Article: One Man's Opinion: Tovar Snubbed Again

[Halsey Hall]

I totally agree with Gladden.  A couple years back they had voting on the Twins site and Gladden was leading.  I told Dave St Peter there's no way he should be in.  Thankfully they don't have to go by the vote totals. 

 

I enjoyed watching Tovar play, and wouldn't mind him getting in.  He was the spark of the team back in the day. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

Totally agree that Shane Mack is/was underrated, but the problem with him in this context is career length.    5 years, even very good years, doesn't quite cut it.  Larry Hisle had five very good years for the Twins.  Roy Smalley probably had a similar Twins peak.  Koskie would safely be in this group too.  Wynegar and Castino might be on this bubble.  Tapani?  Erickson?  Tovar has a few more seasons than most of these guys but still might be considered a bit on the short career side.

 

Of course, the bar for the Twins hall of fame looks fairly low.  Career length and value wise, Earl Battey is probably no better than Tovar.  Gagne and Gaetti too.  Zoilo Versalles got there on one season, basically.  Guardado certainly didn't raise the bar.

 

Given that, and since the numbers aren't retired or anything, I'd rather go ahead and put these shorter career guys in, rather than having a multi-season drought with no players inducted (or start treading into even more borderline players like Jacque Jones).

 

Dan Gladden would still probably be a very poor choice.  His case (5 playing seasons, 2 titles, post-retirement career around the club) isn't all that different than Al Newman.

[stringer bell]

Mauer still has four years left on his contract, correct?

[jimmer]

Mauer still has four years left on his contract, correct?

I must have misunderstood the criteria. Morny, Cuddy and Mr Hunter are all still playing, one of them with the team.  Good to know Mauer might make the Twins HOF cut :-) 

Edited January 26, 2015 by jimmer

[stringer bell]

Battey had one good season in Washington plus his seven seasons in Minnesota. For a catcher, that is pretty good longevity. He was a four-time All-Star. In my book, he deserved the Twins Hall of Fame honor.

[stringer bell]

I must have misunderstood the criteria. Morny, Cuddy and Mr Hunter are all still playing, one of them with the team.  Good to know Mauer might make the Twins HOF cut :-)

 

I don't expect any I named to be playing beyond 2016.

[jimmer]

I don't expect any I named to be playing beyond 2016.

They have to bring Cuddy and Morny back in 2017.:-)

[Otto von Ballpark]

Battey had one good season in Washington plus his seven seasons in Minnesota. For a catcher, that is pretty good longevity. He was a four-time All-Star. In my book, he deserved the Twins Hall of Fame honor.

I like Battey too.  But Tovar had the same number of seasons in Minnesota and basically never missed a game, which is pretty valuable too.  The two had similarly valuable bats and gloves, and Tovar added base running value on top of it (Tovar beats Battey in WAR).  Tovar even got comparable MVP consideration at the time too.

 

What Tovar is missing is 1965 World Series credit (Tovar was not on the roster, although Battey did not hit well), and all-star appearances and gold gloves, primarily a function of him not having a regular position.  Put Tovar at 2B for his whole career and he probably does better in this regard.

[Dantes929]

Larry Hisle was 40 points below Mack in OPS, did not play as good defense, did not play on a world champion and did not have his best season cut short by strike..   Smalley has a decent resume at shortstop, longevity, all star, world champion.  Castino was my favorite player at the time but falls short in a lot of categories.   I really thought Wynegar had better stats.  Two all star games helps.      Again, Mack was won of the best in the game for 5 years.    I prefer that to decent for 10 years. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

Larry Hisle was 40 points below Mack in OPS, did not play as good defense, did not play on a world champion and did not have his best season cut short by strike..   Smalley has a decent resume at shortstop, longevity, all star, world champion.  Castino was my favorite player at the time but falls short in a lot of categories.   I really thought Wynegar had better stats.  Two all star games helps.      Again, Mack was won of the best in the game for 5 years.    I prefer that to decent for 10 years. 

League offense was lower in Hisle's day -- his OPS+ is virtually equal to Mack's (127 vs 130).  Hisle graded out overall as a league-average defender in his Twins time, and he was pressed into more CF duty than Mack too.  Mack is better, but it's very close by WAR (less than half a win difference per season).

 

But I'm a "big hall" kind of guy, as far as team hall of fames go.  I'd support Tovar, Mack, and possibly Hisle too in an effort to represent all eras -- it would make for a fun day and spark a little Twins history discussion.  I'd probably draw the line before Guardado and Versailles, though (and definitely before Gladden) -- 5 strong seasons (perhaps more for relievers) with the club seems like a good minimum.  Otherwise you may as well induct Jack Morris too.

[stringer bell]

One other thing, Hisle batted in the middle of the lineup, while Mack didn't IIRC, at least when the Twins were relevant.