chpettit19

He pitched to 3 guys that inning. Threw 10 pitches. The decision was made before the inning that Berrios was going to win that game or lose that game. And I think he's earned that right. Especially in a lost season.

I'm using "fans" to avoid directing comments at specific individuals. Obviously not every fan has the same opinion. I am specifically calling out fans on this site who have made both of the arguments I have stated and are basically just on here every day complaining about whatever they find to complain about even if it directly contradicts what they were complaining about the day, week, or month before.

Of course he needs to be good at making those decisions. My point is that fans have gone from saying he has no feel for the game because he doesn't leave his pitchers in long enough to saying he has no feel for the game because he's leaving his pitchers in. It's simply complaining to complain. I know people have a need to vent, and it's hard to not complain during a season like this, but going from "he needs to keep pitchers in when they're going well" to "he needs to pull his pitcher sooner and take away the risk of him blowing up" gets pretty frustrating. Rocco has made plenty of decisions I don't understand and have questioned in the moment, but last night wasn't one of them. So if people want to question his "feel for the game" at least be consistent with it. I may have worded it wrong in my other post, but that's my point. He gets paid handsomely to make decisions and those of us who pay to view the product have every right to question those decisions. But it gets pretty annoying when the argument is "do what I want you to do until it goes poorly then you should've known better and just done what you used to do."

"Rocco is the worst! Always pulls Berrios and the rest of the starters way too early to put in this garbage bullpen!" Rocco leaves starter in for the 7th. Starter loses game. "Rocco is the worst! Why doesn't he pull his starter and put in the pen guys?!" Just one of those seasons. I'm not a huge Rocco fan by any means, but this damned if he does damned if he doesn't stuff is getting ridiculous. Tough loss. I know it comes in the middle of a brutal season, but you can't have it both ways. Either you want the starters to have the chance to work through things when they're going well in a game (Berrios had given up 2 hits through 6! and didn't hit 100 pitches for the game) or you want them pulled at the first sign of trouble like Rocco used to do. And don't give me the "he needs a better feel for the game" garbage right now either. Things didn't go well in the 7th, but this is what people have been begging for all year. He's letting his starters go when they're doing well. Pretty disingenuous to spin it and then yell at him for doing exactly what you've asked for. Rocco said "this is your game Jose, go win it" and Jose didn't get the job done. It happens.

Are you suggesting Tom Kelly was setting prospect development plans for the Twins? Cuz I think you're wrong. Did he coach prospects at spring training? Absolutely. Was it his job to ensure prospects showed up to the majors knowing how to play the wall (that was the suggestion I was replying to)? Absolutely not.

Agreed. His BB% would likely go up as he advances and hitters have control of the zone while his K% will go down as they are better at hitting the balls in the zone they're sitting on. Lack of command is the reason tons and tons of guys wash out every year despite throwing incredibly hard with filthy off speed pitches. They can dominate the lower levels where hitters are young and inexperienced, but they get to the advanced hitters and suddenly stuff isn't enough and you have to be able to throw strikes much more (and better strikes).

Oh, I wasn't advocating for bringing Simmons back necessarily, I was just responding to the idea that they shouldn't trade Simmons. The other poster sees Simmons as an answer for next year so doesn't want him traded (prefers they extend him) and I was just saying they could both trade him and have him for next year. As far as aiming higher in the FA class, that's the route I would like them to take, but with some caveats. I'd love Story, Seager, or Correa, but the financial resources likely needed to bring them in hamper the ability to upgrade areas I see as more of a need. I think a Baez signing could be a nice middle ground. Upgrade on Simmons, but not as expensive as the the tippy top of the SS class. The Twins need to devote more resources to pitching than position players this offseason I think. And obviously many other variables that go into this (extend Berrios, Buxton, Rogers? Trade one of more of them?). But my post wasn't me advocating for Simmons being the SS next year as much as it was saying him being here next year shouldn't stop them from trading him this year.

Not sure why that would be Rocco's job. I can't imagine any MLB managers have a great deal of say in the development practices of their organization. Generally speaking managers who are hired are people the front office and owner feel match their approaches to the game. You don't hire an MLB manager and ask them to setup development plans for minor leaguers. They quite literally have other employees who's entire job is to create, and ensure execution of, those plans. And Rocco's job during a game is to be ready for numerous possibilities at all times. He should be staring at his binder (one that literally every major league manager has, by the way) far more often than stepping in on conversations between players in the dugout. The only reason anyone is talking about this at all is because of the on the field portion. If Donaldson and Arraez don't have a back and forth on the field nobody even mentions the conversation they had in the dugout. That happens at least 100 times a season. No manager should be worrying themselves with intervening on every disagreement in the dugout. Coaches and teammates need to handle that.

Why not trade Simmons in the next couple weeks and then just sign him again during the offseason? I can't imagine they're extending him before the end of the season and I can't imagine the team that deals for him is locking him up either. Beyond Buxton and Berrios I can't imagine there's any player on this roster the Twins would look to extend before the end of the year. So why not trade anyone on an expiring deal and attempt to resign them if they really want them back here?

I think the characterizations of Arraez as "lollygagging" or just looking out to CF aren't totally accurate. Arraez looks to be checking the positioning of the outfielders. That's part of the game and something he should certainly do before each pitch to help him get the best jump he can on a ball in play. He was clearly late turning around, though. And I don't blame Donaldson for calling time there, or being upset, as he clearly sees Arraez turned around and his mind is there and not focusing on the pitch that would've been coming. I think it's a 1 off situation of Arraez being delayed (he would've been at the same lead distance on the pitch as he hurried his hop out once he saw the pitcher ready to throw), but not a big deal. This disaster of a season could certainly be leading to some escalated emotions (Arraez and Donaldson both seem to be very passionate players) which causes a situation like this to be bigger than needed. Especially in an embarrassing series like the one in Detroit. As for Rocco's role in it, I think it's much ado about nothing that he wasn't involved in the dugout. Nobody was throwing fists and they didn't even seem to be yelling all that loudly or anything. It's not like they had to be separated or anything. Seems reasonable enough to let it play out and have Rocco concentrate on the game itself. If it's a big enough deal he can sit down with them in his office after the game and figure things out. This feels like lost season drama caused by raised emotions from 2 competitors.

I think this is a situation of both sides being right. They haven't developed a difference making pitcher yet (for the record Dobnak has been basically a league average pitcher they signed and developed). But they have a quite enviable stable of prospects on the cusp of the bigs, with a few of the low end prospects having debuted or set to debut tomorrow. And they've only been here 4 years. Year 1 is a lot of assessing and planning. Years 2 and 3 were about accumulating talent and beginning their march to the bigs. Year 4 had the minor league world go dark. Not a total excuse for things, but certainly isn't nothing. And now Year 5 is starting to see guys arrive. That's a pretty reasonable timeline I'd think. But the question of whether or not the guys arriving will succeed is still legit. So they've developed a more than solid MiLB prospects, but all they are are prospects until they prove themselves in the bigs. I think the next year will be the deciding time.

Obviously a lot of factors at play over the next couple weeks as they make trade decisions. I think at the core it comes down to 2 things. How good you think you can reasonably be next year and what are the chances any of your "big 3" sign extensions before they hit the market. Can you compete for the division next year? Compete for the WS? Looking at 81-81? Worse? Close on previous extension talks or 10s of millions away in every negotiation? I'd expect the FO to have a number of different possible "routes" to take laid out. Different payroll options from the low to the high end of what ownership will realistically be willing to do next year and what possible FAs they could get at the different levels. With contingency ideas for missing out on their top 5 targets at each position they'd be going after. Then see what people are willing to give up for Berrios, Buxton, Rogers. How does that change each of your 2022 "routes?" If you can get a near MLB ready arm plus a flier or 2 for Berrios and you know he's not signing an extension before he hits the market how does that make your plans look? I don't see a real way for them to compete for a WS next year. I just don't see how they can bring in the arms needed to do it. Their hope for that relies almost entirely on the development of the arms in the system. I don't know near enough about those arms to have confidence on what any of them will look like in the majors for their careers, but I don't think it'd be reasonable for the Twins to think they can fill more than 1 rotation spot with an internal young arm for next year on a WS team. It's just too big of an ask with what we know right now. I also don't know how the extension talks with Berrios have gone. If I don't feel at least 80% confident I can sign him before the end of next year I'm seeing what he's worth. If I get a near MLB ready arm (Pearson and Woods Richardson have been names I've seen on multiple national outlets) I'd be very tempted to make that move. Certainly try to get more on top of them, but I'll take a current big name prospect over a comp pick 100 out of 100 times if I don't see a realistic way I can compete in the walk year of a Berrios type player.

I think the reason people question the idea of not trading Cruz is that he's on a 1 year deal. They can't trade him during the offseason cuz he's a free agent then and likely has far more suitors as many expect the DH to be implemented in the NL next year. We say there's no reason not to trade Cruz because the team isn't competing this year and if you can get anything at all for him you're better off. Nothing says they can't trade him in the next couple weeks and re-sign him this offseason. I don't think they would as they have far bigger needs (pitching), but he'll be a free agent and can sign with them if that's what he wants to do. It's also nice to send him to a contender late in his career and give him a shot at a ring this year.

Pearson or Woods Richardson plus a 7-12 ranked prospect and a couple fliers sounds like a deal Toronto may be willing to make and something the Twins could be interested in. Once players start doing well at AA and especially once they hit AAA and get tastes of the bigs, like the top Toronto arms, it gets really hard to pry them away from teams. Even for established big leaguers like Berrios and Rogers. Not saying the Twins shouldn't, or won't, set a sky-high asking price and need to be blown away to trade a Berrios, Buxton, or Rogers, but I would be absolutely shocked if they could get anything like Pearson AND Woods Richardson, or Dustin May, or Ryan Weathers+. Those years of control matter even for the big spenders. Not even the Dodgers or Yankees can afford to pay a whole team of 20m+/year guys. They need cheap talent, too, and build through promotion just like everyone else.

Where are those projected deals coming from? I can't imagine the Dodgers would trade May straight up for Berrios, let alone throw in 2 other good pieces. Weathers and Hassell (I assume that's the CFer you're talking about) seems a little more realistic, but still don't think they'd do more than Weathers and a low level flier, maybe. May and Weathers are already in the bigs doing well. May has performed better than Berrios the last 3 years, but has had injury problems and doesn't have the innings to really stake a claim to being a top arm in the game, but I can't imagine any reason the Dodgers would want to trade 4 years of May for 1.5 of Berrios.

Strikeouts have been pretty outrageous for sure. But he's also above average in BB% (59th percentile). And way above average in Barrel % (82nd percentile). Hard hit % is 55th percentile. Avg Exit Velo is 62%. The 2nd percentile K% is brutal, but he's certainly doing quite a bit to counterbalance that (113 OPS+ and 111 wRC+ would say he's been above average even with the brutal K numbers). If your standard for excitement for a rookie is immediate superstar I feel like you're going to live an awfully depressing life as a baseball fan. And for the record Justin Morneau was not good as a rookie. Larnach is outperforming him in every way beyond K% in only a 14 game difference in sample size. So that's a weird comp to make.

He very well may be breaking out. He made some changes to his swing before the year so it's possible he's unlocked something. Chances are just higher that Larnach has a future with the Twins than Refsnyder does so Larnach would be the one I base my decisions on before Refsnyder. It sure would be nice if Refsnyder is a useful piece for next year, too, though! Certainly not suggesting we give up on him or Garlick, just wouldn't be priorities in my decision making. The more guys we can get established the better as far as I'm concerned!

Totally with you on shattering confidence and all that. I've been on here many times pushing back on the idea the Twins, or any team, should just call a prospect up "to see what they have." That's not how prospects should be managed. I'd hope the Twins know Larnach well enough to know how he will/can handle the current struggles. He'd certainly see better controlled breaking stuff in AAA than he did in AA, but the AAA guys still don't control it like the guys in MLB and I don't know that seeing 5 well placed breaking balls a week in AAA is as useful as seeing 25 a week in the majors (numbers obviously completely made up with no reason for those specific numbers). I see big league success as a hitter as being able to adjust to what major league pitchers can do to you to get you out. Sure, he can go to the minors and work on closing holes in his swing in the cage, but if the pitchers can't consistently hit their spots (why most of them are in AAA and not the majors) then the in game reps aren't helping fix the struggle. I just see him as to the point in his career where the real test is being able to adjust to major league pitching and he has to face major league pitching to do that. Don't think it's a tragedy if they send him down, but my read (with far less info or baseball knowledge than the Twins have) is that facing ML pitching is what he needs. As for Refsnyder and Garlick, I think they're useful players, but they'd play no part in my decision making on Larnach. My Larnach decision would be based on what's best for him and those 2 would fight over whatever spots are left on the roster. With the season being lost I'm more concerned about getting the young guys who will be part of the core moving forward ready for the future. Not saying either of the 30ish year olds can't be on the team next year, but I view them as complimentary players. If one hits and forces their way into the lineup next year, great, but my plan can't be based around the hope that one of them turns into Joey Bats and starts mashing at 29 or 30. Odds just aren't far enough in their favor for that.

Agreed. I should've just said "other OFers come back" cuz it's more than just Cave, but he's the left handed bat that the FO or Rocco or whoever seems to really believe in. I don't know a single fan who would be sad to see him go, but teams have done crazier things than keep a guy like Cave in the majors and sending a rookie back to AAA. I just don't think Larnach has anything left to work on in AAA. I think his struggles need to be with the Twins and this is the pitching he needs to adjust to so really just saying I hope he stays in an everyday role at the ML level for the rest of 2021 no matter what results he may have (I tend to think he'll continue to have his ups and downs, but hopefully more ups than downs).

I think cherry picking 3 guys struggling while ignoring the rookies having great years (I know they were 3 big time prospects, although Pache is a glove first CFer and not expected to hit like AK) isn't what I've grown to expect from this site, but I'm happy to see the Twins duo succeeding. I'd like to know what is behind the decision to put Larnach in the 3 hole (he was hitting much better before a recent ice cold streak, granted) instead of Kirilloff. Kirilloff just appears to have the better ability to put the ball in play when needed to drive in the run at this point in their careers. Larnach is the better slugger right now I think, but wouldn't say he's the better overall hitter. Will be interesting to see if Rocco flips them and starts hitting AK in the 3 spot with Larnach in the 5 (or 7 if Kepler keeps mashing out of the break). Either way it's quite encouraging to see them both have early success. Larnach is at his first "adjust to the adjustments" point and it'll be really fun watching him try to make those adjustments in the second half. I hope the Twins aren't tempted to send him down when Cave comes back. Letting Larnach work through his struggles at the MLB level seems like the best outcome from this lost season. His career will be determined by how well he adjusts to the adjustments and getting that started now is a great opportunity for him.

That in reality is what happens to most players drafted. There, fixed it for you. Alex Kirilloff was drafted out of high school. So was Jose Berrios. So was Ben Rortvedt (from a WI high school even!). And Nick Gordon. Don't forget Byron Buxton. Kepler signed at 16 (not even out of high school yet!). Sano was also 16*. Arraez also signed as a high school aged kid. I feel like there was some kid out of the same area of New Jersey who got picked 26th overall by the Angels a few years back who came straight out of high school. What was his name again? Oh, Mike Trout. Seemed to work out for him. Yes, the vast majority of players drafted never make it to the bigs. That's the nature of the beast. I mean there are typically 40 rounds in the draft each year. There are top 10 picks who never reach the majors. Of course it is less and less likely they reach the majors as the draft slot gets higher and higher. Don't get the need/desire/whatever to point out that chances are these kids won't become stars, or even make the majors. That's true of most players. The Twins didn't go crazy and pick you and me last night. These are legit prospects with every chance in the world to make their dreams come true and both appear to be hard workers who are going to give it everything they have. Levi Michael was a college shortstop picked higher than Miller was (Michael went 30th) and he never made the majors. It's incredibly hard to make the major leagues. Why not just enjoy the hope for the future with these 2 kids?

https://www.mlb.com/twins/news/twins-2021-mlb-draft-preview Interesting read from today.

Think it depends on what you consider a "trading frenzy." I don't see any reason to hold onto any veterans on expiring deals. Even if all you get is some low level prospect with almost no chance of making it to the bigs that's still more than nothing when they leave at the end of the season. If they really want Cruz back next year and he really wants to be here they can still sign him again after the year. He'd actually probably appreciate a trade to a contender so he can get a shot at a ring. Same with Simmons, Happ, Pineda.

In 2018 (after the trade) Escobar had a 102 OPS+ with Arizona. He has since gone 110, 62, 106. He's been basically a league average hitter since the trade. He had a 117 wRC+ in 2018. Then 108, 56, 105. "Extremely well" is not how I'd describe his performance since that trade. Extremely average is how I'd describe it. If you can turn a league average player on an expiring deal into a top 100 global prospect you do it 100% of the time.

For sure. I even said that in the post. Not taking away anything from what he's doing and not predicting a collapse. But those numbers are certainly a red flag. At the end of the day his job is to stop the other team from scoring. He's doing that well now. But there's some pretty big signs that it may not be sustainable. I wish the kid nothing but the best and that trade is certainly not a gold star moment for the FO. And I'm well aware that a large segment of the baseball fan population aren't fans of statcast data, advanced stats, analytics, what-have-you, but its available data that gives a look into how he's performing that people can do with what they will. I omitted his 74th percentile K%, 81st BB%, 71st Whiff%, and 78th Chase Rate that explain why he's able to survive giving up hard contact. The job of front offices and scouts and coaches is to determine if he can maintain those good rates and/or improve the bad ones. I'd certainly rather have Ynoa in a Twins uniform right now than having traded him for 1 Garcia start, but that's hindsight and I wasn't overly upset with the trade at the time.