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    Potential Prospect Cost in Twins Trades


    Ted Schwerzler

    As we move closer to July, we also push towards the looming Major League Baseball trade deadline. With the waiver period being removed in 2019, the July 31st deadline is a hard cap on all player acquisition. There’s no denying that the Minnesota Twins need to find some pitching help, and the assumption is that the answers will come in the form of a “when” as opposed to an “if.” As names circulate from an acquisition standpoint, it’s fair to wonder what the cost may be.

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    From the outset I think we can safely assume that neither Royce Lewis nor Alex Kirilloff are going anywhere for the Twins. Moving either of the two top prospects, both among the top 10 across baseball, would be monumental. Barring a blockbuster deal including a high caliber player with multiple years of team control it just doesn’t seem to be on the horizon.

    We can attempt to glean an idea of what packages may look like by viewing things through the lens of recently made deals. From a top tier starting pitcher standpoint, the Chris Archer deal is a good place to turn:

    Pirates get Chris Archer in exchange for Tyler Glasnow, Austin Meadows, and Shane Baz

    Viewing this deal through the lens of Minnesota’s organization, you’re looking at something like Brusdar Graterol, Trevor Larnach, and Jordan Balazovic all being sent out. There’s a possibility that Graterol ends up as a reliever, and that’s the biggest evaluation Minnesota needs to make. Larnach looks the part of a legit corner outfield bat, and Balazovic has emerged as a middle-of-the-rotation starter. A return like this would by more focused on nabbing a player like Marcus Stroman or Matt Boyd than it would a rental option. No doubt losing the prospect capital would sting for the Twins, but they’d be targeting a pitcher that can improve the rotation both immediately and in the future.

    There isn’t a great blueprint for a top-tier rental pitcher being moved in 2018, but one happened a year earlier:

    Dodgers get Yu Darvish in exchange for Willie Calhoun, A.J. Alexy, and Brendon Davis

    The further back we go the more complicated it gets to evaluate prospects and returns on an equal playing field. Even in a rental situation, there needs to be at least one top 100 inclusion if the expectation is a number two starter. It’s Graterol that’s likely the coveted get, although there’s an outside chance he could be changed out for Larnach. Wander Javier may be enough of an add in on his own to get the job done, or a pair of Jhoan Duran and Nick Gordon could make sense. This is the grouping that will need to be explored most if Minnesota is going to make a push for San Francisco Giants Madison Bumgarner. There are no guarantees he’s in a Twins uniform past 2019, and losing some serious future depth will hurt, but if it pushes the postseason performance to the next level it could be worth it.

    Relievers are a fickle bunch and looking at the 2019 free agent crop is an absolute minefield. Getting the right guy will come down to scouting, but needing a high-leverage arm may not be cheap either:

    Indians get Brad Hand and Adam Cimber in exchange for Francisco Mejia

    Although Cimber posted great numbers with the Padres in 2018 this move was about Hand, his elite ability as a closer, and being under team control for up to the next three seasons. Cleveland had to part with their top prospect and a consensus top 30 player across baseball. Short of netting Felipe Vasquez from the Pittsburgh Pirates, Minnesota should be able to improve without going down this path. Both Jeurys Familia and Zack Britton were had for lesser returns and that’s the pool the Twins likely want to wade in. Some combination of Brent Rooker, Nick Gordon, Blayne Enlow, and Akil Baddoo should be an enticing group to an opposing team.

    There’re a couple of takeaways for potential moves the Twins could make, and they’ll need to thin out a group that has more 40-man options than the team can accommodate. As the big-league club moves into a winning window, turning some of the depth into usable major league pieces is a logical decision.

    If I had to make a couple of assumptions regarding pieces that will be moved here’s what I’m going with:

    The Twins will make three trades, or acquire a total of three players, in the form of a starter and two relievers. The starter will be good enough to act as the third best option, with both relievers intended to operate in high leverage.

    Across the trades that Minnesota makes, no fewer than five prospects will be dealt. The starter is probably going to cost at least two players with the potential for a third, and that could leave the relievers eating up another two or three bodies.

    Trevor Larnach would seem the most likely bat to be moved. He’s got a safer floor than Brent Rooker, and he looks the part of a guy who should be no worse than an every day big leaguer. I’d guess Derek Falvey wants to hang onto Graterol if possible, making the Oregon State product the next most valuable asset. If there’s a pitcher dealt outside of Graterol, one of the duo acquired last season (Jhoan Duran/Jorge Alcala) is a good bet.

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    If you really believe Scherzer is still "immensely effective" and you'd "take him a heartbeat", maybe it's not so "dumb" that the Nats don't want to deal him. :)

     

    It's hard to get fair value return on really good players -- that's why so few of them are dealt by teams with plausible arguments for current or near-future contention.

    I should preface that I think the Nats are dumb for not trading him because they are clearly not good this year and probably next. By time they might be in contention (which could be 3 years or more) again he is gonna be too old to really be effective, they need to cash in on an older but effective player now rather than getting nothing for him. Just my take

    It all depends on how much salary is absorbed by either side in a salary dump candidate.

     

    Sometimes a team wants the promise of the future, instead of also rans and guys that another team has yet to see fit to put in their plans.

     

    Plus, a team also looks at where they are strong and weak in their own system. You don't need a Twins top shortstop (or middle infield) prospect if you have one or two of your own. You trade for system weakness/depth. And who can play today. Who can break the lineup tomorrow. And who will be on your team in 2021 or beyond!

     

     

    I should preface that I think the Nats are dumb for not trading him because they are clearly not good this year and probably next. By time they might be in contention (which could be 3 years or more) again he is gonna be too old to really be effective, they need to cash in on an older but effective player now rather than getting nothing for him. Just my take

    Re: "clearly not good this year and probably next"

     

    The Nationals are currently 15th in non-pitcher wRC+, and likewise 15th in runs scored per game, ahead of their rival Phillies and Mets. (For Statcast types, they're 12th in xwOBA too.)

     

    The Nationals are 8th in starting pitcher ERA, and 4th in FIP and 5th in xFIP. (Also 5th best xwOBA by Statcast.)

     

    But the Nationals are dead last in reliever ERA, 22nd in FIP, and 29th in xFIP. (29th in xwOBA as well.)

     

    Even with that awful pen, they're still tied with Philadelphia for 2nd place the division in Pythag record, and they're even 5 games ahead of Philly by BaseRuns record. Looking at wild card competition, the Nationals are tied with Milwaukee in both Pythag and BaseRuns record.

     

    The Nationals are currently running a $197 mil payroll, but they could shed $70 mil in departing free agents this winter, giving them more than enough room to make an aggressive bid to retain Rendon plus add other pieces or rein in payroll a bit, if they so desire, and go forward with their great SP and young controlled hitters like Soto and Turner.

     

    The Nationals are clearly not perfect and will face challenges, for sure, but this doesn't look like a recipe for aggressively shopping a guy like Scherzer right now. MLB bullpens can and do get turned around quickly. The Nationals actually led the division in reliever ERA just last year (and were 15th in MLB). The whole division ranks 20th through 24th, respectively, in 2019 bullpen FIP.

     

    Unless they are absolutely blown away by an offer -- like, 3 elite prospects and all the salary relief, sending Scherzer to an AL team -- I can't see them moving Scherzer now.

     

    Strasburg is actually the more interesting case -- he has an opt out after this season with 4/100 remaining, and a limited no-trade clause right now. Although if they think he's likely to opt out, that would obviously drop his trade value to rental territory too, assuming they could even navigate the no-trade. (Given his health history and the recent FA markets, he might stick with the 4/100, or maybe just use the opt out to negotiate a further extension like Sabathia did a few years back.)

     

    Speaking of the Nationals...

     

    Anthony Rendon + Sean Doolittle for Sano + Duran. 

     

    Who says no?

    The Nationals? With his strikeouts/defense/position/health, it feels like Sano might be capped at about a 125 OPS+, 3 WAR type player right now. Maybe a team can get him to unlock more potential, but that takes time, and Sano only has 2 years of team control left after 2019.

     

    That player profile isn't bad, but for just 2 seasons of that at arb salaries for a NL team (no DH option), that's probably a light return for Rendon, no? Especially if they are also giving up the inside track at re-signing Rendon -- if they want to compete in 2020-2021, they're probably better off keeping Doolittle and doing their best to sign Rendon.

    Edited by spycake

    The problem I have with dealing Sano is it means either the Turtle will have to take over full time 3rd base or Gonzalez gets moved out of super utility role (which is what gives him quite a bit of his value).

    With the way Sano has been hitting lately I think he should be pinch hit for late in the game.

    I think the Twins are a better team without Sano right now. I’d love for them to put Arrenz at 3rd to get a persistent hitter that gets on base consistently, granted without the HR’s. Sano is a HR or bust guy who will always be a .220 hitter.

     

    The Nationals? With his strikeouts/defense/position/health, it feels like Sano might be capped at about a 125 OPS+, 3 WAR type player right now. Maybe a team can get him to unlock more potential, but that takes time, and Sano only has 2 years of team control left after 2019.

     

    That player profile isn't bad, but for just 2 seasons of that at arb salaries for a NL team (no DH option), that's probably a light return for Rendon, no? Especially if they are also giving up the inside track at re-signing Rendon -- if they want to compete in 2020-2021, they're probably better off keeping Doolittle and doing their best to sign Rendon.

    I don't disagree with anything you said. Sano is a tough guy to value. I was trying to frame it in terms similar to the Machado trade last year (also a rental). The Machado deal was headlined by a 50 FV, back-of-the-top-100-list player in Diaz. Someone not unlike Larnach. Now, I personally think Sano > Larnach/Diaz or someone of that ilk, even if he only has 2 years of team control left. And the fact that Sano can play 1B (which the Nationals need) would allow them to still make a big run at resigning Rendon this offseason. It would also help the Nationals try to contend next year, whereas a prospect might not play right away.

     

    But now that I think about it more, my suggestion is obviously undervaluing Doolittle. Sano+Duran is probably close enough for just Rendon, but the Nats would need another really good piece to include Doolittle.

     

    I think the Twins are a better team without Sano right now. I’d love for them to put Arrenz at 3rd to get a persistent hitter that gets on base consistently, granted without the HR’s. Sano is a HR or bust guy who will always be a .220 hitter.

    Not sure I am comfortable putting a rookie at starting 3B who has played the following games as third base.

    2015 - 2
    2016 - 3
    2017 - 0
    2018 - 32
    2019 - 19

     

    I would let Sano start and be ready to pinch hit for him later in the game. I would even feel better when Ehire is back. ( My mind could be changed if Arraez keeps hitting around .300 and doesn;t butcher 3rd base)

    I hope any trade includes quantity instead of quality prospects.

     

    Trade 2-3 2nd tier prospects instead of one 1st tier prospect.

     

    The Twins roster is going to get expensive (especially SP) and they need low cost replacements.

     

    My 1st tier untouchable list:

    Lewis

    Kirilloff

    Balazovic

    Graterol

    Duran

    Enlow

     

    1st Tier Nearly untouchable

    Larnach

    Javier

    Rooker

    Arraez

    Rortvedt

     

     

     

    I don't disagree with anything you said. Sano is a tough guy to value. I was trying to frame it in terms similar to the Machado trade last year (also a rental). The Machado deal was headlined by a 50 FV, back-of-the-top-100-list player in Diaz. Someone not unlike Larnach. Now, I personally think Sano > Larnach/Diaz or someone of that ilk, even if he only has 2 years of team control left. And the fact that Sano can play 1B (which the Nationals need) would allow them to still make a big run at resigning Rendon this offseason. It would also help the Nationals try to contend next year, whereas a prospect might not play right away.

     

    But now that I think about it more, my suggestion is obviously undervaluing Doolittle. Sano+Duran is probably close enough for just Rendon, but the Nats would need another really good piece to include Doolittle.

    It's an interesting idea, to be sure.

     

    The thing about Machado was, the Orioles had very little leverage. Zero chance to re-sign him, and zero need/interest too. Potential suitors could start out just beating the value of the comp pick. If the Machado deal is your valuation basis of your offer for Rendon, Washington is very likely to turn it down, I think.

     

    And I'm not sure if 2 years of Sano at 1B (and with arb-2 and arb-3 salaries based on him playing 3B) brings that much value either. Find another Adams, or Kendrick, or Cron? They don't really need to spend assets like rental Rendon or even Doolittle to get their 2020-2021 first baseman.

     

    Teams will overpay for playoff caliber starters and late inning relievers with team control. Larnach will not be enough. He loses value as a corner player and he hasn’t shown great power in high A.

     

    Larnach is a 22 year old in the most pitcher-friendly professional league there is.  He's 4th in SLG, He's 1st in doubles, tied for 20th in homers (and it should be noted, only 3 guys have more than 8 homers; one big series and he pops up to top 10 easily).  He's leading the league in average (one of only 4 guys above .300), and is third in OBP.

     

    This might be heretical, but I'm increasingly open to the idea that Larnach is on a par with Kiriloff.  Kiriloff's OPS+ of 168 as a 20 year old in A+ is definitely better than Larnach's 150 as a 22 year old in the same league, but if Kiriloff will get you a much better return, I'm ok with trading Kiriloff to keep Larnach.

     

    Both Gibson and Pineda are without question trending in the right direction. I don't think a 2 game sample size on Gibson is at all fair either. WHIP can be all over the place in that number of games. I'm a bit concerned bout Perez. He is trending in the wrong direction though I do think he could be a solution in the pen with his 2 good pitches. 

     

    I do think adding a starter makes sense, but I'm not really a fan of aiming low. I'd want a guy like Matt Boyd, Syndergard, etc. 

     

    Agree with this.  Strip out Gibson's first two starts, when he was still trying to gain weight/strength, and here's what you get;

     

    11 starts, 3.38 FIP, 3.18 xFIP, 9.4 k/9, 1.6 bb/9, completely reasonable .287 babip and 74.4% lob.

     

    That FIP puts him at 20th in the league, just behind Greinke, while the xFIP puts him 7th, just behind Strasburg, and ahead of deGrom.  Not too shabby for a 3rd starter.

     

    Even if you don't strip out those first two starts, Gibson is 11th in xFIP; Berrios is 38th and Odorizzi is 44th.

    I hope any trade includes quantity instead of quality prospects.

     

    Trade 2-3 2nd tier prospects instead of one 1st tier prospect.

     

    The Twins roster is going to get expensive (especially SP) and they need low cost replacements.

     

    My 1st tier untouchable list:

    Lewis

    Kirilloff

    Balazovic

    Graterol

    Duran

    Enlow

     

    1st Tier Nearly untouchable

    Larnach

    Javier

    Rooker

    Arraez

    Rortvedt

    Consider it from the other end.

     

    What kind of prospects would you want the Twins to pursue? Quantity or quality?

     

    I am in the quality camp.

    Last year the Twins got quantity prospects for their players.

    That really all comes down to the Pressly trade. They received back the preseason 10 and 14 prospects both 40s. There are similarly rated prospects in your quality list.

     

    I would agree that the two trend towards quantity. Everybody has similarly rated prospects. The challenge is that beyond Lewis, Kirilloff and Graterol any other team can play in that market.

     

    Pitching is the best trade currency and the untouchable list has four of their best pitching assets. I would hang up and call someone else if I was told those pitching prospects were untouchable. If the Twins want to get a pitcher at the top of the bullpen or rotation it is going to hurt. They will lose quality prospects.

    Celestino and Alcala are MLB pre-season #15 & #18 Twin prospects and rated 45.

     

    50 prospects not on protected list: Thorpe, Gordon, Gonsalves, Baddoo.

     

    Plus a number of 45s.

     

    Not to re-hash the Ramos-Capps trade but I certainly don't want to repeat it.

    Interesting. MLB's list had 27 guys at 45 or above; Fangraphs only had 8.

     

    I've never really check the MLB values before -- are they just inflated overall, compared to Fangraphs?

    Interesting. MLB's list had 27 guys at 45 or above; Fangraphs only had 8.

    I've never really check the MLB values before -- are they just inflated overall, compared to Fangraphs?

    I believe so. MLB is playing to a more general audience and the reality of only a handful of guys in each system projected to be an average major league regular is not going to excite a fan base.

     

    I hope any trade includes quantity instead of quality prospects.

     

    Trade 2-3 2nd tier prospects instead of one 1st tier prospect.

     

    The Twins roster is going to get expensive (especially SP) and they need low cost replacements.

     

    My 1st tier untouchable list:

    Lewis

    Kirilloff

    Balazovic

    Graterol

    Duran

    Enlow

     

    1st Tier Nearly untouchable

    Larnach

    Javier

    Rooker

    Arraez

    Rortvedt

     

    HandsomeTatteredCrab-size_restricted.gif

    I say all are in play for the right deal as there are areas of surplus. Both Lewis and Kiriloff have strong fellow prospects at their position. As long as we don’t deplete one position area I am fine dealing anyone. Hell we don’t even know if Lewis will end up being the best SS in our system. I’m thinking Javier might be the SS of the future. If you can get a stud controllable pitcher for him go for it




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