an inning!

[ShouldaCouldaWoulda]

Just watching th game with my friends, I realize why they don't use advanced stats. However, I never understood why they use a players total stats, as opposed to his platoon stats. Using a players total stats for a guy like Hicks when he's facing either a RHP or LHP misses the point, that he's either very much bellow or above average vs them, and the totals just blur that and miss the story.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Just watching th game with my friends, I realize why they don't use advanced stats. However, I never understood why they use a players total stats, as opposed to his platoon stats. Using a players total stats for a guy like Hicks when he's facing either a RHP or LHP misses the point, that he's either very much bellow or above average vs them, and the totals just blur that and miss the story.

This is a really good point. I've thought a lot about this and how important it is... You don't want to bombard the audience with numbers but in many cases, platoon splits are more useful than the full numbers.

 

Of course, people ALSO want to see the full numbers so I don't know if there's a good answer to this.

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

 

If dazzle took the time to explain siera in the first inning he'd finish 5 runs later in the 4th inning and he'd run out of time to tell us how many coors lights he was planning on drinking on his birthday. So not that different... except i wouldn't be thirsty. ..

you mean "Milk and Cookies" - it's kind of cute that Provus and Gladden have a "secret" language to talk about drinking after the game.

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

I think the Announcers should get a bit of a pass on this, though. Each broadcast has a whole host of people behind the scenes - producers, directors, "The Guys in the Truck," - all of whom are feeding information right into the earpieces of the announcers.  

 

They are reporting what they are seeing on the field and quoting the stats that are being fed in to them. I think the team behind the scenes should push a little harder on getting advanced stats into the conversation.

 

I think Dick/Bert might have a bit of a learning curve to start using those stats in conversation more readily, but they are limited to what is being spoken into their headset and what they've been asked to cover by their bosses.

 

When Attebury and Provus do radio together, you hear a bit more of the advanced stats being discussed, they talk about splits (usually more of the home/road variety than lefty/righty), small sample sizes, etc. Those guys are "capital G" Geeks when they are in the booth together, it makes for a fun broadcast.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I think the Announcers should get a bit of a pass on this, though. Each broadcast has a whole host of people behind the scenes - producers, directors, "The Guys in the Truck," - all of whom are feeding information right into the earpieces of the announcers.  

 

They are reporting what they are seeing on the field and quoting the stats that are being fed in to them. I think the team behind the scenes should push a little harder on getting advanced stats into the conversation.

 

I think Dick/Bert might have a bit of a learning curve to start using those stats in conversation more readily, but they are limited to what is being spoken into their headset and what they've been asked to cover by their bosses.

 

When Attebury and Provus do radio together, you hear a bit more of the advanced stats being discussed, they talk about splits (usually more of the home/road variety than lefty/righty), small sample sizes, etc. Those guys are "capital G" Geeks when they are in the booth together, it makes for a fun broadcast.

People keep using the term "advanced stats" but that's not what most of us are arguing to use...

 

OPS is not an advanced stat. SLG is not an advanced stat. They're such basic stats most front offices no longer use them to evaluate a player. To an extent, the same thing applies to platoon splits. They're not advanced, they're basic stats that are winnowed down to tell a more accurate story.

 

And Errors are just a joke. As are Wins.

 

This argument is less about "advanced stats" than it is "stop using really bad stats".

[Willihammer]

 

When Attebury and Provus do radio together, you hear a bit more of the advanced stats being discussed, they talk about splits (usually more of the home/road variety than lefty/righty), small sample sizes, etc. Those guys are "capital G" Geeks when they are in the booth together, it makes for a fun broadcast.

Fun? There was a recent series (CLE?) where Gladden was out and Attebury subbed. It was higher brow definitely but Gladden's more fun IMO.

 

Personal preference I guess.

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

 

Fun? There was a recent series (CLE?) where Gladden was out and Attebury subbed. It was higher brow definitely but Gladden's more fun IMO.

 

Personal preference I guess.

It's fun when Attebury has a giggle fit - I like Gladden, too, don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want all Attebury all the time. Gladden is fun, no doubt.

[drjim]

Fun? There was a recent series (CLE?) where Gladden was out and Attebury subbed. It was higher brow definitely but Gladden's more fun IMO.

 

Personal preference I guess.

I'm with you. I find Gladden very entertaining to listen to.

 

I guess for the specific game I like old school ball and stories and then figure out anything else I need on my own.

 

I do think overall the Twins have a very strong radio team. TV not as much.

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

 

People keep using the term "advanced stats" but that's not what most of us are arguing to use...

 

OPS is not an advanced stat. SLG is not an advanced stat. They're such basic stats most front offices no longer use them to evaluate a player. To an extent, the same thing applies to platoon splits. They're not advanced, they're basic stats that are winnowed down to tell a more accurate story.

 

And Errors are just a joke. As are Wins.

 

This argument is less about "advanced stats" than it is "stop using really bad stats".

Yes, I agree-  I would suggest muting the T.V. and listening on the radio - between Provus, Attebury and Kyle Hammer, they rarely talk about the pitcher win, batting average, or errors without putting those terms in context.  Gladden has warmed up over time to using more than the basic stats, but I think a lot of former players don't go much into the statistics beyond what is on the scoreboard (usually just Avg. HR, RBI or W-L, ERA, Strikeouts).

 

There was a pretty long exchange last week between Gladden and Provus about the quality start. Provus was saying the QS is pretty worthless on an individual level, but might have some value over the course of the season if you track the entire starting staffs number of quality starts vs. games started. I think Gladden made a good point that it might not matter to the outcome of the game or to the team's overall success, but the player's agent sure cares about that stat.

 

Probably wouldn't hear Bert having that discussion with Bremer unless it was in the spirit of keeping the ball on a downward plane and pitchers being the best athletes on the field.

 

 

[USAFChief]

 

 

 

And Errors are just a joke. As are Wins.

 

This argument is less about "advanced stats" than it is "stop using really bad stats".

While I agree a better, more complete story can be told, that doesn't mean you have to avoid W's and/or errors.

 

Neither tell the whole story, but neither are inherently "bad," and can be a part of the story.

 

And I absolutely want to know a hitter's BA.  BA/OBP/SLG tells me more than OPS.  That'd be a good start to improving the quick "hitting line" given for a player.  Hits are more valuable than walks, so I like to know if that .350 OBP includes a .250 BA or a .310 BA. 

 

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

While I agree a better, more complete story can be told, that doesn't mean you have to avoid W's and/or errors.

 

Neither tell the whole story, but neither are inherently "bad," and can be a part of the story.

 

And I absolutely want to know a hitter's BA.  BA/OBP/SLG tells me more than OPS.  That'd be a good start to improving the quick "hitting line" given for a player.  Hits are more valuable than walks, so I like to know if that .350 OBP includes a .250 BA or a .310 BA. 

Good points. In no way am I suggesting BA should be eliminated; it's a valuable statistic. It's merely incomplete and when displayed alongside OBP/SLG, it tells a pretty solid story about a player.

[sane]

 

BTW, I love the use of the word "geek" in this thread. It's quite telling about the age and mentality of the poster who uses it.

 

Guess what hasn't been an insult since the year 2000? The word "geek".

"Geek" is still an insult ONLY if the reader is insulted by its use. In my post, it was mean as a term to describe baseball audience members who would actually appreciate the discussion of less traditional baseball metrics. If you are insulted by that, it is your decision. If you are NOT insulted by that, than that is also your decision.

 

[sane]

"meant", not "mean"

"then" not "than"

Self-editing was AWOL.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Not listening to the announcers, but I notice the Rays TV broadcast displays OBP along with the triple crown stats.