TheLeviathan

Fair points, but then it comes down to hoping that they targeted the right players in their return.

Glad this opens up more consistent time for Austin.

No one is asking you to be happy. But you are being asked to accept reality. And to stop trolling every damn thread with your "So you're saying there's a chance!" logic and "woe is us!" regret over a lost season. So no, go ahead and be unhappy. Just stop with all this. Please. And here's a little fun fact: those of us who have accepted that the FO did the right thing....we're not "happy" either. I was all about adding Darvish this offseason. I can show you where I drafted Byron Buxton in fantasy drafts this year and you'll have zero surprise why I'm not having a good year. I was invested in this team contending. I predicted playoffs before the season. But, unfortunately, reality didn't match my hopes. Going on hoping against all data and probability may sound good as a fan, but it doesn't as a decision maker in a business.

Haven't the Twins tried to move him around in the batting order and he has responded poorly to it? (In terms of attitude)

The front office would be unwise to act like a fan. This paragraph is exactly the problem. Be disappointed as a fan, but then please take into consideration what the FO is tasked with and the best, data-driven, realistic decision they have available to them. They made that decision and we should be happy about that, even if it stings a little. Constantly posting "there was a chance" sounds like Lloyd Christmas. I'd like to think we're all happy our FO isn't making decisions like him.

I don't think Ervin needs forgiveness. He also doesn't need a pedestal. I wish he would've remembered this part of your post. Along with quite a few others around here. Vikings start tonight. So for those of you struggling to balance fandom vs. sports as a business....well, we get to be hopeful anew with our football team again. At least until they rip our hearts out Temple of Doom style again about January.

"This sucks" Took less than three seconds to think of and is honest, doesn't pass the blame, and accounts for his emotions. This isn't rocket science. He chose to go down the road of "us" and "them". Maybe Tom is being too harsh, but you're being too forgiving.

No, I don't feel that strongly either. However, when you said this: I don't see how you can possibly reframe "They gave up on us" as anything other than placing blame on them. There was no "we", it was "they". And, I'm sorry, but that isn't being candid - it's being emotional. He's entitled to that and the frustration that comes with it, but let's avoid sugar-coating what it is. He said something that lacks the context to be a fair criticism. That venting string of comments was then used by several posters to go after the FO in much the same vein as Ervin was. It was lauded as "candid". It was even called "professional". It was nothing of the sort. He blamed the FO for the sense of a lost season out of frustration. That's what it was. And what really bugs me about this (and about 18 other threads on this forum right now) is that a bunch of posters who are usually rational, data-driven posters who provide good justifications for their opinions, have resorted to some absolute nonsense over the last few weeks. I was thinking about this today and let me throw a (deliberately) silly scenario at you to consider: The 2018 Twins finish the season on a mind-bending run and carry it into the playoffs. So far that they make it to Game 7 against the Dodgers in the World Series. Kershaw dominates the game into the ninth as the Dodgers lead 1-0 but the Twins scratch a single and a double against him with two outs. So the World Series winning run might be sitting at 2nd base.....but Bobby Wilson is up. Now, because of Kershaw, the Twins sat Mauer so he's there, on the bench, ready to pinch hit as the Dodgers call in Jansen. But Molitor decides in Scenario A that against all odds, data, and good sense that he's going to roll with Bobby Wilson because he (as he says post-game) "doesn't want Bobby to think I gave up on him" or that "he was due" or some other hope-driven reasoning. Wilson grounds out meekly and the Twins lose. In Scenario B, Molitor pinch hits Mauer because by all rational thinking and data he has, the chances of winning are much better with Mauer at the plate. The Twins still lose, but at least they lose making good decisions. I'd like you to consider which of those scenarios you would typically endorse of the team's decision makers. And now consider which scenario you (and several other prominent posters) have been casting your die for about three weeks now. Sometimes we have to separate our fandom from the decisions that are made by a business. And that can be hard, but we'd do it in virtually every other scenario with this team. Even in a scenario in which our entire season would hilariously boil down to Bobby Wilson.

Exactly, this team was flirting with 10 games under and 6-10 games back in their division. The FO didn't have the luxury to wait out the games with Cleveland. We'd have all loved to have those games before the deadline, but the decision makers didn't have that luxury. Yet it feels like a repeated hammer against their decisions that they didn't "wait" for those games. The problem with a lot of the criticisms on this board, and Ervin's, is a complete omission of the larger context of how and why the decisions had to be made. And, just like Ervin, frustration is totally fair. But without the context, the criticisms that stem from that frustration are often ridiculously unfair.

With all due respect spycake, I think you're spinning this way too positively. Given the question he was asked, he had no sound basis to say the FO "gave up on them". I especially love the line of "We were only 10 games back". That comes off as willfully ignorant. Ervin Santana is an adult who, by now, should know that the game he plays is also a business. He is absolutely welcome to feel upset that many of his teammates and friends were traded away, but he should also understand the context. He had many avenues to answer that question candidly while also understanding the predicament the FO was in at the deadline. He chose instead to use that question as a sounding board to unfairly attack the FO.

Actually, prior to the NFL getting a major sponsorship from the military within the last decade, the players didn't even leave the locker room until after the anthem. So, no, it's absolutely not required. In fact, it was common practice for teams not to be out there. I think that's the true source of a lot of the NFL's bungling of this issue. They have this major sponsor they are trying to keep happy and still balance the player's interests. (And it's clear which of those they have more interest in appealing to) What really sucks is that this is a winning issue for Trump and a losing issue for the players. I wish the NFL would pull in about 20 of the most active players and shoot straight with them: they can't have the kneeling during the anthem for the reasons above, so ask them what else they can do to show they support the players and their cause.

I'm ok with him being pissed. I guess I would've preferred the team had gotten this upset about their fate back in May. It would've been nice if Dozier hadn't been a hole in the lineup for the entire year. Or if Buxton could stay on the field. Or if Sano could've been better prepared to help. Or if LoMo or Lynn would've justified their signing. I could go on. Being mad at the FO for selling at 48-56? That's just ridiculous. It really is.

You're right. They should've gone all in on the 48-56 team. We were just lying in wait. Maybe your points about earlier in the season are valid, seems worth talking about. But any points about July 29th are flat out ridiculous. And so were Ervin's comments about "giving up". That nonsense needs to end. It's over. The right thing was done. Move on.

Yes! More of this the rest of the way please!

Near as I recall, I don't remember Falvey or Levine stinking it up during any games on their way to being 8 games under .500. I love all these people "rah rah"ing a guy who is passing the blame. Yeah, he was candid, but he refused to take accountability like an adult. You want candid? Don't suck your way to a 48-56 record and maybe your FO doesn't sell. That's candid and it also has the benefit to be truth rather than sour grapes.

He may be our CFer of the future, in which case his production doesn't look so bad relative to his position. But his defense also takes a hit.

Yeah, I don't fault him one bit. You had to try, but his decision is totally ok.

Absolutely. I just experience too often that some on the two sides aren't willing to see some value in the other, even if they value other things. I value analytics, but I am quick to point to their flaws. And I value some aspects of old-school thinking, even if I criticize much of it.

I think the problem lies in the fact that analytics people and old-school people have only pejoratives to say of the other. And rarely admit the obvious frailties of their viewpoint.

Honestly, I thought we could get more for him than what this looks like on the surface. Once again looks like high velocity, high upside gamble.

I would rather keep Sano at 3B until we absolutely have to move him. I'd rather see if there is some AAAA player or reclamation project at 1B. I was merely suggesting that a 1 year deal for Mauer isn't the absolute worst idea if everyone understands what he is. (Which, as I say it, is basically not realistic)

That was the basis of my post about Berger too, so I'm right with you. I was sort of hoping to find a good example of your plan and the options were even worse than I would've thought. Iupati might be an option, but I doubt it.

You're right, but he's an option that could plug and play and there are precious few people who qualify. I wouldn't leave any stone unturned.

I like the idea but who, at this stage right now, is walking into the year knowing they are a bad team? The Jets? Maybe the Bills, Cardinals, or Indy? It's really hard to say at this point. And none of them have a guard worth a damn who wasn't just signed.

I'm not sure how good he is now. That's the thing, I have a lot of distrust in minor league scouting reports about defense, so I just have to trust the organization is making good decisions in that regard. It might be time to consider Kepler a full-time CFer next year if Buxton can't hit.