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    Position Battle: 4th & 5th Starters


    Nick Nelson

    The Twins have a firmly established trio of starters in place that they will build around. Barring injuries, you can bet that Ervin Santana, Phil Hughes and Kyle Gibson will all be in the rotation when Minnesota heads to Baltimore to open the season in April.

    Behind them, things are unsettled.

    Image courtesy of Jesse Johnson, USA Today

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    After spending every recent offseason exhaustively searching all avenues for starting pitching help, Terry Ryan and the Twins have refreshingly been able to abstain this winter. Even with Mike Pelfrey departing and no significant additions coming aboard, there will be plenty of quality competition in-house for the final two spots.

    In 2015, the Twins had nine different players make starts, and that was their lowest total in four years. Chances are, every pitcher listed below will get his chance at some point this year, so the composition of the group that goes north only matters so much.

    In some ways, as we'll discuss, the club is actually incentivized not to carry their best talent from the very start of the regular season.

    By all accounts, though, the decision-makers are keeping an open mind about those available rotation spots, which should lead to some heated competition in March. This is undoubtedly by design.

    Let's take a look at the contenders that will be making their cases.

    Why Tommy Milone Will Win A Job

    With his low velocity and middling strikeout rates, Milone doesn't get a ton of love from the sabermetric crowd, but he has been a reliably solid back-of-the-rotation starter and there is value in that.

    The Twins settled with Milone on a $4.5 million salary for this season, and that's not the kind of money you pay for a reliever who has almost no experience pitching out of the bullpen. Be assured, the team is heading into camp with designs on him as a starter, just as they did last spring when the job was his to lose in a competition that included Trevor May, Alex Meyer and Mike Pelfrey.

    That is, no small part, because Milone is the lone left-hander in this entire picture.

    It's not an overriding factor, and if he looks flat-out crummy in camp or is blatantly surpassed by others, I could see Milone heading to the bullpen. But he's as close to a lock as you'll find on this list.

    Why Tyler Duffey Will Win A Job

    He earned it. With the way Duffey responded after being called up to the majors last August, the Twins will be hard-pressed not to put him in the rotation. Following a rough outing in a brutal match-up at Toronto for his MLB debut, Duffey went 5-0 with a 2.25 ERA in his final nine starts, and Minnesota went 8-1 in those games.

    During his introduction to the highest level, the right-hander checked all the boxes. He attacked the strike zone. He pitched deep into games. He missed bats and kept the ball in the park. Duffey deployed his spectacular curveball with deadly effectiveness and out-pitched all of his peers in the rotation.

    There are question marks attached to the 25-year-old hurler, however. Ultimately, 10 starts is still a small sample size and Duffey still has only 17 total starts at Triple-A. As good as he was in the minors last year, his long-term track record isn't quite as impressive, especially when it comes to strikeouts.

    And there is this: Duffey is essentially a two-pitch guy. He threw his fastball or curve 98 percent of the time as a rookie with the Twins. Some can make that work as a starter, but most don't. As Twins Daily community member gopherman23 recently pointed out, the righty's 39.8 percent usage rate with the hook was the highest in the majors since 2002.

    Could the Twins send Duffey back to the minors to work on polishing a third pitch?

    Why Ricky Nolasco Will Win A Job

    The obvious (and perhaps unsatisfactory) answer is that he's being paid $12 million this year and next. Twins officials have made it pretty clear that decisions regarding Nolasco won't be dictated by the money he's owed, but you can bet he will be given every chance to earn it.

    And he deserves that much. I realize that damn near every Twins fan is incredibly down on the veteran righty, understandably so, but the truth is that he has never had a sustained opportunity to show what he can do here while fully healthy. Both of his seasons in Minnesota have been marred by injury. Last year in limited duty he put up a 3.51 FIP and struck out 35 batters in 37 innings, so there is something to build on there.

    Compared to others on this list, Nolasco simply has no case based on his accomplishments with this team. He has an uphill battle in that regard, but I do think that if he's sharp in spring training the Twins will be inclined to jump him ahead in line because he can't be sent to the minors and he offers little in the bullpen other than long relief.

    And, yeah, they're paying him quite a bit of money to start games.

    Why Jose Berrios Will Win A Job

    He may very well be the most talented pitcher on this list, and the only one with true "ace" potential. Berrios obliterated the highest levels of the minors last year and was in position for a late-season call-up, though the Twins ultimately decided to pass.

    There is almost zero question that he is ready to pitch in the majors. His supremacy over Triple-A hitters in July and August left little doubt. But by starting him back in Rochester and waiting even a few weeks to call him up, the Twins stand to push back his free agency clock and gain a full extra year of team control down the line. Given that Berrios will be 27 – the midst of his theoretical prime – in six years, that extra season could be extremely valuable.

    Of course, this all becomes somewhat moot if the Twins lock him up with a contract extension at some point. And while there is a reasonable and logical argument against bringing him north regardless of how he performs, if he truly transcends the competition it's going to be a hard sell sending him back to a level that he has already mastered.

    Berrios, and the decisions surrounding him, will easily be among the most compelling storylines to follow this spring.

    Why Trevor May Will Win A Job

    He is as qualified as anybody. May was a good prospect as a starting pitcher rising through the minors and broke through last year with a strong first-half performance in the Twins rotation before circumstances forced him to the bullpen.

    Circumstances, unfortunately, continue to work against the young right-hander. His performance after shifting to relief was so impressive that it evidently convinced the Twins to bypass the relief market this offseason while viewing May as one of their core pieces at the back end of the bullpen.

    That means May's chances of winning a starting job, or even being a legit contender for one, are low. It would likely take injuries to more than one other guy on this list for the Twins to rearrange their plans so dramatically. They simply need May in the late innings.

    Others In The Mix: Taylor Rogers, Pat Dean, Alex Meyer

    With the five pitchers above vying for two spots, there isn't much of an opening for these fringe outsiders.

    Rogers and Dean were both added to the 40-man roster after impressive campaigns at Rochester last year, and they gain some extra points for being lefties. Meyer was ranked as one of the organization's best pitching prospects as recently as a year ago, but there have always been serious questions about his ability to remain a starter and his trainwreck 2015 season may have been the final straw pushing him to a reliever designation.

    All in all, though, the Twins have more quality starting pitching depth in place than they've had in at least half a decade. They really need one or two guys to step up and take over at the front of the rotation, but it's hugely refreshing to see such a wide array of hurlers in the mix with no Mike Pelfrey or Kevin Correia types clogging things up.

    More help is on the way, too, in the form of rising young arms like Stephen Gonsalves, Kohl Stewart and Tyler Jay.

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    The 22-year-old went 2-for-5 on Friday night, his fourth straight multi-hit game. Heading into the week, he was hitting .246/.328/.404 (.732). Four games later, he is hitting .303/.361/.447 (.808).

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    Featured Comments

     

    I think you're confusing me with another poster...one who advocates, for example, keeping Buxton in AAA, so as not to potentially hurt his long term development, while doing little to nothing about THIS team.

    I'm the guy who would put Buxton in CF, and let him develop-- maybe even sink or swim--but do my best to surround him with the talent to win now. Let the future take care of itself. If Buxton/Sano/Berrios don't lead us to the promised land in 2019, at least I haven't wasted another 3 years finding that out.

    If I have the choice to win now, and perhaps tomorrow, I take that every time over losing now, in hopes I MIGHT perhaps win tomorrow.

    As for Buxton, I'm in favor of whatever TR and PM think is best for his development. I don't know enough about baseball and about Buxton to say whether that means AAA or the bigs and neither does anyone else on this board. But if he heads to Rochester the team should not make any significant sacrifices to acquire a stopgap center fielder. Trying to get a couple extra wins while we wait would not be worth giving up anything.

     

    I think you're confusing me with another poster...one who advocates, for example, keeping Buxton in AAA, so as not to potentially hurt his long term development, while doing little to nothing about THIS team.

    I'm the guy who would put Buxton in CF, and let him develop-- maybe even sink or swim--but do my best to surround him with the talent to win now. Let the future take care of itself. If Buxton/Sano/Berrios don't lead us to the promised land in 2019, at least I haven't wasted another 3 years finding that out.

    If I have the choice to win now, and perhaps tomorrow, I take that every time over losing now, in hopes I MIGHT perhaps win tomorrow.

     

    No, what I may be confusing you with is someone that says "development be damned, if it hurts Buxton long-term I don't care, as long as I get one more 2016 win"  Because that is a natural consequence of what you're advocating.

     

    There are tradeoffs for forcing your hand too soon and finding that balance is important.  If "win now, at all costs" is the mantra, you are casting off concern for the negative consequences (meager or substantial) for whatever (meager or substantial) rewards you might incur.  I prefer to mitigate the negative consequences while maximizing the overall rewards.  So I don't want to "win now at all costs".  I prefer to "win as much as I can, without hurting myself in the future".

     

    That can mean different things to different people and the job of Ryan is to establish what we "can" do and what would hurt in the future.  And certainly the team could be doing more to help win now and not hurt the future.  But at some point you need to let your Kyle Gibsons flounder/adjust a bit so they can be ready to contribute later.  Or let your Trevor Plouffes settle in where they can contribute.  That comes with the very likely result of losing some immediate success for the investment in future contributions.  And you can't just get out of that need to invest in players to adjust.

    Trying to get a couple extra wins while we wait would not be worth giving up anything.

    Not even worth money?

     

    What would a couple more wins have been worth last year?

     

    I'd be fine with sending Buxton to AAA, and letting him force his way past a good player into the Twins lineup.

     

    I'd be fine with Buxton starting in Minnesota if the judgement is he's better than anything they could get.

     

    What I have a problem with is doing neither.

    I honestly think that everyone is going to groan, but I really feel that Nolasco is going to break out this year.  I don't mean he is going to be an All-Star.  But his arm has only been used for half a season for two years in a row and his legs are finally healthy.  I realistically predict 12 - 14 wins with 9 - 11 losses around a 4 era with 170 - 190 innings pitched and 140 - 160 strikeouts.  Everyone has always noted that a lot of his periphrials have always looked decent and that he has been somewhat of a victim of bad luck; I think that with a healthy arm and healthy legs that he breaks out, not like a super star but like a Ricky Nolasco of about 4 - 5 years ago. That puts the beginning of the year at Santana, Hughes, Gibson, Nolasco, Milone. 

    My next prediction is that everyone is saying that Phil Hughes is toast and should go to the bull pen which I agree, but I think the Twins are going to need him in the rotation because this years injury will be Ervin Santana.  His arm has been hanging on by threads for a couple of years now.  I don't see him making it through a full season, or possibly spring training.  Santana is in my opinion going to become the next big elephant in the room.

     

    What would a couple more wins have been worth last year?
     

    Zero or less. We'd have lost either to the Yankees or to the Royals in the postseason. And we'd be further away from contention this year and in the future because we would have had to give up another prospect or two to get those couple more wins.

    Edited by spinowner

    Would have been, could have been, should have been.  I think we pretty much know how this will play out.

    He who has the contract gets the job.  However, I'm also on the side that says:  if another pitcher forces the issue, they get the job.

     

    Duffey [after the horrible decision to bring him up against a Blue Jays team that just reloaded] pitched very well and deserves a shot at starting.  Berrios was protected.  The Twins follow a loose rule that says you allow a young starter to pitch an increased number of pitches per year.  MiLB.com says 166 for the year.  I'd say he's ready for the next step, and in the MLB. 

     

    I'd like to see both force this issue during Spring Training.

     

    Zero or less. We'd have lost either to the Yankees or to the Royals in the postseason. And we'd be further away from contention this year and in the future because we would have had to give up another prospect or two to get those couple more wins.

     

    Well in a bubble where you can predict the future, I suppose that could be true.  I think you doubled down on the absolute Chief was warning you to avoid.  Aside from the fact that Chief was directly referencing money and not prospects, a small percentage of prospects ever make a difference at the big league level.  Most of the time you can easily recovery from losing a couple prospects, even blue chip prospects.  Your assumption that giving up a prospect or two would hurt us in the future is an over-assumption.  Well run organizations should have some balance between present and future.  If your goal is to win a championship, you run your organization one way.  If your goal is to win multiple championships, you might run it another way.  If your goal is to stay consistently competitive and make money by convincing your fan base that you're a small market team who should be prouder of making the playoffs on the cheap than winning a World Series on a larger budget, then you're the Twins.  If your goal is to consistently be a farm system for other big league squads, then you run through your prospects with little thought to your W/L record, and provide the other teams with detailed reports of your prospects so they refuse to trade for the bad ones, and wait to outbid you on the good ones.  After 7-8 years, you may have accumulated enough high first round picks to finish at .500.  (Twins last year).  At this point some teams may think it more fun to actually make the playoffs and go after a Gomez and a Fiers.  To each their own.  People enjoy baseball for a lot of reasons.  Watching prospects develop is the one good thing about following a losing team.  Following a winner, no matter how its built is much more fun, to me.

    Edited by Jham

     

    How'd that work out for the Blue Jays last year? How'd that work out for Oakland in 2014? Look at KC. They didn't make big sacrifices. They built their team for longer term success primarily with young players. Yes, it's better to win than to lose but if you put all your eggs in one season's basket you'd better wind up with a dominating team. Otherwise there's a high risk of ending up rebuilding for years when you should have been contending.

    Oh, and by the way, as we all know, this is and ever shall be an agree-to-disagree issue. (And we all love to disagree!)

     

    Uh, Toronto had the best team in baseball last year.....the playoffs are not a good measure of that. I'm not sure using them as a failed team is a good idea.

    My guess: the Twins are healthy through camp and start the season with Milone and Nolasco in the rotation, Duffey in a long relief role in the pen, and Berrios in Rochester.

     

    I could possibly see Nolasco and Duffey switch roles, but I think the most likely scenario is the one above.

    Uh, Toronto had the best team in baseball last year.....the playoffs are not a good measure of that. I'm not sure using them as a failed team is a good idea.

    If Toronto was a failure, then Terry Ryan has never had a single successful season as a GM.

     

    How'd that work out for the Blue Jays last year? How'd that work out for Oakland in 2014? Look at KC. They didn't make big sacrifices. They built their team for longer term success primarily with young players. Yes, it's better to win than to lose but if you put all your eggs in one season's basket you'd better wind up with a dominating team. Otherwise there's a high risk of ending up rebuilding for years when you should have been contending.

    Oh, and by the way, as we all know, this is and ever shall be an agree-to-disagree issue. (And we all love to disagree!)

    I would argue that KC did make big sacrifices to get over the hump and become WS champs. They gave up Finnegan, their #4 org prospect and 2 other prospects to get Cueto. It's debatable if Cueto helped or hindered the team during the regular season, but I'd be willing to bet every KC fan would make that same trade again after his CG in the WS.... 

     

    It's debatable if Cueto helped or hindered the team during the regular season, but I'd be willing to bet every KC fan would make that same trade again after his CG in the WS.... 

    No way.  The Royals won that game 7-1.  Jeremy Guthrie had a 5.95 ERA, so he could have won it 7-6 and they could have held on to all of their prospects.  :)

     

    Uh, Toronto had the best team in baseball last year.....the playoffs are not a good measure of that. I'm not sure using them as a failed team is a good idea.

    They may have had the roster best suited to win the regular season. However, last time I checked the goal in MLB is to win the WS. So the postseason is in fact a more important measure than the regular season. The 2001 Mariners are now remembered as the best baseball team that ever failed.

    Edited by spinowner

    I hope they stretch May out as a starter in spring training just in case. Having him pitch 3-4 innings as spring rounds down. Otherwise, they get to use that "not stretched out" excuse again. I hate to see May become the Swarzak replacement in the pen, and if he stays in relief he will become too expensive for the Twins UNLESS he can become a bonifide closer.

     

    No way.  The Royals won that game 7-1.  Jeremy Guthrie had a 5.95 ERA, so he could have won it 7-6 and they could have held on to all of their prospects.   :)

    There was definitely value to shutting down the other team and saving the bullpen for the next game, especially after they emptied the bullpen the night before.  And three of those runs came in the bottom of the 8th, so the game was actually much closer throughout.

     

    so, as posted above, then, Ryan has never had a successful year? Only winning the WS is considered a success? That's an awful way to go through life, imo.

    It's a tough business, to be sure, and it's very common to do the best you can and still fail. I think the 29 GM's who fail each year probably are able to move on with their lives.

     

    It's a tough business, to be sure, and it's very common to do the best you can and still fail. I think the 29 GM's who fail each year probably are able to move on with their lives.

     

    I guess we'll never agree on this point, which is cool with me. Have a great day.

     

    so, as posted above, then, Ryan has never had a successful year? Only winning the WS is considered a success? That's an awful way to go through life, imo.

     

    Well, you also can't have it both ways.  If you don't make any allowance for the GM but "win, baby, win"....then isn't that the only way to judge a GM is by if they win the World Series?

     

    It's part of the problem if there isn't much nuance to how you judge the efforts being made.

     

    Well, you also can't have it both ways.  If you don't make any allowance for the GM but "win, baby, win"....then isn't that the only way to judge a GM is by if they win the World Series?

     

    It's part of the problem if there isn't much nuance to how you judge the efforts being made.

     

    I've never typed "the only way to be successful is to win the WS", so I'm not sure what this post means......I am not trying to have it both ways.....

     

    How will we ever know what we have in young players if we don't give them a shot? We know what Milone is and it's back of the rotation starter. Shouldn't we want to at least see if we can top that?

    What Milone is, is a proven starter on a contending team with a career record of 41-29. When Berrios is called up, he'll still have plenty of time to win the ROY and Cy Young.

     

    I'd be a little sad if they gave up on May and Meyer as starters so quickly

     

    May has given them absolutely no reason to give up on him as a starter.  

     

    I think Meyer is a little different case, since with his height its always been a question about whether he could start long term.  That being said, if they don't plan on using him in the Major League bullpen early in the year, I hope they let him start for a few months in AAA

     

    I've never typed "the only way to be successful is to win the WS", so I'm not sure what this post means......I am not trying to have it both ways.....

     

    No, but you've liked the posts about "always win as much as humanly possible or else...."

     

    If you're going to endorse that sort of thing, I'm not sure how you can prize anything short of a WS.

     

    I like posts that are good, sometimes (often) even ones I disagree with. That's not an "agree" button.

     

    Right but then keep the responses in context.  The argument being advanced by some is "win at all costs", I'm not sure how you can go by that mantra and consider anything short of a WS title a "success".

     

    To me, those things go hand in hand if you're truly going to pound that stance of "win, baby, win".

    Right but then keep the responses in context.  The argument being advanced by some is "win at all costs", I'm not sure how you can go by that mantra and consider anything short of a WS title a "success".

     

    To me, those things go hand in hand if you're truly going to pound that stance of "win, baby, win".

    Only one poster in this thread has called winning the WS the only measure of success.

     

    And it's not Mike.

     

    //sorry, Mike, perhaps I shouldn't speak for you//




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