chpettit19

Well, Roden has better AAA numbers than Jenkins, if that matters. But it isn't even the point. The point is that Roden isn't worthy of real playing time. So, he doesn't get real playing time. Zoll's "corporate speak" was actually explaining why MLB team don't call guys up sometimes. Because you don't want Walker Jenkins getting 27 PAs in 16 games. Or, more recently since Buxton's been back, 6 PAs in 6 games. You want Jenkins getting 27 PAs in 9 games. In the last 6 games you want Walker getting 20+ PAs. Walker Jenkins doesn't fill Roden's (or Martin's when he got hurt) role. He fits Larnach, Buxton, Keaschall, or Bell's.

A 3-time batting champ. It is not comparable in any meaningful way. I understood the point; it's a bad point. Comparing a kid who's never played in the majors to Luis Arraez is ridiculous. And shifting Bryce back to the OF where they already knew he could play because he's played more than 7000 more innings in the OF than at 1B, or moving IFers around (which, by the way, the Twins already did this year, moving Royce to 1B from 3B, like Bohm, is what helped open SS for Culpepper) is very different than putting Keaschall back at the spot they already decided he couldn't play. Zoll, Shelton, et al don't believe Jenkins is likely to provide more impact than Buxton, Keaschall, Bell, and Larnach. That is what Zoll was saying. And it seems pretty obvious that is the thought process.

I think the trading part is important here. I was all for trading Larnach or Bell or Jeffers or any number of players at the deadline. Rumor has it the Twins did nearly trade Larnach. And, while Doug was a wiz with the glove, he had an 83 OPS+ for the Twins that year. That's also quite different than Buxton, Keaschall, Larnach, and Bell this year. And, Morneau had debuted the previous season. It wasn't his first ever exposure to MLB. And he was 23. Was certainly a veteran moving for a young guy, but there were also some pretty real differences.

We all have our days/threads, my friend. No worries here.

Who said it'd be an outlier? That's not the argument I've seen made. The statement is simply that he's still very young and that's a piece of the equation. He is still very much "super-young" in a baseball sense. That's the point you actually prove. There's 8 of those guys BELOW AAA. And only 4 in the majors. He is very much young. His age shouldn't be a stand alone reason to not call him up, but it doesn't mean he isn't young and it shouldn't be part of the equation when making these decisions.

I'm sorry, Mike. Nothing but respect, and we often see things very similarly, but "So he doesn't come up next year either, if they keep Larnach? Because there's no opportunity?" "They had an injury.... And called up a third catcher. " "Why aren't the twins as good as Milwaukee, people ask..... Well, they play rookies a lot. Cleveland has something like a dozen young players? The Twins? Old." "So, never call him up realistically?" "I'll ask you the same, if you believe these are the four best hitters, why aren't you bringing them all back next year? And if you do...." "Are you actually arguing the Twins haven't preferred veterans over rookies the last decade plus?" You have very much been framing this as bigger than just "he's not up now and I get it." You've been spinning the "this clearly means they won't call him up next year either" thread since your very first post on this thread.

No. If they bring those guys back, Jenkins is very unlikely to be on the opening day roster. But he'll get plenty of opportunity if he's healthy. Because other guys won't be. I'm arguing people care too much about the opening day roster. And, like Lewis, Wallner, Julien, Arraez, etc. once Jenkins gets here, if he performs, he'll steal a job. But, mainly, I'm arguing it has nothing at all to do with this discussion right now. You're trying to make it sound like since they haven't called him up now, they'll never call him up. You're trying to box people into a corner about him not being on the opening day roster next year being some confirmation that they're doing something crazy. And I'm refusing to go into that box because it ignores so many other things.

That is certainly a possibility if he's healthy and performing. But would you be upset then? Is that the wrong move to callup the other top-50ish prospect in your AAA outfield who's out of options and already on the 40-man?

Why not?

I'm not sure what this is supposed to establish. Jenkins isn't the only 21 or younger player? How many 21 or younger players are in the majors? 21 is still "super-young" for the majors. And it's quite the trick to say "older than Jenkins" and then list 3 guys just months older than him. 2 months is really some meaningful data point for proving he isn't young? How many of the guys drafted before him have been injured as often as him? 3 of those guys were college superstars multiple years older than him. What do they have to do with whether or not Jenkins is still young for the majors?

Again, because Bell will be older and Larnach will be more expensive. And there will be other signings and trades and roster moves. That doesn't mean they won't bring them back, but it's reasons why that question has nothing to do with the situation right now. These 2 things are not tied together. And why shouldn't they if they do? You know I wanted them to complete the rebuild and go young this year. But they didn't. And Bell and Larnach have performed. Jenkins is not guaranteed to be a success. Ever. And injuries will happen next year. Just like they happen every year. Way too much emphasis on the opening day roster or him being called up now. Not calling him up now when there's no everyday job available isn't some sign that they'll never call him up or they're afraid of rookies or whatever claim people want to attach to it. They just called Culpepper up for goodness sake. But that was to replace Kreidler. A guy who is clearly not a guy who should be playing more than sparingly in a utility defensive specialist role. It's not Buxton, Keaschall, Larnach, or Bell. 4 guys who've very clearly established that they are every day, or strong side platoon, players. No team moves aside legitimate vets for rookies in a playoff race. And the discussion about bringing them back next year is so much bigger than this conversation about calling him up now.

And I think that "big difference" is what matters. You named an obvious star in Ramirez, who's actually having a very disappointing year while missing time with injuries, a rookie 2B who's been an average hitter, and a SS who's been less below average than usual this year, but still below average. So, no, I don't think the Guardians are doing what I asked about. They aren't benching DeLauter to play Genao. They aren't benching Kwan after he finally got going this year. They aren't moving guys from the IF to the OF so Genao can play IF. Ramirez is a close comp to Buxton in terms of the injury and getting a "half day off" by DHing, but Buxton has significantly outperformed Ramirez this year when they've played. Those other guys you mentioned aren't the level of hitters Keaschall, Larnach, and Bell are.

We've been through this before, I'm not putting Keaschall at 2B for another game in his life. And I'm not benching Larnach twice a week for Jenkins. The guys in the clubhouse definitely know who's got them there and that absolutely has a very real chance of disrupting the team. Jenkins better perform or you're going to have some very cranky vets. But I ask again, can you name another team that has called up a Jenkins type prospect and moved a guy back to a position they already decided he couldn't field and benched one of their 4 or 5 best hitters multiple times a week to get that guy in? Your suggestion is not as mainstream as you seem to be suggesting it is. I want to see Jenkins, too. I have no idea if he'll perform from the jump or not. I'm not forcing Keaschall back to the dirt and benching Larnach multiple times a week in the heat of a playoff chase to find out if he's going to be like most rookies (even the elite prospects) and struggle some out of the gate, or if he'll be an outlier and outperform nearly my entire roster.

I don't follow the logic. Are you suggesting that these haven't been 4 of the Twins best hitters in 2026? And if you are, then I don't think there's common ground to be had. If you aren't, then I'm confused on why you're so amped to bench any of them for any meaningful number of games while the team is in the last wild card spot. What I would do and what is reasonable for the Twins to do are different things. And the idea that there should be no expected decline for a 34-year-old bell is nothing but a strawman. Or that Larnach's arb jump has no impact on decisions. I'm pretty sure we're on the same page that Keaschall and Buxton have everyday roles in 2027. The hypothetical question has no impact on the current playoff race they're in. You know I'd have made many different decisions between last deadline and today. But the situation today is what it is. The "bring them back next year" question isn't some deep, insightful idea. It's just a strawman that ignores the reality of the differences in situations.

Someone with Jenkins "hoped for" talent. Or at least hoped for results. What if he comes up and goes 3 for his first 30? Send him back down, apologize to Larnach, Bell, Buxton, and Keaschall for benching them multiple times because this kid was obviously going to be better than them? How many other 21-year-old Jenkins types can you name where other teams have sacrificed ABs for guys like Buxton, Bell, Larnach, and Keaschall? Especially while being half a game up in the wild card race. The Yankees didn't start sitting Jazz Chisholm once a week to get Lombard ABs. They didn't put Ben Rice behind the plate to get Lombard ABs. They didn't move McMahon (who's a worse hitter than anyone the Twins would move/bench) to get him ABs. They didn't move anyone around. They sat Jose Caballero and have been running essentially a 9-man lineup every day. The Tigers didn't bench Carpenter, Greene, or even Vierling, Perez, Meadows, or Outman types for Clark. They all got hurt. Max Clark is playing over guys named Julks and Malgeri. The idea of sitting 4 of your best hitters on a regular basis to get a rookie into the lineup in a playoff chase is actually rather bold. It's not a regular occurrence.

The Caratini at 1B complaint is valid. But are we really comparing a kid with a grand total of 0 MLB pitches seen to a 3-time batting champ and established offensive star?

I will never understand the argument of "0 games of Buxton is better than 100 games of Buxton." Yeah, it sucks he hasn't been able to stay healthy. The team YEARS ago needed to start doing a significantly better job of having another starting quality CFer on the roster. They did it here and there, but not consistently enough. But having an all star for 100 games is better than not having that all star. The Twins will not be better in 2027 with "a whole new outfield."

That's a totally different answer than your original "do him a favor" statement. Buxton has said over and over and over that he doesn't want to be traded. Trading him wouldn't be "doing him a favor," it'd be making the business decision you find best for your business. I'd argue that trading him is no longer the best business decision, but that's neither here nor there. Your original comment was that they should do Buxton a favor. Trading somebody who doesn't want to be traded is not doing them a favor. And as has been pointed out, they can't trade him without his OK, anyways. They haven't been able to since he signed his extension.

I knew you'd at least appreciate that.

DH- Bell 36 of 36 C- Jeffers 29 of 36 1B- Lewis 36 of 36 2B- Clemens every game against righties, Kreidler against lefties 3B- Lee 36 of 36 SS- Culpepper 36 of 36 (only guy who's at real risk of losing his spot for a cold streak that is shorter than about 0-30) LF- Larnach 36 of 36 unless Martin comes back to platoon again CF- Buxton 36 of 36 RF- Keaschall 36 of 36 That'd be my plan as of today. There'd be 0 "planned rest" days (outside of Jeffers), there'd be 0 "keep player X fresh" days, there'd be 0 "see if he gets hot" days. Jackson would catch any of the 7 non-Jeffers games that come against teams that run to take advantage of his arm while Caratini would get the others. I'll take the real defensive boost of Kreidler over Clemens against lefties. Unless one of those guys comes in and says "not feeling well today, skip, better put somebody else out there," I'm going with that lineup from now until somebody gets hurt. These 9 non-Culpepper guys have gotten us here and they're either getting us to the playoffs or they're not. There's a 0% chance Shelton does this, but it's what my plan would be.

Oh, nothing but respect for you. One of my favorite posters and I know we see generally eye to eye on many things. I enjoy disagreeing with you on something because I know it's coming from a thoughtful place with real reasoning behind it. But I don't think asking about how you know a hot or cold streak is starting or ending is being extreme. It's the real-life decision that you're talking about. If you're going to sit Larnach because he's "cooled down" then you have to know when that moment is. You have to know when he's passed a threshold into "cooled down." What constitutes cooling down and sitting your significantly above average hitter on any regular basis? So, I don't know if 4 hits in 3 games means he's out of it to you. That's an important and real question. If he should sit in order to see if Roden, or whoever, can get hot, you need to know what being cold and hot are. It doesn't have to be exact numbers over an exact amount of time (that part I guess is a little extreme to ask), but you have to be able to define it in some way, shape, or form. Otherwise, what are you making decisions on? The "cooled down" argument is a different argument than your "stay ready" argument. Roden, or whoever, getting regular ABs in case Larnach, or whoever, gets hurt is a very different thing than playing the hot hand or giving everybody a chance to get hot. Larnach's been hot for the season. If you're going to sit him because he isn't hot, you need to know what constitutes that. If you're going to get back to playing him every day like I think you'd agree a guy with his performance over that amount of time has earned, then you need to know what constitutes Roden not getting hot and/or Larnach heating up. Totally fine if you aren't settled on things. But I am. And I think the numbers Larnach, Buxton, and Keaschall are more than enough to be settled. At least settled enough that in a playoff chase I'm not going to say "well, maybe Roden or a rookie can put up numbers 20+% above average, let's throw them in there just in case instead of the guys who are already doing it."

I don't get how Buxton, Larnach, Keaschall, and Bell haven't clearly separated themselves as the best players and worthy of everyday play. That's what this thread is about. A catcher coming up for an injured OF instead of Jenkins or Emma. The point about Roden wasn't that he's clearly worse than those other non-Buxton, Larnach, Keaschall, or Bell options, it's that I don't care if he's been on ice because there are going to be multiple other options that haven't been on ice and they're all in the same "unproven, hope they're good" box. I don't care about giving ABs to Roden now to see if he may be good if they're forced to play him later. If he's forced on the field for injury reasons later, he's going to have to figure it out. Hope he's been taking lots of BP. The Twins have their 3 OFers and DH. If a 121 OPS+ over 371 PAs doesn't earn you the status of being an everyday player, then there's no such thing. Lewis and Keaschall didn't require sitting your best player, a guy with a 121 OPS+ in 371 PAs, or a guy with an .819 OPS since May first. And definitely didn't require sitting those guys while .5 games back in the wild card race with 36 games to go. The Twins 4 best hitters with at least 300 PAs this year are Byron Buxton, Trevor Larnach, Luke Keaschall, and Josh Bell. The only guy who jumps in there if we lower the PA threshold is Jeffers. I think we are miles off if your suggestion is sitting any of them during the final push for a playoff spot in order to see what Roden has and/or so he isn't cold in case one of them gets hurt later. If it was April, I'm all for it. But it's not. There's not 136 games left, there's 36. Yes, an injury likely will happen, but it may not be an OFer or DH. And then you've just lessened your lineup numerous times while chasing a playoff spot for no reason at all. Larnach has 4 hits in his last 3 games. Is his cold streak over? How much opportunity does Roden get to "get hot" at the expense of one of your 4 best non-catcher hitters? How do we know if he's hot? Does he have to play multiple games in a row or is it 3 random games a week or what? I think "get hot" is a lot easier of a concept on paper than in the real world. Especially with 36 games left.

Sorry, at this point of the season (very important in this discussion) I just don't believe in forcing lesser players into the lineup just to keep them fresh in case somebody else gets hurt. Over the course of 162? Yes, you need to consider those kinds of things. But the marathon is coming to an end. If you're trying to win the race you just put your head down and go. If you pull a hammy 10 feet from the finish line, so be it. You're fighting half a dozen teams for 1 spot. If Larnach blows a tire on September 20th, so be it. Roden, or Jenkins, or whoever needs to perform. Or somebody needs to step up and perform better to make up for the rust on Roden. I'm not going to play lesser players now just in case I'm forced to play them in the future. You may not be 1 game out as you head into San Francisco because you're forcing lesser players into the lineup now just in case you are forced to play them then. If Buxton is hurt then he should be on the IL. But he's played CF every game since he's been off the IL, so he can't be that hurt. Nobody is 100% at this point of the season. If he's not hurt, then you put your best player on the field every day while you're trying to make the playoffs. What determines a "hot hand?" What's the sample size? 1 game? 5 games? 20 games? A week? 2 weeks? A month? That's much easier said than done. Especially when there's 36 games left in the season. Trying to guess the hot streaks for the last 36 games is a losing proposition. If Larnach slumps the rest of the year, so be it. He got you here. The odds of him going on a hot streak are significantly higher than Roden going on one. Jenkins or Emma not being called up instead of Jackson is what got this thread going. Jenkins isn't "on ice" in St Paul. Neither is Emma. I'd guess there aren't a whole lot of people who think Roden is a better baseball player, and preferred injury replacement for an everyday OF/DH, than Jenkins right now. The shocking move would be if an everyday OF/DH goes on the IL and Jenkins isn't the call then. I have absolutely no fear of Roden being on ice because the odds of him being their only option between now and San Francisco are miniscule. Jenkins, Emma, Wallner, Martin coming back, Gonzalez, Mendez, Kreidler to 2B and Clemens to the OF with Gray being the callup. Lots of options beyond just Roden. And most of those other options are going to be playing between now and September 20. But, to me, it's August 18th, not April 18th. They're .5 games out of the wild card because nobody will just put the rest of the bad teams to bed and take that last spot. There are 7 teams fighting for that last spot. I'm not putting a lesser player on the field just so they can stay only 20% worse instead of being 30% worse. Here's my best 9 every day. The only consideration I have from now until the playoff field is decided is who my best 9 guys are on any given day. And right now, Larnach, Buxton, Keaschall across the outfield and Bell at DH have earned the very clear distinction of being their best guys.

You don't think the OF/DH spots have had their guys identified? Larnach and his 121 OPS+ hasn't claimed a spot? Buxton is the best player on the team, I assume we're all on board that he has CF when he's healthy. You don't think Keaschall and his .819 OPS since May 1 has claimed a spot? I guess you could argue Bell at DH, but he has a .982 OPS in August. If those guys haven't claimed spots, I don't know that it's possible to claim spots. Culpepper could've provided a "spark." I'm all for trying young guys and seeing what they can do earlier in the season. But the Twins have decided they're going to try to back into the playoffs with a sub-.500 record. Larnach, Buxton, Keaschall, and Bell aren't getting benched with the hope of Jenkins or Emma being immediate successes. And they shouldn't be. Those 4 guys have claimed everyday roles. Either that, or you don't believe in the ability to claim an everyday role. Which is fine, but completely different than not having identified the OF and DH guys on this team.

Isn't your entire complaint that they don't use all their roster spots? That they're "wasting" roster spots by having guys they don't play? I don't follow the logic of then arguing that they're going to play everyone. They've been playing 11.5 guys for most of the recent games. Martin was platooning with Larnach, Caratini is getting 1B (no idea why) and C time, and Kreidler has turned into a utility guy. Roden hasn't been playing much, and as you've been raging against for weeks, Jackson essentially never plays. And you've also been raging about the idea of Roden ever playing for weeks. They haven't been playing. When it comes to the spots that affect Jenkins, the Twins have been playing 5 guys. It's been the LF platoon, Buxton in CF, Keaschall in RF, and Bell at DH. Larnach has a 121 OPS+. I'm sorry, but I'm not sitting him for a rookie who's never seen an MLB pitch.