Playing Hurt: A Painful Debate

Where is the proof that Souhan was wrong or was ingaging in ridiculous exaggeration?  None was provided in the piece.  You stop short of calling him an outright lier so you must be refrencing something very specific.  Was it a bone bruise?  A little context to support your claim of his ridiculous exaggeration.  please and thanks.

The appropriate question is where is the prrof that Souhan was right.  The burden is on him to support it, not on everyone else to refute it.  You can't throw out a claim like that and expect it to be assumed accurate until someone provides proof to the contrary. 

Probably like everyone else on this site, I don't have knowledge of Mauers injurys, so you have to listen to people who are closer to the situation.  I would think Souhan & Reusse are closer to the clubhouse and would have better information on the culture.  I'm not hearing any teammates jumping out and defending Mauer toughness.  The only time I remember anyone talking about was Torii Hunter, who basically agreed with Souhan & Reusse.

 

All that being said, Mauer just need to go out and play 150 games and drive in 100 runs.  It's really up to him to show he can still produce.

Others players have defended him before.  Perkins here for example.  But Souhan didn't ask any other players for comment here, and they're not going to pro-actively address something like this. 

I don't know what Hunter said, but much as I loved watching him as a player, his memory is questionable.

And while the local scribes may be closer to the team and have more access than us,  that doesn't mean that they are always right, or that their word should be taken as gospel.

I always had the feeling that Gardy was being ordered to protect Mauer by the front office and did so grudgingly.

I am guessing the FO does push for longer rest periods.  But we all know Gardy could be persuaded by a veteran demanding to play.  One Kurt Suzuki is a great example of this (he caught 119 games as a 31 year old and played in another 12).

While the financial commitment is very different between Mauer and Suzuki, I can't recall a single instance  in Mauer's career where he argued to remain in a game or argued with the training staff, coaches, etc. to come back from an injury prior to anyone wanting him to.

I don't think the guy has a paper cut and misses a game, but I do think some players in the league play through things that he does not.  Whether he lacks fire or is just more cautious (or smart) I am not sure.

Others players have defended him before.  Perkins here for example.  But Souhan didn't ask any other players for comment here, and they're not going to pro-actively address something like this. 

 

I don't know what Hunter said, but much as I loved watching him as a player, his memory is questionable.

 

And while the local scribes may be closer to the team and have more access than us,  that doesn't mean that they are always right, or that their word should be taken as gospel.

HomeSportsTwins/MLB

Twins: Mauer might have to learn how to pace himself

Article by: LA VELLE E. NEAL III , Star Tribune Updated: June 7, 2007 - 11:54 PM

"I think some people take pain in different ways," Twins center fielder Torii Hunter said. "Some people have to play at 100 percent, and Joe may be one of those guys. I've seen it happen. Joe is a good player, and he wants to perform at 100 percent, not at 80 percent.

Here's Hunter's comments from 2007.

If an injury prevents you from playing at the required level or if playing through it increases the risk of making it worse, you should take a break.

 

The "tough guy, gutting it out " meme is so tired and cliche. The sports world is filled with macho idiots who put themselves at further risk and weaken their teams by trying to maintain an image, one that at the end of the day is a self centered one, not one that is about the team.

 

Brett Favre could possibly be the poster boy for this attitude, the guy was all about himself, lol.

While I too think Favre is selfish and arrogant, I view this a little differently. 

I think Favre knew that at 80%, he was still better than a healthy backup.  In the case of Mauer, it is hard to see how Mauer at 80% is not better than Drew Butera, Fryer, and the rest of the backups we had while he was a catcher.  Even if playing through something prolonged it a day or two, a hall of fame caliber player at 80% is going to exceed the output of a bench guy in most cases.

I am speculating that was part of Hunter's frustration and the reason for the comment.

Well, that assumes that Mauer could have played at 80%.  But we don't know that and frankly, neither does Hunter.

I noticed Hunter also went with the Favre tough guy schtick there:

"Me, I grew up in a different time. I'm ready to play no matter what -- broken toe, hamstring, groin, back -- and that's the mentality I've grown to have."

I'm with twinsnorth, this is macho silliness.  Instead of making it the analysis of risk vs. reward that it should be, it gets made into this thing about manhood where you play "no matter what'.  (And Torii has missed time due to injury in his career, so clearly he does not play "no matter what".)

But getting back to the Souhan's original comment:  I would believe that Mauer has been held out of the lineup on days he could have played.  But Souhan said Mauer begged out of the lineup because of a bruise.  That I do not find believable at all.

I think as a summary on this thread.....

These are facts:

Some people call Mauer soft. Columnists, fans, and at least one ex player.

Nobody (to my knowledge) has ever described the guy as gritty, hard nosed, or tough. 

The press (to my knowledge) has never ran a story or mentioned how Mauer argued to stay in a game or come back from an injury earlier than anyone wanted, or praised him for fighting through anything.  That includes the first 6-7 years of his career prior to this large contract.

What it means is speculation.  It could be bad luck, him being cautious, could be that he doesn't want to fight through anythiing, or it could be that he is a victim of unfair attacks for a number of reasons (money, jealousy, etc.)

My personal opinion is that he does not play through things that some people would play through. That is not proveable or falsifiable.   Why he does not play through things I don't know. It could be that he has high expectations for himself and playing at 80% would not meet those expectations. If it is the latter, the contract probably plays a role because he knows the contract has raised everyone elses expectations as well. 

I think as a summary on this thread.....

 

These are facts:

 

Some people call Mauer soft. Columnists, fans, and at least one ex player.

 

Nobody (to my knowledge) has ever described the guy as gritty, hard nosed, or tough. 

 

The press (to my knowledge) has never ran a story or mentioned how Mauer argued to stay in a game or come back from an injury earlier than anyone wanted, or praised him for fighting through anything.  That includes the first 6-7 years of his career prior to this large contract.

Sore hip won't stop Mauer from catching

Mauer playing through all kinds of pain

Examples in addition to the one I posted earlier in the thread.

Sore hip won't stop Mauer from catching

 

Mauer playing through all kinds of pain

 

Examples in addition to the one I posted earlier in the thread.

Allow me to revise my statement.

The information available questioning Mauer's toughness versus praising him is weighted heavily on the questioning his toughness side. 

Allow me to revise my statement.

 

The information available questioning Mauer's toughness versus praising him is weighted heavily on the questioning his toughness side. 

Information?  You've cited other people's opinions and perceptions.  That's not information. 

The fact that a viewpoint is shared by a couple of local writers who like to stir up the hornet's nest, a bunch of ranting keyboard warriors in the Strib comments section, and one former teammate whose mouth moves faster than his brain does not give it legitimacy.

Information?  You've cited other people's opinions and perceptions.  That's not information. 

 

The fact that a viewpoint is shared by a couple of local writers who like to stir up the hornet's nest, a bunch of ranting keyboard warriors in the Strib comments section, and one former teammate whose mouth moves faster than his brain does not give it legitimacy.

The topic is subjective. We can parse words all we want.  I stated it was a fact that people in the media, fans, and ex player have questioned his toughness and that the opinions out there are weighted to the side of Mauer not being a tough player versus being a tough player. 

I didn't say it is a fact that Mauer is not tough.  Then I offered my opinion.  It is impossible to prove that, or disprove it.

Talking football injury versus baseball injury - it's a much bigger deal for an NFL starter to miss one game than it is for an MLB starter to miss 5 games. In the NFL, each game has playoff implications, and one missed game is missing a good chunk of the regular season.  

For Mauer to sit out of Gardenhire's lineup for a few days doesn't likely change the Twins' place in the standings.

For Farve to stay in the game at 80% or even 60% is much more important to the team's season and final standings. Quarterbacks especially, since they touch the ball on nearly every offensive play, are in a different category in terms of playing through injury.

When Mauer was catching, he had a bigger impact on the outcome of the game, but now that he's at first base, it doesn't really bother me if he needs an extra day. I expect that will happen to everyday players at various points in the season.

I'm still curious how 2015 will shake itself out - will Molitor give Mauer the same day-to-day treatment that Gardy has, or will he force Mauer to choose between the starting lineup and the DL?

I don't know that Mauer is all that tough of an athlete, however to be fair, it's probably not something that should be determined by weighing pro/con voices in the media or fandom.  After all, the media get more hits the more critical they are of local athletes, and of course the fans opinions are (sadly) all too often formed by what guys like Souhan says.

I agree we don't know Mauer toughness, but it seems we have less faith in the reporting of someone who has access to the athletes than a national reporter who probably has never stepped into the Twins locker room.  It looks like most people are informed by want they want to believe and considering another view is not an option.

I'd argue those saying he isn't tough have no idea. They aren't in the locker, they aren't trainers, they don't know if he's asked to stay in games. But, they are certain he's just not tough.

 

I'd guess he's tougher than most here are giving him credit for, but I don't know that.....and I have no faith that Souhan is a reporter. That's not his job.

I don't mean to pile on you Mike.  I have seen this line of thought from a million others as well. But I really don't understand this meme, which is quite common here.  You have no idea....or we have no idea why Joe wasn't playing, or how hurt he was. What others in the locker room think of him.  Or we have no idea why Pinto is not catching. Or for that matter whether or not we tried signing a guy or trading for another.  Or what dollar amount the Pohlads would go up to.

This entire site is 95% opinion and speculation.  To my knowledge none of us are insiders.  So whenever people disagree it is easy to say they don't know or they can't prove something.

Except people aren't saying opinions, they are saying factual stuff, like "he never asks to play". You have been clear here that it is your opinion, but others are clearly stating "facts" that are not so. 

 

I'll just let it drop. we have no idea.

I have not followed the thread enough to read that from others. I thought that was aimed at me.  Thanks for the clarification. 

Look I don't truly know whether Mauer is tough or not.  I've never claimed to.  I was just trying to refute the line of thinking that because Souhan, a bunch of fans, and possibly one former teammate with a penchant for saying ludicrous things think he is, there must be something to it.

I have no inside access to what goes on behind the scenes. 

But I can see what happens on the field and draw some conclusions from that. For example I think what Mauer was able to accomplish from '08-10 tends to refute Hunter's 2007 comment.  I don't see how you excel as an MLB catcher to that degree while lacking toughness.  To me, it's also not particularly suggestive of a guy who "begs" out of the lineup because of a bruise.